does this count as an apology?<BR>H came home "early" wednesday-630pm-as i was so sick i could barely stand, and made me dinner, brought me roses, and packed for a "three day trip to san diego". he called me ONCE on thursday pm, said he would call again, may have, but i was online, and has not returned any of several pages i sent yesterday and today, or answered his cell phone the one time i called.<BR>how can he remain so oblivious of my need to have verification of his whereabouts to trust him? i guess he's "too busy" for me?<BR>oh well, it is this continual crap that totally empties my lovebank and keeps me plotting to leave as soon as i can.<BR>i know, i know, im still "hormonal" and tired from the baby (2 weeks old, and a 2 yo), but dang, this sucks. the only thing that keeps me going is planning my "escape" from this miserable marriage. outwardly, i never mention it to him, i just plunder along, doing the best i can, being reasonably polite, and avoiding lovebusters to the best of my ability. i feel like he is doing the same thing. i'm waiting for the bomb to drop....again. he tries to be reassuring ("im HERE, aren't i?"), but there is just so little between us now....<BR>sorry, i just had to let this out. i feel that if he calls me now, i'll spill the beans, which would be generally bad for the children's welfare at this point, as he is providing a very nice lifestyle for us, even though he is barely home.<BR>well, im probably just upset, as usual, that he is not here (who can blame me? conditioned response...he lived with OW for months without my knowledge, how can i possibly trust him yet?).<BR>sigh. thanks for being here, y'all.<BR>julie<P>------------------<BR>for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer, till death do us part.<P><BR>

The only problem I have with your "plans" is that they are secret. If you are not happy and plan to leave then I think this should be made known. Deceipt from you is not justified due to receipt from him. Be honest and straight forward. Riding out a situation due to financial comfortability is wrong.<P>Communicate your needs to him, if he does not respond inform him of your plans for leaving. Honesty, the only right way.

Paul, How come your never wrong...<P>lWb,<BR>Absolutely... lWb... you need to communicate your feelings. Men, in general, need a brick over their heads to bring their attention level back from a "child's level".<P>Seriously...<BR>Please talk to your H...<BR>He doesn't know the heartache, trauma, and utter despair he will be causing you and the kids and himself! It isn't lovebusting to be honest... it's loving. Just say it with loving feelings, intead of hateful accusations. If he doesn't take the opportunity to respond... you'll never be able to blame yourself... but only if you're honest with him <B>now</B>!<P>Jim<P>----------<BR>I can dare myself... I'll put a pebble in my shoe...<BR>I can walk... I can walk! I shall call the pebble Dare...<BR>Dare shall be carried... And when we both have had enough<BR>I will take him from my shoe, singing... "Meet your new road!"...<BR>Finally glad... Finally glad... That you are here... By my side...

LWB I know that this is in no way giving you answers or helping your situation.<BR>Just want you to know that I was there ( minus the little one, mine were 5 and 8), and that I also got the "I'm here aren't I" thing. I also felt like giving up and couldn't see much going the way I needed it.<BR>However, I did hang in there for a bit longer, and guess what? Even he admits now that the line was stupid and uncaring. He's been very thoughfull of my needs ever since, and I'm doing the same in regards to him. It's working great, but it did take quite a while.<BR>We're rolling into the second year since it all started ( or it will be next June) and many things just got perfect ( as much as possible ) this summer.<BR>Having the little one, and having to handle the situation, all those things can also make it look worse ( I know that by experience ) so just try to take care of you and the kids, and give it some time.<BR>Take care<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

well, you two ARE right, i know i should be honest with him, but i have told him "i'm leaving" so much that it no longer has any effect. financial comfort or no, it would really take quite a while for me to make it on my own, simply because it is important to me to be home and breastfeed the baby until she is 6 months old, THEN i could get a job, hopefully a part-time one. Really, though, the child support would be enough for me to stay home whith them, so if i wanted to leave, i could do it ASAP, but that would not feel right. it is easier to bide my time and worry what he's gonna pull next, then to expend effort i don't have. conversely, things might improve, and i am just not at a point where i can visualize it.<BR>waffle, waffle. so, isn't it better that i quietly contemplate my options before i bring them up with him? i seriously doubt he would be surprised if i left, he knows my life is "miserable". <BR>a big problem i have with him today, is that he is on this trip, without attempting to communicate, after being SOOOOOO nice to me on wednesday, and frankly, it is grossly suspiscious. i mean, he really overdid it ...roses, dinner, slept in the same bed with me (never does that-"allergic" to my bedroom), told me i'm a great mother...<BR>nope, sorry, i don't trust him any further than i can throw OW's piano (which is in my living room, and i asked her repeatedly to remove it, via email, and was ignored).<BR>ok, im rambling now, sorry, just have to get all this out....

thanks, kat, that makes it seem a little better

julie - Belated congrats on the baby! Apologize for somehow missing the blessed event before. I'm sure you must have posted about it. Guess I've just been too much into my own stuff, of which there's been a lot - way too much really - lately.<P>I'd like to hear what your escape plans are and STRONGLY disagree with Paul and NSR that you should tell your H about them. From your description, it sounds like he's really NOT doing his part to restore your trust in him or even just be helpful. I think you're right to have your plans, as it does sound from your post like you've pretty much given up on him. I'm sure not going to try and argue you out of this feeling. I think there does finally come a point where this happens. Otherwise we just destroy ourselves over the kinds of feelings we have towards a betraying spouse. We tear and rend ourselves emotionally over them. (Definitely been there, am there.) Gosh, yours is a tough situation with a newborn and a small child and I really do feel for you. Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

thanks, wex.<BR>well, so far, it is just a general "feeling" of needing "out". i could move home with my mom, or to his condo, both in hawaii, but i think it would be better to keep him and the kids in contact. he's a good dad, when he's around. mostly, i could just find an apartment and some kind of office job and quality daycare (which is what hurts, i love being home with the babies, and H has really denigrated me for it, because we have a lot of debt).<BR>i have not really taken steps to leave..i have no money in the bank, haven't looked for a job...well, i AM sort of busy (babies, babies everywhere...even the gov't gives you 12 weeks off, and i've had 2.5 so far!)<BR>I just know, in my heart, that life can be better, and it is hard to imagine life being better with him. i forgave him after first discovery last summer, but forgiving him after second discovery this summer is much more difficult (he kept seeing her off and on, lived with her, and told her he loved her right in front of me on the phone-3way conversation). <BR>he is polite to me, and we get along ok, but i can feel this horrible undercurrent of hatred between us, and he is reluctant to do the things that would let me trust him again. <BR>it's somewhere between purgatory and hell, at this point.

I agree with Wexwill. I used to think that everyone deserved honesty, but not anymore. Your child's welfare is more important than your husband's feelings, especially when he shows little or no effort to work at your marriage. He continually shows his disrespect for your feelings, there is no reason to show any respect for his. That is how it works. Apologies don't mean much unless they are followed up with some kind of concrete action, which doesn't appear he is doing. So his apologies are just words... <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited October 23, 1999).]

LWB - After reading your last post, it definitely sounds to me like you need to get away from your H. His apologies aren't sincere and it doesnt really sound like he's making any effort to change things. It does sound miserable for you, and I feel really bad that things have come to this for you.<P>You do have a full time job - as a mother. And not just a mother, but a very caring mother who's devoted to being a mother. That's worth more than anyone can say and you should take as much comfort in that as you can and look to your children for your real joy in life. So I don't think you should feel guilty about asking your H for support when you leave. The part-time job option sounds maybe workable, as it would still give you a fair amount of time with your little ones. So the plan is, wait until your newborn is old enough for daycare, then find a part-time job, move into an apt, and get your H to pay you support? Sounds to me like it will work, and then you'll reclaim your life. Also, try and think of your present situation as purgatory not hell. Hell is forever, but we can work our way out of purgatory. That's what it's for. R & B,<P>--Wex

Hi LWB,<BR> I agree with Wexwill,if you think he is not being honest with you and not respecting your feelings, you need to look out for yourself and your two little ones.....in fact in Harley's books he says to NOT inform the other person if you are planning Plan B , you are not dealing with someone who can be trusted.....Lu

I disagree WEX!!! I'm not saying one bit that she should stay. I'm saying she should tell her H this and give him a chance to rectify the situation. From what she says she has told him so I do agree that she may need to leave but I still do not agree on the hiding of plans and feelings

paul, it is not as though i will just up and leave, without giving him a chance to make amends. yes, that would be horrible.<BR>im just planning for the eventuality that things DON'T get better. As much as i once loved him, there is just nothing there right now (btw, it is saturday night, and he has not called since thursday afternoon, or returned pages--he KNOWS that grates me, yet still demands that i trust him without proof).<BR>as lu and wex and thestudent are pointing out, my welfare and my babies welfare are more important than his feelings, at this point, and i really need to consider steps to protect us...which is not to say that he would ever NOT protect us--well, except for the unprotected sex with OW while i was pregnant!-- but i just can't live without love and trust in my life.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by love WAS blind (edited October 23, 1999).]

HI LWB, i must have been gone when the beautiful baby was born!! Congratulations on the birth.<BR>He is still being kind of insensitive huh? And you are still recovering from the birth and caring for a toddler. Lots of responsibility with little help from him? What does he say when you talk to him about these issues and yoru needs? I hope that you shared with him that this was not a real good time to go to SD? And did he respond with any feelings? Any emotions? <BR>Sorry, but I have to agree with wex and stuident that you should not tell him of your plans to leave someday. If he is refusing to grow-up and be a good husband and semi-responsible father, then why would he deserve to know what your thoughts and feelings are? You have told him in the past and he just is not listening.<BR>Need to get the frying pan...who has it? <BR>Please tell us abuot the baby! Scan a photo for us in your free time too! <BR>

hey cl. my sweet darling baby girl was born 10-6. H was there, except for 2 hours, when he went *alone?* to have a $37 steak dinner. hmmmm. but seriously, he has pretty much fallen in love with her, and even told me i'm a good mother. of course, he has not been around much...working so hard at his "start up" company, and he deals with the computer network, so has to do a lot of afterhours work (and yes, he works a full week all the time, of course).<BR>anyway, neither of us is being terribly loving, but we are very polite, and he is really thoughtful, always bring me little gifts-even a candybar from the vending machine...cute, but i wish he'd stop teasing my post partum thighs!!!<BR>one thing i KNOW is, if i make plans to leave, that will make me more attractive to him, because i think he really likes me to be motivated and "doing", which is hard for him to see me be with the babies when he is home so little.<BR>i dunno, i'm just in forced limbo for awhile, but i love being with the kids, so that is just my main goal till the little one starts eating solids , THEN i can consider 'getting a life'. part of me wants the freedom, and part of me wants my marriage to improve and my kids to have a stable happy life with both birth parents. que sera, sera.<BR>one word that always wakes H up? STEPFATHER.<BR>he hates the idea of his son having one (and now his daughter), so i save that as heavy artillary...<P>ps, oh yeah, i told him how hard it is for me to be doing this alone ALL THE TIME, but he makes very little effort to be home more. he did tell me not to worry about sending the toddler to the part time daycare across the street a lot, if i have to, which is nice, but it ain't the same as him being home early occassionally, so i could go to the gym, or a whole weekend, so we could do things around the house. at least he helps with dinner most nights, and takes the toddler on errands on the weekends to give me a couple hours respite <P><p>[This message has been edited by love WAS blind (edited October 23, 1999).]

well, H finally called. i didn't get up to answer the phone, i was so comfy on the couch with the baby, and half asleep, but he left about 3 messages saying how sorry he was that his cell phone didn't work "in the desert" where he was (so why is he always showing his pretty company phone card to everyone? does it work? did he see NO OTHER phone for 2 days?).<BR>If i just lower my expectations, i won't be disappointed, right....?<BR>sigh.

Hi LWB ... congrats about the baby, have been here off and on lately, but must have missed it! Just a gentle reminder ... don't forget what the hormones can do to you at this stage postnatally... often messes your mind around a lot. You need to give yourself time to get over the "hormonal rearrangement" which takes place after childbirth before trying to look too realistically about your life and where you are at. Get yourself lots of rest when you can, and be gentle on yourself - look after yourself, because you are no good to anyone if YOU aren't looked after. ( The mother and midwife in me talking .... boy, have I seen and experienced what those hormones can do to your thought patterns!!! )<p>[This message has been edited by sosad (edited October 24, 1999).]

lwb--<P>hang in there. you have two little ones depending on you! congratulations on the little one's birth to both of you! <P>here's my two cents, and some q's. would your H be acting like this w/out the new addition to the family? (all the work, cell phone difficulties, and the possibility of time with OW) I'm just wondering--maybe he's simply acting like a man who is being insensitive to the change a baby makes, expecting YOU to make all the adjustments. this is fairly common (not "right," but common). <P>you might want to wait awhile before making any decisions...the baby is so brand-new, and your hormones are still settling back down. maybe right now, you could remain calm while discussing things with your H, and tell him truthfully when he does things that hurt you. tell him WHY it hurts you. then try to express that you need him, and his help--could he arrange to spend more time with you. and...is there anything you could help him with work-wise to accomplish that (a nice touch when showing you need something, that you're willing to help him TOO, whether he needs it or not). <P>I think men are much more logical, and accepting of how THEY perceive situations. he may think you've got your hands full with the new baby, so why ask for your help? he may be feeling low-man-on-the-totem-pole as your attention is pulled away from him by the children, and doesn't know how to reach you, so instead of "bothering" you with his thoughts he simply doesn't. listen to him too whenever you have the chance to open him up. if he feels he has your attention, you may be surprised what his feelings are if he'll only share with you. <P>hmmm...ask him if work calls have also suffered due to the desert scene, can you return any calls for him with a brief message until he's able to return calls? (helpful, and answers q's you're wondering at the same time) <P>just random thoughts. hope all goes well for you, whatever you decide to do.

Congratulations on the birth of your little girl!! She was born 6 months to the day after my little girl! How did it go? <P>I'd like to say a couple of quick things, for what they're worth. I haven't read through every single response here, so I hope I don't offend anyone.<P>I've been having a REALLY hard time since my H moved back in with keeping realistic expectations of him. It seems to be getting worse each day. The only thing that keeps me going is that we're working with our marriage counsellor (Steve Harley) to come up with a gameplan to rebuild our marriage. We've tried doing this on our own and haven't been able to do it. It's like we're lost in a maze of lies and resentment and can't figure out where to start. There's so much that needs to change!<P>lWb, I'm not sure where you're at exactly with your marriage. I don't know what your goals are right now. I do think it is important to be honest with your H, without threatening him. I fantasize about being away from my H. I've been reading LoveBusters, and Dr. Harley discusses the importance of being honest with your spouse about your feelings. If you're not, there's no way you can fix the problems. You're just buying your time until the relationship is over.<P>I think you can tell your spouse "when you do X, I feel (feeling), and I think about leaving you." I don't think this means you need to give the details of where and when.<BR>These feelings need to be shared. It can be done in a constructive, non-lovebusting way.<P>give kisses to your babies...<BR>Lizbeth