Let me start off by saying I spend most of my time on the SAA boards. I have read most everything Dr. Harley has written. I also practice what Jesus teaches by forgiving people (my spouse) for their failures first instead of getting angry or yelling.

Any comments or criticisms are welcome because I can't figure out what to do anymore. I'm sick of apologizing. I'm tired of the emotional storms, anger and bitterness. I'm sick of being lonely and blamed. Could I just have one day without conflict? There never seems to be any peace. We bounce from one emotional crisis to another without end. I can see my marriage dying and I don�t care anymore. What little time we do have together is generally ruined by her being constantly upset or offended at stuff like:

1) Last month BIL and a cousin's business partnership erupted into a family feud which my wife became emotionally distraught over (her- �they are calling my brother a LIAR�). Wife had to get involved and my critique of her draft letter wasn't received well. I said it was too wordy and would be inflammatory. But it wasn't what I said it was �the way I said it� that made her upset. I apologize.

2) Approx 3 weeks ago 18 yr old son tells us his 19 yr old GF of 2 years is pregnant. They are both still living at respective homes. On top of it they waited so long to tell anyone the baby will be here 4/15/10. We asked in Dec. but they denied. This sent my wife into a tailspin for 4 days while she copes and of course is generally depressed and gets new Rx for anxiety which turns her into a zombie.

3) Wife goes out and buys new iPhone without POJA. I call her on it, she gets mad at me for not being happy for her. Finally after some carefully chosen words (no yelling) from me she sees the light and understands why I was upset (independent behavior) and offers apology.

4) 3/20/10 Wife goes away for weekend with 15 yr old daughter to the LAST cheerleading competition. She has been cheering for 8 years and it has become so unenjoyable for daughter and wife that I finally have wife�s support to not re-enroll daughter. Nevermind the $3000+ annual costs. I arrive at last event in a nick of time which upsets wife. In fact we didn�t have a set plan- just that I would be there for the show. Upon seeing wife, its obvious she is upset. She tells me so and tells me how �emotional� she is about this being the last competition and implying I wasn�t there to support her.

5) Wife returns home Sunday evening 3/21/10 and gets upset with me because I failed over the weekend to remove the box spring on our front porch. She brought this up two times while out of town expressing her �need� to not have a �Sanfor d & Sons� house. My defense: my tools were on loan to BIL so I had nothing to disassemble it with. After retrieving tools on Monday I take care of boxspring on Tuesday. This ruins the precious 2 hours that we could have spent together on Sunday evening.

6) Monday: wife has another �emotional� scared day because pregnant girlfriend did not feel the baby move for 4 hours which turns into a non-event. We usually talk daily while working but I was busy at work and didn�t call her this day. When I get home she looks miserable and defeated.

7) Yesterday: Wife expressing foul mood and frustrated that she can�t DVR American Idol because AT&T hardware is malfunctioning. Asks me why I didn�t fix it yet. God I hate that show.

8) This morning I ask if she can drive our 8 yr old to school. She declines and says too busy and has one appt at 8am. I ask half sarcastically how one appt is a busy day? Whoops. She is offended. Morning ruined so badly we don�t kiss goodbye. At this point I really don�t want to apologize because I know she thinks this is all my fault and I know I won�t be getting any kind words from her. I was all at once misunderstanding her answer, inquiring and being jokingly sarcastic. Kind of like Hey can we ever have a light and feel good playful day? Can I ever crack a joke without offending her? Guess not.

I called her at 3pm "Honey I'm sorry if I came across rudely this morning. I didn't understand what you meant when you said you were swamped but only had one appt."
Her: �Why couldn�t you have said that this morning when I got upset about it?�

The conversation devolves into silence. She asks what we should do? I reply, �The best thing we could do is for me to apologize for being rude (which I just did) and you to apologize for being so offended like �I�m sorry too for being so offended or overreacting or getting angry because I know you weren�t trying to be mean.� That�s all. But nope. She replies �I am NOT going to apologize for being offended. You were the one being rude �blah blah blah.� It�s obvious we are getting nowhere so we agree to table it for after work. No ownership from her. Just her demands on me to take 100% responsibility.

On top of all that I also have had 2 women crying in my office in the last 4 days adding to and overwhelming my emotional capacity. I think of myself as a fairly enlightened male and I understand the inner workings of female�s emotional worlds thanks to lots of reading, Dr. Harley, Mber forums, and For Men Only: A Straightforward Guide to the Inner Lives of Women, Jeff Feldhahn but I have had enough.

I think about it from my view: for instance when I get home from work and I know my wife has been busy working and dinner is not even a thought yet, do I berate her for it? No. I offer to cook, or eat out or pick something up or � Not subject her to condemnation or anger.

Ladies, No offense intended but do you ever step out of your emotions, get a little perspective and say to yourself maybe �I should give my spouse a break for a day or a week?� I just can�t do this anymore. We never have fun anymore, just arguments and who said what and blame and me apologizing and her being unhappy. I don�t even like going home because every interaction is so draining. Help.

Question:


Would you & your wife be willing to use a Marriage Coach?

Also, can I be honest and say....

1) I am seeing quite a bit of DJ from you towards her (and females in general.)

2) Be thankful that she's sharing her concerns with you - even though they appear to be disjointed & highly emotional "complaints". At least she isn't in Withdrawl. That's much harder to deal with.

I do it now and then. I should probably do it more.

I hate American Idol too

Your life is filled with melodrama, most of which is not of your own making. I wish I had words of wisdom, but I don't.

Did she ask for a critique of her letter?

Why don't you take care of stuff around the house? Go back and read what you've written...you're basically complaining that your wife isn't happy when you fail to do things. Um, there's a quick fix solution...do them! Or at least be honest that you will not.

Here's your problem, in a nutshell:

Bam!

Let's see - I can see her point about the bed on the porch, especially if she asked twice - hard to believe you couldn't find a couple of tools SOMEWHERE.

I would be very upset about the pregnancy too. That would put me in a bad mood for awhile.

Just in the nick of time for the cheerleading would make me PO'd.

Is the DVR fixed yet?

She apologized for getting the phone.

An appointment at 8:00AM makes one too busy to drive to school.

You DO sound like a good husband and father.

How is the SF going?

What would she do if you gave her the list and told her you are feeling like nothing you do is right and could she let up 3 days a week?

It sounds like they are in the Conflict state & the time is ripe for some Coaching sessions

Let me add to the continuing saga because in a post above people said it sounds like a state of conflict but they did not read closely enough. I am in a state of withdrawal. I feel like moving out.

It�s all too obvious that my main complaint is we do not spend enough UA time together. Dr. Harley wouldn't even want to coach us at this point because she won't say no to enough other things to make our marriage the priority it needs to be.

This week I asked her to write me one thing expressing her love to me. Nothing. But I know she had lots of time for extensive emails between her parents and aunt to mediate their never ending dispute that I pointed out has been going on since last year.

She works full time so the money is nice but Tuesday I asked her to make dinner. She didn�t. Too busy with work she said. So I wonder why is this NOT the same as her request to me to dispose of the boxspring? She asked for domestic support. When I forgot she let me know pointedly how upset she was which ruined the only 2 hours we had together over the entire weekend. When I tried to point out that I wasn�t going to let this ruin our evening together she hung up the phone on me. She didn�t get around to my request for domestic support (cooking) and if I would have gotten upset about that OMG look out. But my error, according to her views, wasn�t the same and she could not believe that I was trying to compare the two events. So once again I say sorry, sorry for forgetting to remove boxspring, sorry for comparing dinner to boxspring.

After the iPhone incident I could see what was coming next. No more talking to wife because she is too busy facebooking on her iPhone. I tried to tell her that her life cannot always be additive. We cannot have it all. Both full time jobs, a perfect lawn, a pool & hottub, watching all her tv shows Bones, American Idol, etc. be great parents to our 3 children and now a grandchild, go to the gym 3 x�s per week, and church, care for 2 dogs (one diabetic) & a cat, a non stop social life that she never says no to when her mostly single friends want to go to the club. Oh but she will text me from the bar at midnight about how much she loves me. crumbs. Another Chicago trip this time for her cousin�s son�s 1 year birthday party which took up 36 hours of a weekend. Is it obvious yet that her immediate & extended family have always been more important than our marriage and me?

In 2007 I used MBers as a tool to survive her adultery. It worked for me but she never bought into 15 hours of UA. Even after reading HNHN she continuously makes excuses that we have too much going on in our lives to find 15 hours together. So here I sit growing more distant every day. I�m trying hard to understand how a person justifies divorce. When is enough enough? I can see the patterns will never stop and I long for a spouse that will start with forgiveness and end with UA for our mutual needs. Someone who has tenderness as her MO.

Last night we tried to take a walk together. Upon leaving, our elderly dog exited the house with us but my plan was to leave him on the porch because he can�t keep up. Of course that plan wasn�t good enough for her so in an exasperated tone I said �Could we just do it my way once? I know the dog enjoys sitting on the porch.� Of course that ruined the rest of the night for us because she was upset over what she perceived as me trying to �win.�

This morning I tried to tell her about how lonely and sad I am. Her response was nothing but a sharp tongue, anger and refusing to take any ownership. I said �Honey, your adultery in 2007 broke my heart into thousands of pieces and right now I feel its being held together by bandaids.� She tells me I need to see a counselor to get over her adultery because she will not let me keep throwing it in her face since it has now been 2.5 years. I said �Honey I know this seems silly but I am jealous of the dog who gets your love and hugs every morning and night.� Her response was �Well the dog doesn�t give me a choice she just jumps into my arms.� Then I think about how I asked for SF the night before and was turned down because she was too tired. We all know I could never just not give her the choice.

Note 1:

Are you sure the adultery ever ended? Does she still work with the OM?

This doesn't sound like the lifestyle of a married woman. It sounds like the lifestyle of a cheater trying to wean herself off her husband and onto a new man while justifying it as an "exit affair".

The two of you will never be in love without 20+ hours of UA time per week. More like 30 at this point.

You sound as if you're still willing... but she's not. I cannot recommend in stronger terms that the two of you contact Jennifer Harley Chalmers for some coaching sessions. Or do a MarriageBuilders weekend. Obviously she's still the reluctant spouse... and the fact you're posting here says you're the willing spouse, but you're on the edge of being "done"...

Note 2:

You guys are Love-Busting each other into oblivion. I can understand based on what you've written why she doesn't want to spend 15 hours with you. You are both making that time extremely unpleasant for one another.

Do you have enough left in the tank to give a go one more time of an effective Plan A? Do you have enough energy left to verify that she's maintaining no contact with the other man, and hasn't started up a new affair? Or are you just done?

Basic questions: is she con'ting an affair? I have no concerns about that. It is over. She became a great liar but she was always honest outside that time frame. I have all access and have snooped.

ok how about another example. Friday we acted as if nothing really happened. We had pleasantries while passing by each other running separate errands, deliver kids, etc. One note of coincidence- Friday night had dinner & movie with 3 male friends. First one divorced 10 yrs ago, remarried and recently complained that his wife gets angry over "everything". Meanwhile his ex is badmouthing him on Facebook- still! After 10 years. 2nd one basically just finished his divorce, 3rd one is just starting it. No kidding. My wife commented that must mean the odds are with us to stay together- good sign.

Sat. went off well. Very well. I'll leave it at that.

Then today- SUnday, Easter Sunday. Arrived at church on time- quite a feat with this entourage. Wife in good spirits. Children suprisingly compliant and teenagers not frowning. Service was soso. Leaving church I tune in some incredible jazz and take the back roads to her mothers (more direct but slower) vs. the highway and BAM, she LB's with an AO about how hungry she is, "didn't I think! about which route to take" and blah blah blah irritated, bit-c-h-ing, moaning about the Sunday driver in front of us...I felt like screaming ITS SUNDAY EASTER SUNDAY FOR CHRISTS SAKE AND WE JUST CAME FROM CHURCH. All puns intended and the fact that the irony was lost on her just kills me.

I sat there sorta stunned like OMG how could you be upset when no matter which way we take it will be at most 10 minutes. I didn't say much just sorta shrugged and said IDK. I mean really do we have to POJA the route we take to f'n Grandmas house????? This is sorta what I meant last post about me letting the dog out and her insisting on her approach. She has to control basically every turn we take even when we have been there 3000 times before.

Upon arrival at G's house she approached me and said something about she knows it really wasn't necessary to flip out about that so ..... "lets not let it ruin our day". RIght. Not a I'm sorry honey please forgive me.. Nope. I just hope you can deal with it , basically code for don't embarrass me in front of my family. I went to the bathroom and cried.

I will try to talk to her tomorrow but only if her mood is ok or better. I'll let ya all know how it goes.

She sounds very immature and abusive and you sound like an enabler and a doormat. How will you ever get a better marriage if you let her go out with friends night after night spending more quality time with them than with you? For all you know, she is getting male attention when she barhops. Does she go out dancing with other guys?

Her moods are destructive and she sounds like she loves loves loves DRAMA.

But then, you love DRAMA too, since you can stand to be married to MRS DRAMA here.

She could care less who her moods hurt. Has she always been this selfish?

B4U,
Thanks for your reply. Her nights out used to be very much for guys attention but that has changed and it really is for a 'girls' night nowadays.

But the reason I don't put up a fight about her ignoring our lack of quality time is because its a welcome respite for me from her anger and constant state of being irritated by e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g. (see [url=http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2302743#Post2302743][/url]

Even just last night I was on the receiving end of more negative attitude which is just shocking since yesterday was the BIRTHDATE of our 1st grandchild. We waited all day at the hospital and the perfect ending of an absolutely beautiful granddaughter was tarnished because she was upset that I wasn't home when she got home. period. ITs like she just refuses to be happy, ever.

BP,

Congratulations, Grandpa!!!!

I see a mutual POV in your posts...

both you and your w choose the belief that one word, one action, one incident can ruin a whole day...week...month...

and I think it's this belief that you choose that will ruin your marriage.

Please choose differently.

You KNOW you can apologize and repair. You can let go once an apology is accepted and understood.

I think you keep this "ruin the whole day, weekend" thing as retaliation for her not apologizing...as you said, not owning what she does.

Well, you certainly don't require she does. In the car, when she AO'd, you can pull over and tell her, in front of the kids, "Angry outbursts hurt. I know you know this. When you apologize, I'll get back on the road, and we can have a great Easter together."

Calm, respectful, firm. It's what you require to continue.

You have a false payoff on "letting" her win, control everything, get her way...it feeds your addiction to resentment and to being controlled. Stop that...I know you did that in battling her A...do it now...because you're still fighting for your marriage.

And you're not fighting HER for it...

you're fighting yourself.

You don't say "Ouch" when she wounds...you expect to lose, cave, give in...when it's your own choice, your power...and internally, you talk yourself around it.

So choose differently. On the beginning of the walk, when you offer you don't want elder dog with you guys and she does, go back in the house after saying, "I look forward to walking with you when we come up with a way together we are happy with."

Do not ask for apologies from her. Make sure you're really owning your choices...because you may have been feeling stabbed in your love bank, in your heart, and half the time, you hold the knife and are looking at her.

Affirm and validate what she says as hers...She saw your lovely, needed radical honesty as you manipulating her, throwing her A "up in her face" again. Validate that for her. That HER POV is that...and yours was that you are holding yourself to acting from honesty...that you feel your love for her, your love bank, being held together by bandaids. That you are considering divorce, trying to find out when to say when, and keeping a score sheet of all your pain from her to help you let go of her emotionally.

Keep speaking honestly...tell her, "I know our marriage will eventually break apart without us playing together 20 hours a week. I know that for my half, I keep talking myself out of really doing it so that I can feel safe away from you. So I know I'm damaging our marriage, too."

Why do you punish yourself with "tarnishing" what only you can tarnish? Listen and repeat for your wife as an act of respect to yourself and the marriage. She was upset. Listen and hand back. Doesn't tarnish the day, the year, the marriage...respects your wife as a complete, separate human being.

As long as you believe she can ruin your expectations of what you want to feel in a day...she can keep proving you the victim.

Not what you want, BP. You're better, bigger, more powerful than that. She feels...and feelings pass. You feel and your feelings pass...and when you stop adding to her previous betrayal with your own...for NOT predetermining your own actions, progressive ones, holding yourself to stay radically, respectfully honest...then you're going to help her drain your love bank.

Remove yourself when she's verbally abusive. Period. You say, "That's abusive" and come back in 10 minutes. Each time you don't remove yourself, you're holding the knife, 'k?

I want you to stop your bleeding. Doesn't mean you'll save your marriage--doesn't mean she'll change--I guarantee your feelings will change when you really change your actions.

And your beliefs. And where your thoughts dwell.

You'll have to do this, anyway, if you guys do divorce. Unless you want to live in this blame game for all your life...and you will live in it, with anyone, everyone, until you stop participating in it.

There's new life in your life, BP. Birth and rebirth are possible...baby grandgirls rock!

LA

LA,
Great to hear from you again. Back in 2007 I recall a similar post from you about owning my stuff and radical honesty, etc. but let me say... Your posts are kind of a cryptic encoded message. I feel like I can only get a small glimpse into the meaning and that I have to re read it many times to find the solutions you are obviously presenting for me to learn. Its like I finally found the holy grail but I can't read Greek. Argh frustrating. But to quote George Castanza "Its not you, its me". I will keep digesting your message.

My very first impression is the moment 'in the car' when you suggest I pull over and address the problem immediately like when adults threaten to pull over to the kids in the back seat who are fighting.. I see this as going very badly. She would just come back with "I can't believe how disrespectful you treated me by stopping the car." Note- she is already super hyper sensitive to appearances. So any "appearence" in front of the kids that I wasn't treating her with the utmost respect would just bring more anger from her.... not sure where to go next. stuck.

And again LA, I really value your responses because I was thinking of visiting my marriage counselor but I feel its mostly just a vent session for me to feel "right" and validated by the counselor for $100. From one novice marriage builder to a MBer Oracle like LA I feel like only you can really provide insight that can move us off stuck. So thank you.

Pssst! Hey bigpicture: I have a tip for you...

If you read LA's posts OUT LOUD to yourself, they are much easier to absorb. I don't know who this works, but it does... at least for me.

:-)

Thanks Telly, I will try that in the car ALONE.

Couple of thoughts:

Have you read up on boundaries? You don't need to take her abusive behavior. You need to figure out what your boundaries are and enforce them. There's a good thread around here, I'll see if I can find it.

Also, YOU are responsible for your happiness, not her. She can't ruin your day unless you LET her. You are giving her too much power over you. The only thing she should be allowed to affect is your love for her - and she seems to be doing a good enough job trampling that. Don't let her drag you down. If you need to, disengage. If she complains she's being disrespected say "I'm sorry but I will not allow myself to be treated this way." And hold firm.

Finally, I can see why she doesn't want to do UA time with you. It is unpleasant. Look at the walk with the dog story - you DID want it YOUR way - at the expense of how she wanted it. That's not POJA. Why would she want to take a walk with you if it's going to turn into a situation like that? You need to make UA time pleasant, and part of that is removing your expectations. Someone around here had a quote "Expectations are premeditated resentments." You're setting yourself up for resenting her.

What I see you saying is "Why can't she do it my way? I want a good time with her and THIS is how I want if. If she just did this everything would be great." That doesn't take into account what is great for her.

Do everything you can to make the little time you have together pleasant - and then she'll want more! Why should she want to make time for something unpleasant? Of course she isn't going to want to do it.

Thank you and Telly for doing a lot of work to understand my posts. You're not alone...I've heard that many times.

I don't do it on purpose. I try my best, go for clarity. I know I'm a lot of work.

I think, though, when something does resonate with you, then you will really know it was already in you. Not taking on what I'm saying as the truth--discovering it's already in you isn't easy. Just simple. Eventually.

You hit on something very close to my heart right now, BP. You considered my advice on allowing yourself to pull over the car and address the AO right then. Then you guessed what the outcome would be and to me, sounds like you would choose to not take the action based on the outcome.

As if you control your wife's reactions, her emotions and her reacting to her emotions. That's hers. Your life experience is based on YOUR choices...which if you make them based on the possible outcome, no longer are yours...that puts her directly in control of you, doesn't it?

Only, she didn't reach in to control you...as you've described many times her thwarting your desires...rather, that's you handing her what is really your power, your choices.

When you develop a code of conduct for yourself, from what you truly believe in, then act from your code, she can't control anything. And none of us controls the outcome...not in our power. We only control our part, our choices as to what actions we take.

Opening your mind (which is now habituated to conflict, contrariness and expected abuse) to other actions you can take, predetermining them...is the way you begin to habituate your mind to new choices by taking them.

When you pull over and address, in a loving, honest voice, you teach your children by example how to really love...not just love easy...love smooth. Not to conflict avoid, or to martyr, or to control someone else by smoothing over conflict. You teach them how to connect through conflict.

And if she does escalate in reaction, then you can turn the car around and go home. You can say, "I understand you're really hungry. I don't know if you intended to be disrespectful and hurtful. I do know that it's really important we honor one another. I know I've harmed our marriage a lot by not requiring you to acknowledge and apologize your acts of disrespect."

Anyone can help you move off stuck by sharing their strength and dedication to not reacting to possible outcomes. No oracle, no healer...that's all inside you. And maybe it's your inner oracle who's been in the business of predicting outcomes for you to make your choices from that you don't want to hear from anymore.

How many times have you not spoken honestly because an inner voice has said, "Wasted effort. Won't work. Won't change anything, anyway"?

Btw, the difference between threatening kids to pull over and pulling over is a big difference. You can't go back and do it...this is you predetermining for next time. Tell your wife your plans to do so if what happened on Sunday were to happen again. No threat...information to what you're committing yourself to doing for the marriage. Because it's number one to you, top priority.

And you can choose to keep that commitment because it keeps your vow to honor The Marriage...even when you don't feel right then like honoring your wife.

Respect is demonstrating you know your wife chooses her actions...her words...her responses...even when she feels otherwise...respect is honoring her own power, her equality to you, and holding true to your own code. Frees you from the blame game and can unleash a lot of loving feelings for your wife.

She's not your enemy. Her emotions are not your enemy. You are not your enemy. Your emotions are not your enemy.

Let her know when you don't feel heard, when you feel refuted when you share. Know you cannot be refuted and that you're responsible for hearing yourself, too. Just as much.

You have been a hero in your marriage...and it may be time for your wife to become the hero for awhile. Ask her for it. Tell her that you know you are strong and that you feel very weak and torn down right now. Reiterate what you said before about the affair and how you feel right now. Ask her plainly for her help in saving your marriage today.

Do not do so if you are foreseeing an outcome (which is a lie we tell ourselves). Do not do so if your intent is to get her to hurt enough to stop hurting you. Do not do so if you really don't want this marriage anymore, if you had a hidden expiration date on really recovering from her A and you're past it.

But please do so if you want to live to your code, experience freedom and understanding and to finally stop this cycle so you can meet her ENs from love, and eliminate your own LBs because that's now who you really are, anyway...

Then you can act from love, respect and intimacy, and experience that for yourself.

I bet a lot of what I'm saying now I said to you before...and I believe that in the last three years, there have been periods when you didn't feel controlled by her, continuously shot down and rejected by her...and during those times, you were not choosing your actions based on her at all.

Old habits are really difficult to break. You've just hit a new level, BP. Take the challenge. You're up to it, I promise.

LA