Will do, ma'am.

(is thinking if you sprayed me with blue dye, and I blushed, I would be halfway to that purple giraffe thing)

CWMI,

Test test test test test. That's all you do.

I will tell you what I want, so if you don't do it, I know it's intentional.

What if your husband WISHES he could love you the way that you need, but he's having a hard time? WHy does it have to be that he is intentionally hurting you?

Yikes.

Does Dr. Harley know you send these e-mails? Does he know about this dynamic? Because I can't see your husband telling him, and I think these sorts of interactions are what make it hard for your husband to be as emotionally present to you as you want.

You should forward teh e-mail to Dr. Harley, I think.

He was on the phone for the initial conversation, Telly. Did you miss that part? It was sparked by a QUESTION FROM SH HIMSELF.

Ya know what, Telly? I'm not in plan A here. My H and I have been consulting with SH for three months now. If I can't tell him honestly and openly when he lovebusts me, and ask for what I want, then what the heck am I doing? Why bother doing anything if I can't be open with my spouse? If his poor little ego can't take the bruise of his wife being fearful--because of his past actions--that she can't rely on him in tough times, then he needs to change that. I can't change that for him. And absolutely nothing will be accomplished by everyone being hush-hush and all nicey-nicey. I wasn't rude, I wasn't yelly, as far as I can tell, there were no DJs in my email. There was: asking for clarification and an expression of my fears.

Chris: he's going to write me a list of things he's going to do to show me that he will care for me when I'm ill. He wasn't sure what I was wanting there, so I gave him a suggestion to get him started ("I won't go into work early if my wife is sick in bed") and he was like, Oooh, I see what you mean, okay!

FYI...I wouldn't likely respond in writing to this email either. It's laden with OBVIOUS landmines that I'd simply avoid. I wouldn't have a clue how to respond. I'd roll my eyes and just be like "WHY does life have to be this hard". Discussing this with you would be much safer as I'd FEAR escalating the situation with a written response (and/or having my words used against me for years since you apparently save all emails and notes and use them to score argument points thereafter)

For gosh sakes...he's in counseling with you and TOGETHER you are discussing marriage and marriage builders and you are taking the stuff he says, GUESSING at his meaning and thoughts and then sending him emails quoting him and speaking in a language he doesn't understand. He's gonna think..."why bother counselling as it's just sinking me further in the hole". Is that what you want...him to quit so it's his fault? Why is your husband your adversary?

Men and women are different. He doesn't know what you want and how you want it. Things are NOT obvious to him. Like me...when he's sick...he likely wants to be left alone. You, like my wife, want to be taken care of or at least have concern expressed. You think showing "concern" and "care" are obvious. It's not. For years, I thought "picking up the slack" was the correct way of showing care. I'd say "OK...you are sick...drive yourself to the Doctor and I'll pick up our young daughter, tend to her, get dinner, get her bathed and in bed and if you have to go to the hospital, I'll take care of her in the morning too. Take care of yourself and I'll take care of things here". WRONGO....which is OBVIOUS to you, but it wasn't to me FOR YEARS.

The differences btwn men and women aren't bad. They are to be understood and celebrated. We (men and women) are wired differently. He'll never be capable of participating with you at this level of emotional vocabulary or connectivity. He'll never be able to think like a woman (whereas women ARE capable of thinking like a man). That is why God calls upon men to love their wives (because this is the biggest challenge for men) and for women to respect their husbands (because this is the bigger challenge for women).

IMO, you seem a bit heavy on the dj's today and a little light on the respect.

For example...his email response says "he'll take care of you". In man code...that means he will. Full stop. End of story. Do you seriously expect him to give you ACTIONS today to demonstrate that he means what he says? I have no idea what those "actions" would look like. I can guess you may mean...MORE CONVERSATION with a lot more assurances but that's not what men do...we are OK with actions (when you tell us what you want) but not words and multiple hour conversations about what exactly he meant and felt about saying "it's harder if she is sick than me". Men want EASY and your husband is in counseling with you because he wants a HAPPY LOVING WIFE so his life will be easier...NOT more difficult, more drama and more emotionally taxing.

NOW...when you both get on the same page and have implemented MB and really get a marriage of extra-ordinary care...(which is an ON-GOING PROCESS not an event) you have to develope PLANS for things such as sickness so you get what you want and need in the relationship. Men do OK with PLANS of ACTION, which are thought out aforefront. "Obvious" isn't. So long before you get the flu next you should discuss what "care" looks like to you and go over some scenarios of things he can DO. Then...when you are sick...REMIND HIM of the prior discussion and PLANS (this is KEY as you aren't really telling him specifically what to do but hinting nonetheless which will hopefully TRIGGER the previously discussed plans). What will be shocking to your husband is you REALLY don't want/need that much "care" because when you see him actually "do" something you know is outside his nature the mere fact he did such seemingly little things for you will make HUGE love deposits. He'll likely be able to keep the same work hours, for the most part, as it's only a couple of extra little things he'll undertake to do along with a slightly different attitude (focused on YOU a bit more) which will be enough.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. Wondering, I have asked for actions in the past and was turned down. I have asked him for his plan moving forward to accomplish the things he said in his email, and he has said he will provide a plan in list form.

I would have felt cared for if he had just taken care of the kids, lol. If he'd said/done this: I'd've fallen all over myself with gratitude.

Well...until you two (re)build a marriage of extra-ordinary care I doubt he's gonna be jumping up and down to make a list. Plus...a "writing out a list task" seems so parental. Can't it just be discussed and then remind him when the time comes (because men are airheads). For example, scenarios of things he can do to meet your needs can be discussed as you fill out and/or review the items in YOUR emotional needs questionaire. Hopefully he'll discover or glean some things in YOUR LIST he CAN do and will endeavor to do NEXT TIME. He'll mess up for sure but instead of DJ'ing him...you'll hopefully encourage him to LEARN and do better NEXT TIME as you grow in your relationship. This is a TEAM event where you learn TOGETHER, encourgage each other and BUILD a marriage of extra-ordinary care.

Thing is after reading your posts for quite some time, I very much think your relationship problems are a two-way street. You really make your husband sound like a uncaring dolt herein. However, I must say, I was SHOCKED when you got upset at your husband for suggesting getting pedicures TOGETHER as something to do as recreational companionship or in the 15 hours of time together. First off...you made me appreciate my wife who "allows" me to get professional massages ALONE from time to time because I like them and as preventative maintenance for my misaligned back (not that you have to be OK with that or pedicures). But to scold him (and/or berate him on this board) for simply putting forth the idea was shocking to me and made you APPEAR quit the controlling ball buster. You may or may not be...I'm just telling you how it was perceived by me.


Another COMPLETELY SEPERATE thing...some of you guys have spoke a lot lately of having your "feelings" denied by your husband. I was busy and didn't get a chance to respond (and haven't fully thought this response out though I tried to). I wonder at what point being MB "open and honest" means sharing EVERY feeling versus the point where sharing EVERY feeling when it's "felt" becomes an annoying habit. There's just so much that goes on in women's minds that men don't and can't understand. No matter how in love with you your husband becomes he'll never become your girlfriend, mother or sister. IMO, MB can't make him that and it's not the point of MB. The drama, the pressure, the fights over "feelings" CAN be annoying to men...in general. Just perhaps...sometimes, you'll figure out what "feelings" to share with him and which you shouldn't bother or burden him with (if only to wait until you've thought them out a bit more). Men want things easy and if and when YOU fall in love with him...you'll seek to make his life simplier and easier which MAY involve keeping some "feelings" to yourself. Conversely...as he, in return falls more passionately in love with you again and trusts you are truly partnering with him...he'll be more receptive/open to more "feelings" being shared and expressed. For example...did you really have to send him that email today at work? Couldn't it have waited untl you'd hashed it out here a bit more? What if you posted the email BEFORE you sent it? I mean...What if some night he came home and demanded sex right then and there while you smack dab in the middle of your job as a stay at home mother and then he went and complained (aloud to strangers on the internet) about your failure to meet his needs precisely when and the way he liked?

Anyway....something to discuss or ask Steve...the real expert.

Mr. Wondering <---please don't shoot me...I'm trying to be helpful

Just beat him a little bit.

1. It was he who got upset with me when I said I wasn't too keen on the idea of pedicures together. He suggested it, I said I wouldn't enjoy that, then I was called names and had my mental health questioned. Um...if you were shocked, imagine how I felt.

2. On the feelings thing...ime, it's usually in response to a request for something to happen, or something not to happen. Like with the pedicures--I said I wouldn't enjoy that, and he said I shouldn't feel that way about it. It's not some deal where I want to explore my every thought and feeling and get frustrated when he won't play the navel-gazing game. It's more like this:

H: Hey, I was thinking about taking off for the weekend with the guys.

Me: I'm not real crazy about that idea.

H: Well, get over it. You shouldn't feel that way. You're a controlling B and I'll do what I want.

This morning SH brought up the sickness thing, and I would not have said anything about it until the next time I got sick (and abandoned, as usual), but the conversation triggered the feelings I had over Christmas (which is all chronicled on this board as well), and I figured striking the iron while it was hot would be a good move. H is usually really tending and caring for several days after a convo with Steve, he really makes H think about his actions.

3. If he came home and demanded sex right then, I'd be all over it. In fact, I obliged his demand for sex just this morning. mmm...

4. I don't shoot people. I appreciate your time, don't let my stubborn hard-headedness run ya off!

What if your husband WISHES he could love you the way that you need, but he's having a hard time? WHy does it have to be that he is intentionally hurting you?

(I am repeating the important parts).

You should forward the e-mail to Dr. Harley, I think.

He and I discussed The List. It is a 'next time' plan, not stuff he's going to do now, but on the specific situation of me being ill and needing care. 'Being ill' being pretty narrowly defined--sniffles or general malaise don't count, but stuff with fevers, vomiting, or otherwise being under Dr care does. I'm not making the list. He is. He knows he's not shown care in the past, and said he wants to change that. So I want him to fill me in on his plan to do that. He's agreed to do it. I didn't demand it. It's going to contain the things he is willing to do--not the things I've 'demanded'. Shoot, if it contains only the one item I tossed out as a starter, that would be a big improvement on the past and I'm all about progress! lol.

You hit the nail on the head, Mr. Wondering. My husband would agree with all of this, and just about everything else you posted.

Thank you so much for posting!!!!

You tell me, Telly. If I tell my H that something he does hurts me, and he keeps doing it, it's UNintentional?

When he's having a hard time, he's able to speak, to reach for help. Whether he chooses to or not is up to him.

The email is right here. You got a problem with it, you forward it to whomever you like.

OH MY GOSH. Are you serious?

Wow.

Good bye!

Edited to add: I knew there was a reason I had quit posting to you. I just forgot for a while. But now I remember.

*edit*

Wow cwmi. Does Steve know he curses at you? Do y'all have a plan for AOs?

Steve knows, and now the people at our church know, too. I tell him I won't be sticking around to be spoken to like that and walk away. H knows it's a problem, and he's finally taking the first steps to address it. Yeah!

I just skimmed through all these posts today, and I have to say that my impressions are:

No, Radical Honesty does not mean opening your skull and telling each other every feeling you have right then. You probably won't have the same feeling an hour later, a day later, and 10 years later.

Secondly, MB thinking tends to make you want to tell your spouse, "This is how you make me feel when you _____."
That isn't right. That is blaming. That is assigning responsibility for your feelings to someone else, which is not the same as them taking responsibility for what they do. Your feelings are not purely emotional; they are the result of your processing the actions of others, based on your experiences and your thinking. Too much of these extra ingredients overpower the actual words and acts, skewing your reaction.

Wow, cwmi, that's the first time you've said that, that you have a plan for AOs! Way to go!

Would you agree that RH means that if you have the same feeling over and over for years, it's beneficial to get it out there, particularly at a time when the trigger for the feeling is not present in a do-something-now sense?

I think it's hugely beneficial to get it out there, in a way that makes LB$ deposits. You can do this!