Just to be clear I don't think her F?WH was checking out OW on Facebook - I think Phoenix did it and triggered herself. Sounds like NC is intact.

Yes - was me that triggered myself - NC seems intact.

The cell phone bill arrives any day which will be further proof of NC as they do not seem to have communicated by facebook or email - would bump into each other at kids sport practice (he was coach) or use cell phones (can now see loads of their calls on our bills that I paid each month but never noticed due to the high volume of calls he does for work).

F?WH has no idea I have her cell phone number (which I deduced with almost 100% certainty from phone records and young female answered when I called and hung up from blocked number so she wouldn't know it was me).

I asked F?WH for her cell number (to protect myself so I can tell from caller ID if she calls our home which she has never done but needed a cover rationale to get actual number). He said needs to think about this as I have history of being really impulsive and worried I might do something I would regret.

I am sure many members will think he has something to hide by not giving me her number which I am sure he eventually will. I gently pointed out to him that if I have to trust he has NC with OW then surely he can trust me not to call her.

Haven't pushed it yet as want to see what the cell phone bill shows without me risking pushing them further underground if the NC has actually been broken.

We have spoken about him changing his cell phone number and he has started new job so will no longer have any chance of bumping into OW. I am considering doing GPS snitch on vehicle but not available in our country until mid april and right now all his time is accounted for so feeling ok - especially if phone records prove no cell phone contact initiated by him.

I have searched all his email accounts - he doesn't realize I have access because he set passwords to remember I was able to get on no problem. His cell phone shows no outgoing calls but in our country we can't get any info on incoming calls due to privacy laws.

Still undecided whether to contact OWH via text and tell him I am saving marriage but need to be contacted if he has any hard proof that OW has had any kind of contact with my F?WH (regardless of who, when, what type, etc). I know the OWH is nutty and so have to proceed really carefully on this one.

Phoenix, this is incredibly disrespectful. The notion that you cannot be trusted after he has had an affair is very galling. This will not work. He cannot expect to regain your trust if he has secrets with the OW to which you are not privy.

If the OW is a bunny boiler, you might skip calling OWH and focus instead on recovery. It sounds like your H is on board, but you really need to have a solid plan in place, Phoenix. Can you counsel with the Harleys? They are expensive, but they are worth every penny. They will assess your situation and give you a PLAN. You don't have endless, fruitless sessions talking about feelings, they get right down to action.

Remind him that you are a big girl who can handle herself just fine. He is the one who has done something worthy of regret after all.

thanks Melody - I told him exactly this at the time.

I find that he doesn't follow through when it comes to having to approach the few things to do with OW - he changed job but hasn't yet changed cell number or told me hers even though doesn't seem to be any break in NC.

I had initially wanted a photo but he didn't have one - had to push him to look at her facebook page to confirm for me that is who she is (after already knew her name and identify). He claims he never saw her facebook before and they didn't ever communicate this way - no evidence on his computer so don't think he is lying - I have never seen him on facebook which neither of us use.

He will most likely wait for me to push him again for her number which I am willing to do once the phone bill arrives.

Definitely plan to do some sessions with the Harleys in weeks to come.
F?WH has asked to do some IC as well and so will I for my own stuff but we will find folks who are compatible with MB approach.

PS: what is a bunny boiler?

A totally crazy OW, like the one from 'Fatal Attraction', who set the kids' pet rabbit to boil on the stove in an effort to get back at the WH. She ultimately tried to kill both the BW and the WH as I recall.

thankfully no evidence she is bunny boiler.

I do feel she is a major threat to me though as according to OWH she claims to be in love with my F?WH and when my F?WH met her to end it and set in place NC she told my F?WH she has now decided to get a divorce.

I am terrified she will make a play for her and my F?WH to be together if she gets her own apartment - apparently OWH has said she can have her own apartment as long as she turns up at house each day to care for their 5 kids (ages 3 -14).

the OW parents have known about A since the OWH caught my F?WH and OW in the act last April. Apparently they are there every few days trying to talk her out of the A but she defends my F?WH to the death. The OWH had the nerve to ask me to come around and meet with her and her parents to convince the OW that my F?WH is a total jerk! Their pastor doesn't know about the A even though they are in counselling with him - wish I had info as I would do the exposure myself.

Not yet back in contact with OWH and undecided if I will unless I need more info to prove if NC broken.

In the mean time tonight will make dinner, hang out, go to gym and all with my F?WH as part of showing him I can be amazing spouse.

False recovery?

Me - doing plan A while staying alone in marital bed with terror, sadness and hope.

WH - participating in plan A while staying in basement.
Committed to being here to see if we can save our marriage yet can't say is sure about a reconciliation.

Feels more like he is dating me (renting me?) yet I have been really enjoying our time together and it felt like we were slowly building our relationship back with SF, RC and more.

Problems - blow out on saturday as I was still pissed that his final contact with OW weeks ago was in person and the NC policy didn't explicitly say "never ever for life" and he didn't express that what they did was wrong in strong enough terms. I ended up doing loads of LB and tried to kick him out (I screwed it up after getting all emotional by looking at a picture of OW before having discussion).

We have both been depressed since then and feels like withdrew most of the love units we had tentatively accumulated which were leading us both to feel very hopeful.

Second bomb hits yesterday. WH had firmly confirmed to me several times this month that Feb 19 in person meeting with OW to end the A was final contact. Found out when he gave me cell phone bill that he had been feeling guilty about not doing NC properly and had done follow up Feb 21 phone call to her to express these critical pieces (if we had known about MB would have done letter)

Problem - he didn't tell me until phone bill arrived yesterday and I found out myself (he lied to me earlier during month when asked to confirm no contact since Feb 19 in person meeting).

Could have so easily come clean and didn't. Now he is drowning in more depression, guilt and self-berating as can't seem to understand himself why he did this other than to avoid further conflict or "rubbing my face in it". He comes from a family and past that involves coping by keeping secrets.

Now I feel totally deflated and hopeless. It looks like there has been NC since Feb 21 but he still lied to me.


I will try to get in with the Harleys next month but until then on my own with the books and this forum.

What do I do now? Carry on with his commitment to NC (which seems to be holding for last 4 weeks) and keep doing Plan A hoping he will fall back in love with me and want a full R? Do I give him a time limit to make up his mind and if he is still confused go to Plan B? I don't think we will make it through Plan B as my own hurt will probably close me down to him coming back if he wanted to.

If he won't commit to the marriage, then what is he doing there? Tormenting you? I would stay in the game if there is a committment to a recovery program to save your marriage, but if there is no such committment, he will just wear you down until you have psychological and physical symptoms. You should go to Plan B sooner rather than later if he doesn't commit.

Plan A is only supposed when the affair is ongoing for 3-4 weeks. The time for unreciprocated giving is over. I would ask for that committment, phoenix, and if you don't get it, then start making plans for Plan B.

I have a suspicion he is waiting for the OW to leave her H so they can get together. If that is the case, he needs to move out - although I don't think he will admit that because his goal is to keep all his options open.


"Closure" meetings is really "closure" sex. That is what always happens. When someone is CLOSING something, they close, but that is not what "closure meetings" are about. It is another waynerd manipulation tactic to have sex with their OP.

Phoenix, i don't really believe contact has ended. He acts just like a wayward who has just gone deeper. Is there a secret cell phone somewhere?

Melody

I don't believe he is a wayward that has gone deeper or I would have asked him to leave last night. I believe my WH is still deeply in the fog but slowly coming out as he has been very very depressed and much more guilty and approaching me with apologies and hugs as we have gotten closer by using MB principle in past few weeks.

He has always been an all or none kind of man and won't commit to things unless he is 100% certain - I think this could prevent him from moving ahead with MB principles so trying to get him to read SAA (he has read the web articles). We have also talked calmly and openly about this tendency and how it could prevent our R.

I tend to rush in and want to have an immediate plan which also makes him pull back a bit and feel intimidated - past LB has been me always insisting on doing things my way so have to proceed with suggesting MB stuff very gently and respectfully - he has read everything I have asked and uses the concepts as we make our plans and try to navigate triggers and discussions.

I believe there has been total NC since Feb 21 as can't find any evidence on email, cells, web, etc. I am well aware that I could be totally wrong given the stats on WHs.

Also, OWH has not contacted me with any evidence of contact between our cheating spouses and OWH had lots of it until A ended Feb 19th.

If my WH had sex with her on Feb 19th this may have been why he did NC call on Feb 21 but they met in public parking lot with lots of people around rather than their usual hook up spot (he denies sex with her this day but admits to sex with her on Feb 14th one day before DDay).

He is reciprocating lots and I am confused because I feel like he is committed to saving the marriage with most of his actions yet is holding back moving into our bed (believes that should be symbol that he is sure we are going to make it).

He also keeps breaking down into tears when he sees me in pain and seems to be having trouble coping with the pain he feels now that he fully gets my pain.

He can't seem to wrap his head around how he will ever be able to make me happy given what he is done.

He can't seem to in-vision how happy we could be with some time and healing while meeting each other's needs.

I don't believe he is planning to be with her - she has five children, no money, and her entire family confronting her daily about this (including her parents). He seems to have much more disdain for what they did over the past week - can see disgust and guilt coming out now.


I know you are trying to prevent me from being a naive fool but I also don't want to rush in and assume the worst as I still believe my husband is a good man who did a very very bad evil thing under conditions of chronic emotional pain (in which I played a very significant role even though I am not at all to blame for the A). I think his reluctance is from being once bit (actually million times bit) and twice shy.

I am sure I will get nailed for trying to rationalize my husbands ambivalance but I really believe he still loves me but can't see yet the path to recovery - will try to read a chapter of SAA with him tonight so he can see his feelings are expected and there is a way through.

What if my husband truly didn't have sex with her on Feb 19th after the Feb 15th Dday and did the full NC speech appropriately on Feb 21. Then all his efforts during the past month to move towards reconciling still count right?


He has accounted for his entire daily schedule, left his old job in the city that OW resides at great financial loss to our family, offered to call in every hour, have me read his emails, leaves his computer with passwords open, etc for the past 4 weeks.

This lie that bugs me occurred within the first week of DDay before I was doing MB and we were a total mess with all kinds of fights, screaming matches and LBs on both sides. I am willing to forgive and proceed for now in Plan A for now.

He is worth the risk as for now my health is fragile but holding.
I could never forgive myself if I assume he is going deeper when he is not and then boot him out and we never make it.

Waiting for my soulmate to fully return to me......

ok, phoenix, where did I tell you to boot him? That never crossed my mind. My suggestion would be to do more snooping and make SURE it has not gone further underground. That is usually the case with wayward who is "still thinking about it." It either has gone further underground or he/she is waiting for the OP to leave the spouse.

The problem with maintaining the status quo with a wayward who will not commit to recovering your marriage is that a) it will wear you down very quickly and b) there is no reason to be together if he won't commit to recovery. What does he want, phoenix? Why is he there?

Please note that Dr Harley DOES NOT advocate staying in a state of LIMBO after an affair, so if you think he does, you are misreading him. He is VERY SPECIFIC about what must happen after an affair:

Requirements for Recovery

p.s. I want to add that if you lower the bar for a wayward they will ALWAYS live down to your expectations. Setting the bar HIGH for re-admission to your marriage helps you, him and especially your marriage. A common mistake made by some BS's is to be so relieved to have the WS in the home that they neglect their marriage and their own mental health. That is a huge mistake.

Hi Melody.

I will reread the Plan A vs. Plan B stuff as I think I have misunderstood the whole when do you ask someone to move out stuff.

I really appreciate you helping me gate keep my vulnerability to being willing to have him back on whatever terms as can see this is a huge pull.

We are following the principles and re-setting our course as soon as we realize we have made an error. WH has been very attentive today - just texted me to apologize again for not protecting me by warning me there had been one follow up call he didn't tell me about in the chaos of the first week post Dday.

After reading all your advice I have just had the courage to text the OWH to reinitiate contact and asked him to contact me if he has any hard proof on his end that NC has been broken in any way (can't seem to find any evidence on my end in cars, computer, phones, personal belongings, his briefcase, etc).

Will most likely do GPS snitch on his vehicle when product comes out in April here in my country and may do voice activated recorder in car in case he does have second secret cell phone. Snooping sucks but will need this even if he fully commits to R.

Thanks for all the time you are taking to coach me as I know us newbies can be super frustrating as we blunder around the place ignoring advice and misinterpreting others!

thanks again Melody for your support - the last few days have been especially rough so nice to be connected to someone who has survived this and made it.

Apologizing for not warning you about his contact in feb? I hope you didn't buy that? He didn't apologize for CALLING her but not "warning" you that you would find out. HUGE RED FLAG. The VAR sounds like the right way to go. I would be worried that he "forgot" about that phone call because he was juggling other ways to contact her. It may turn out to be that he contacts her using an affair phone. Waywards go UNDERGROUND.

Where is your WH on writing that NC letter and having YOU okay and send it?

Whoops -I have to be very careful with my language so I don't waste members valuable time in giving me advice based on inaccurate descriptions ("not warning me" was not the exact language he used).

He apologized for making the call and for not telling me about it.

That said little or big lies are still MAJOR problem if we are to have a true R and he knows that. Have started to set up IC today for him to better understand his problems with becoming a liar in last year or so.

So sad as for past 23 years has been known by all to be very truthful, open person who was not afraid to speak the truth even if uncomfortable. I have even seen him end a friendship years ago with a man who was cheating on his wife as it made my husband sick. My real man is buried somewhere under all this wayward spouse craziness.

We are both confused about whether we should still do the NC letter now that he claims to have done the exact thing in the non-reported phone call several weeks ago that led to this current crisis .

I think we should still do it as no way for me to ever know exactly what was said in final phone call and I deserve this gesture and the tiny bit of peace of mind. He agrees.

He is on his way home for us to talk again tonight to get our plan in better shape.

I still don't think he is still cheating but is in the process of coming out of the fog. His depression seems really bad and worsening this past week whereas the first few weeks he seemed just spaced out, aloof and numb.

He seems way more empathic towards me and way more gracious about my rights to be sad, vent, etc and keeps saying he can't believe how amazing and gracious I am being, don't deserve you being so loving and giving me second chance, etc. Also reaching out for lots of comfort hugs which had been almost fully absent for months.

I am still hoping for the best, doing everything I can to build this back up but preparing for the worst and protecting myself whatever way I can.

Thanks again Scotland for keeping an eye out for me with your advice and support.

You are already getting great advice...I just wanted to add that some of your statements signal to me that you are still looking at WH like he is your husband and not a foggy alien (eg, I don't believe WH would have gone deeper...)

You need to have the mindset that there IS continuing contact unless you can prove otherwise (not the other way around). I would slap a VAR in his car ASAP, tomorrow in fact. Can you follow him or have someone follow him?

It also bothers me that he refuses to come to the marital bed ~ the only thing that makes sense to me with that is there is contact or a plan to move in with OW. I am not trying to scare you, I just want you to have your eyes wide open...

ok, phoenix, your H is not participating in anything. He is not in Plan A. He is in plan CAKEEATING. He is not sleeeping with you and as you said, is "not even sure about reconciliation. That might be a "plan" but it is SURE NOT a marital recovery plan. It is a "plan" to use your basement as a flop house while he keeps his options open.


Again, this is not a plan for marital recovery if he hasn't even decided he wants to be married.


This matters little if he is not even "sure" about reconciliation. What would be the point?


I can tell you why for free. Waywards lie to cover up their bad behavior. Its like the bank robber; he has to lie to cover his crimes. It becomes a habit.

Phonix, i am not trying to give you a hard time, but I get the sense that you believe that recovery is going to just magically happen to you and hubby through some fairy. Your only plan here is HOPE and hope is not a plan.

I could be wrong, and I will be the first to say that I can only refer to my situation with 100% accuracy, but a couple of things struck me from your posts.

1. I see your DH as doing alot of things right and we need to acknowledge that. BS's seem to have VERY sensitive radar when it comes to waywards being secretive or sneaky, but I don't believe we interpret it right all the time. If he is reading everything you give him and trying to incorporate the MB principles in how you two react as a couple to various situations, if you have no proof of ongoing contact from the OWH or on your own, if he is offering transparency without resistance, I don't think you need to assume that he is still having an A. He may be foggy, but active? I don't see it.

2. You need to get a firm statement of commitment to the marriage and invite him back to your bed. When my DH confessed to me, he asked me if I wanted him to leave. I said no. He asked me where he should sleep. I said my husband should sleep in my bed. My DH struggled for a long time with depression and worthlessness. I just kept telling him I loved him and wanted him and eventually he accepted it..

3. I see your husband not telling you of the phone call on the 21st as trickle truth. I got some of that for weeks after the D day. We'd be cruising along and then he would tell me something that just rocked my world again. We did eventually get to the point that all the facts he told me jived and nothing contradicted anything else and I could be satisfied that I knew everything I needed to to recover.

If I were in your situation and NC was handled in this piecemeal way, I would still want the formal NC letter to be written and sent. Just for my piece of mind. And keep snooping. Especially early on, it is really important to feel secure and the only way you can do that is by having proof of no contact.

I have had my reality check and everything you all said is true - I was running on false hope and in false recovery.

Yesterday I called OWH and he checked OW cell phone (she got physically violent) and he was able to get a quick glance and noticed my WH had texted her to warn her that I now had her cell phone number (WH had found out less than 24 hours earlier I figured it out from our phone bill and if he had been successful with NC until then this triggered him to break the NC).

Within minutes the OWH texted me to let me know and I let WH know that I knew by calling him on his cell. I also exposed to his new boss as the text was done on work time on his work cell. Boss was pissed and hung up on me. In the mean time my WH mistakenly thought the OW had called me so left her a hostile voicemail - hopefully that will do some damage to their connection.

I really screwed up because instead of asking him to come home and talk about it I told him his belongings would be on front lawn in garbage bags and he could come get them if he wasn't interested in committed to a full R with me. neighbours heard me scream at him that he was a cheating scumbag while he loaded his vehicle looking absolutely devastated.

he came inside to talk as i was clearly having a mental breakdown and doing all kinds of bad LB stuff (I snapped and lost control because felt like Dday all over again but even worse). I told him I have to go to Plan B because he isn't committed to R, broke NC and didn't believe his lie that "I was going to tell you when I got home".

I also expressed my hurt that he decided to "protect her" when he called her (even though I have had her number for months and do not plan to create any drama by calling her). I was hysterical in tears explaining how badly it hurt that he isn't protecting me or himself.

I tried to calm down and explained that until he is able to fully commit to me, our marriage, the complete MB program and a NC letter that he follow through on then he needs to leave. I invited him to stay and do this - told him I believe he can be an amazing husband to me and I can be the kind of wife he deserves.

He was crying that he wishes so badly he felt sure about wanting to save our marriage, feels so guilty that I am being so noble and gracious, can't bear to see my pain, blah blah blah. He said he wonders if like some of the examples in MB that he needs a gun to his head to see the reality of life without me to lift his numbness. He said he wants to feel the urge to fight for me back and I deserve this - he said every day that he can't commit is making his own guilt and pain worse - very very depressed.

He said he thinks he needs the separation as a reality check because he is aware that him living in the basement with me meeting all his needs without full R isn't fair to me and he doesn't feel any differently (still numb, resentful, all the stuff that led him to seek out affair to meet his needs).

He still claims that other than yesterday there has been no contact with OW but understands that this sets back his withdrawal and that I can't believe a word he says. We read the pages on withdrawal from SAA and he acknowledged that is how he feels -looked a bit surprised that his reaction is typical and expected.

I am SO SCARED. He left last night to sleep in our van and came home for one last shower as I was leaving this morning (I said hi and then left through the front door).

I sent him a text later this morning explaining that I will basically be in Plan B other than assigning someone we will communicate through- we have had a few brief texts back and forth to make arrangements about him coming to the house when I am not here to help walk the dog and I have agreed he can leave some of his stuff in the basement until he figures out where he is going to live.

For now he is sleeping alone in our camper van and he has no support from friends or family because of his behaviours and choices. I have loads of support.

The paranoia has picked up - can't help but imagine he will reinitiate the A and I feel sick inside. Feel so alone and worthless. Lost 30 pounds and I look a mess.
Trying to keep busy and focus on myself. Physician said i am coping very well considerably but it is day by day.

I am going for a walk with my best friend in an hour but feel so shattered and beaten down. My hope is almost gone and I told him that I can't promise I will still want him back but for now the door is still open and I still love him and want him despite everything (as long as conditions met which are now set where they should have been before).

For any other newbies - don't fall into my trap and take back WH on any terms because of the desperate need to get them back under any terms.

I will cling to any words of support or wisdom members can give me to make it through these dark times.

Phoenix feels buried in the ashes today....