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I'll tell you why I think Harley's material is so much way more accessible to me. It's the positive-negative-positive pattern

Positive - this is why many folks choose these patterns - the goal they want. We are validated for wanting this goal

Negative - this LB behavior is not the way to get there. Shows the actual consequences of the behavior

Positive - here he lays out the LB$-depositing way to get where you wanted in the beginning. It's okay to replace the behavior in the second part, because this new behavior is the one that gets you where you want to go in a way that makes your marriage more fitting to you, and more fun, than what you were doing.

In contrast, how I heard the video 1 for example was - Don't DJ. It's irrational, stupid, and useless. Why do you do this to yourself, are you nuts or what?! No validation about why someone would want to understand their partner better, or how to do that in a LB$ building way. But I do see the humor in it.



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I didn't even watch all the videos, so I really can't comment much on them. But to add to the 'point' that I glean was in them, I'm wondering what the motivation was to post them. On the whole irrationality of women, I'm quite sensitive there. A couple of weeks ago, my H accused me of being bipolar. He said I must be bipolar because one minute I can be happy as a lark, and the next I'm angry or sad. Of course, my change in emotions couldn't possibly have anything to do with what happened immediately before my mood change! That would be ludicrous! ANY change in emotions at any time must mean there's a mental disorder! lol. NOBODY but me reacts emotionally to any type of stimulus. The world is flat, I suppose. It was a tough conversation, but we got through it, he allowed me to 'learn' him on what bipolar really is, he relented that no, my behavior is not bipolar, and that yes, he could see how I could be happy right up until the point where an event happened that affected that. Like that day when we planned to go for a run in the park because I was getting home early. Yeah! I was so happy! Then I get home and discover that he's not there, he went into work! *CRASH* Normal response, not a mental disorder.

We played Scrabble last night, I beat the pants off him but he didn't pout, so it was good. We also sat down and made our schedule for UA for the upcoming week. He emailed me The List, I thanked him lots.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
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Since we're on labeling, I just want to make clear that I have not told my H that I think he's a narcissist. That's a huge DJ, eh? I'm not glossing over and keeping my feelings secret, I do tell him when I feel he's been thoughtless toward me and I do tell him that I think he cares way too much what other people think of him. What we're doing with our church helps with that last one, too, makes it less of a conversation where it's me vs him, and more of a conversation where we discuss the study we're working on.

I think it's prudent to keep our discussions (my complaints) focused on behaviors that can be changed by a mentally healthy individual, assuming for the meantime that I'm actually dealing with one, unless and until it comes to a point where it's obvious that I'm not. What do ya'll think?


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I try to assume I'm dealing with a mentally healthy individual until it's obvious that I am not.

Here's an article that might help, I dunno. I got it by googling "how to deal with narcissist" but it isn't necessarily a professional opinion. It's from eHow: "How to Deal With Narcissistic Personality Disorder"


When someone close to you has narcissistic personality disorder, you can feel like you're the one who's mentally ill. A narcissist manipulates you and everyone else around him to maintain his own sense of worth. Though people with narcissistic personality disorder are often highly intelligent and charming, they're much like toddlers in their emotional development, insisting that they are the center of the world.
Difficulty: Challenging
Instructions

1.
Step 1

Realize that narcissistic personality disorder is a real disorder that makes the one suffering from it behave in ways that aren't typical of an average person. At the same time, a narcissist attempts to make you feel like you're the one with a problem, if not a full-blown mental illness.

2.
Step 2

Understand that the nature of the disorder makes it nearly impossible for a person suffering from it to seek treatment. If she does seek treatment, it's highly unlikely that she'll change her ways. Instead, she'll often attempt to use what her therapist says to discredit and devalue other people in her life.

3.
Step 3

Decide to have no contact with the narcissist, if possible. Because you can't change the narcissist, you should stay away from him to keep your own mental health and stability. Ignore him in social settings, don't answer the door if he shows up at your house, don't answer the phone when he calls and don't return emails. If you live with him and it's possible, either move out or demand that he does.

4.
Step 4

Avoid discussions with the narcissist unless you have a witness and the discussion is absolutely required, such as for legal reasons. People with narcissistic personality disorder are masters of manipulation whether it's actively manipulating you or twisting your words so they mean something other than what you actually intend.

5.
Step 5

Join a support group to help you realize you're not alone. While those around you who know the person with narcissistic personality disorder may be taken in by his charm and think you're the one with a problem, other people who've had close relationships with narcissists share your experience and can help you feel stronger.

6.
Step 6

Attend therapy to heal from the abuse you suffered at the hands of the narcissist. Most narcissists are also abusers, generally abusing you emotionally until you feel like a deeply flawed person. They may also be physical abusers. A skilled therapist can help you recover from the abuse and return to feeling like yourself again.

7.
Step 7

Figure out why you were so drawn to the person with narcissistic personality disorder so you can avoid it in the future. Narcissists are generally charming people who seem to be larger-than-life, who exude excitement and who may offer excessive compliments. At the same time, though, you can often perceive that they lack genuine emotion and engagement even when you first meet them.



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I found this page a while ago: http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/howto.html

These things struck me:

Quote
The practical test, so far as I know, is that with normal people, no matter how difficult, you can get some improvements, at least temporarily, by saying, essentially, "Please have a heart." This doesn't work with narcissists; in fact, it usually makes things worse.

For instance, they always fill in their gaps (which make up just about the entirety of their visible life) with bits of behavior, ideas, tastes, opinions, etc., borrowed from someone else whom they regard as an authority. Their authoritative sources, as far as I know, are always people they've actually known, not something from a book, for instance, and narcissists' opinions may actually come from someone you know, too, but who is not to you obviously an authority on the matter at hand, so narcissists can seem totally arbitrary, virtually random in their motivations and reasoning.

From my personal experience, and from what I've seen in the clinical literature, narcissists don't talk about their inner life -- memories, dreams, reflections -- much at all. They rarely recount dreams. They seem not to make typical memory associations -- i.e., in the way one thing leads to another, "That reminds me of something that happened when I was...of something I read...of something somebody said...." They don't tell how they learned something about themselves or the world.

They often say that they don't remember things from the past, such as childhood events, their schooldays or old friends, and it seems to me that they really don't most of the time.

It is also essential that you keep emotional distance from narcissists. They're pretty good at maintaining a conventional persona in superficial associations with people who mean absolutely nothing to them, and they'll flatter the hell out of you if you have something they can use or if, for some reason, they perceive you as an authority figure. That is, as long as they think you don't count or they're afraid of you, they'll treat you well enough that you may mistake it for love. But, as soon as you try to get close to them, they'll say that you are too demanding -- and, if you ever say "I love you," they'll presume that you belong to them as a possession or an appendage, and treat you very very badly right away. The abrupt change from decent treatment to outright abuse is very shocking and bewildering, and it's so contrary to normal experience that I was plenty old before I realized that it was actually my expression of affection that triggered the narcissists' nasty reactions. Once they know you are emotionally attached to them, they expect to be able to use you like an appliance and shove you around like a piece of furniture. If you object, then they'll say that obviously you don't really love them or else you'd let them do whatever they want with you. If you should be so uppity as to express a mind and heart of your own, then they will cut you off -- just like that, sometimes trashing you and all your friends on the way out the door.

And this, from traits discussed on the same page:

Quote
The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves. They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without even stopping to take a breath. It can be trivial (e.g., about what they want for lunch) or it can be serious (e.g., about whether or not they love you). When you ask them which one they mean, they'll deny ever saying the first one, though it may literally have been only seconds since they said it -- really, how could you think they'd ever have said that? You need to have your head examined! They will contradict FACTS. They will lie to you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying, making stuff up, or are crazy.

Narcissists pay attention only to themselves and stuff that affects them personally. However, since they don't know what other people are doing, narcissists can't judge what will affect them personally and seem never to learn that when they cause trouble they will get trouble back. They won't take other people's feelings into consideration and so they overlook the fact that other people will react with feeling when abused or exploited and that most people get really pissed off by being lied to or lied about.

Narcissists are (a) extremely sensitive to personal criticism and (b) extremely critical of other people. They think that they must be seen as perfect or superior or infallible, next to god-like (if not actually divine, then sitting on the right hand of God) -- or else they are worthless. There's no middle ground of ordinary normal humanity for narcissists. They can't tolerate the least disagreement. In fact, if you say, "Please don't do that again -- it hurts," narcissists will turn around and do it again harder to prove that they were right the first time; their reasoning seems to be something like "I am a good person and can do no wrong; therefore, I didn't hurt you and you are lying about it now..." -- sorry, folks, I get lost after that.

There's lots more, but this one is so dead on, it's scary:

Quote
Narcissists are very disappointing as gift-givers. This is not a trivial consideration in personal relationships. I've seen narcissistic people sweetly solicit someone's preferences ("Go ahead -- tell me what you really want"), make a show of paying attention to the answer ("Don't you think I'm nice?"), and then deliver something other than what was asked for -- and feel abused and unappreciated when someone else gets gratitude for fulfilling the very request that the narcissist evoked in the first place. I've seen this happen often, where narcissists will go out of their way to stir up other people's expectations and then go out of their way to disappoint those expectations. It seems like a lot of pointless work to me.
First, narcissists lack empathy, so they don't know what you want or like and, evidently, they don't care either; second, they think their opinions are better and more important than anyone else's, so they'll give you what they think you ought to want, regardless of what you may have said when asked what you wanted for your birthday.



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Those were snippets from the page, that's why the stuff in the quote boxes seems disjointed. You can go to the page itself to read the full narrative, it's quite long so I didn't want to lift the whole thing here.


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A caveat about the site you quoted: It is written by a self-proclaimed narcissist and so should be filtered accordingly. As in, is what he writes true and accurate, or is it just feeding *his* narcissistic needs.

Not saying he's wrong, or doesn't provide useful insights into the workings of the narcissistic mind; just, be aware.


me - 47 tired
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This, too is oh so familiar:

Quote
Narcissists are not only selfish and ungiving -- they seem to have to make a point of not giving what they know someone else wants. Thus, for instance, in a "romantic" relationship, they will want you to do what they want because they want it and not because you want it -- and, in fact, if you actually want to do what they want, then that's too much like sharing and you wreck their fun and they don't want it anymore.


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Originally Posted by jayne241
A caveat about the site you quoted: It is written by a self-proclaimed narcissist and so should be filtered accordingly. As in, is what he writes true and accurate, or is it just feeding *his* narcissistic needs.

Not saying he's wrong, or doesn't provide useful insights into the workings of the narcissistic mind; just, be aware.

The author is a woman (Joanna Ashmun), and is from her experience WITH narcissists, not her experience as a narcissist.


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Jayne, I'm curious where you got your information from, can you show me where on that page you got that it was a male narcissistic author?


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I was thinking of a website written by a guy... I forget the name, but it seemed to have the same "look and feel". I guess I was mistaken.

If you are on the website I'm talking about, it's hard to miss, because he has his name plastered all over. lol And he is not shy about admitting he's a narcissist.


me - 47 tired
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DS 8a think
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Jayne, I'm curious where you got your information from, can you show me where on that page you got that it was a male narcissistic author?

Calm down, I wasn't attacking. smile I just explained, I guess I didn't get my answer typed before your second post.


me - 47 tired
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I'm on the website I linked to. Um...


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"they will want you to do what they want because they want it and not because you want it"

in direct opposition to POJA!


me - 47 tired
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You stated something matter-of-factly and obviously had no idea what you were talking about. You denigrated and dismissed the information I provided by talking outta the side of your neck. Calm down? I asked for clarity.


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Originally Posted by CWMI
You stated something matter-of-factly and obviously had no idea what you were talking about. You denigrated and dismissed the information I provided by talking outta the side of your neck. Calm down? I asked for clarity.

I sincerely apologize. I truly and honestly did not in any way intend to "denigrate". I could ask for proof that I denigrated and dismissed, but I will not. I very

(OUCH!!! Do NOT have a coughing fit with a cat laying on your chest!!!!!)

... clearly tried to say I wasn't saying his (the one that actually IS his, not yours) site isn't necessarily wrong, just trying to voice a helpful caution. I should have kept my thoughts to myself. I apologize.


me - 47 tired
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Thank you.


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You're welcome.

If it helps (AND IF IT DOESN'T PLEASE IGNORE) here is the site I was thinking of.

http://samvak.tripod.com/#Menu

Somewhere, at one time, I got from that site to the site you posted. Maybe through a direct link, or maybe from clicking one thing which led to another which led to another... who knows. I am NOT claiming to know.


me - 47 tired
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Just for proof/clarity/whatever word you want to use, here is one place/website where he refers to/admits to/whatever you want to call it, being a narcissist:

from Narcissism - The Mind of a Narcissist

Quote
Did you ever wonder how it feels to BE a Narcissist?

I intend to tell you.

In brutally honest and startling detail.

Don't miss them - it is the first time EVER that a Narcissist opens up his world to VISITORS.


me - 47 tired
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Proof and clarity of what? That you have the wrong person when referencing the site I linked to? What's your point?


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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