My "point" was to try to preemptively address any question of where on his site I based my "accusation" or "caveat" or "dismissal" or "denigration" that he was a narcissist, or whatever.

But you have the wrong person. I linked to one person's site, and you linked to someone else's to 'prove' that what you said was accurate.

Do you understand that?

If you want to pull something from his site for productive discussion, feel free! But that he has a website on which he proclaims that he is a narcissist has absolutely nothing to do with what you said about the site I linked to and pulled information from. Nothing.

Hey, that is VERY COOL! That gives me a glimpse into a man that is FUN, CWMI - and one that is WILLING to take STEPS to work the program with you! He WILL slip up though - as Mr. W told you - and ESPECIALLY this early in the learning process. POJA and all the rest is like a foreign language to him - I know it sure was for us!

And we STILL slip up - I think the key is to be forgiving and assume the BEST - that your spouse isn't your ADVERSARY, rather they are your TEAMMATE! I know I keep repeating that, but I believe it's a huge deal - that shift in perspective is critical...

I'll give you an example of a recent slip-up of Mr. W's, and the result - and he is surely welcome to tell you about any of mine - they are MANY I'm sure - but of course, as is human, his are the ones that stand out to me - lol...

It was a Friday - he forgot his cell phone at home - rare, but it happens...

He usually works late on Fridays - I was calling him to find out what time he thought he'd be home - First I called his cell phone - Um, DUH...ha! Then I called his office line - no answer - then I called our other business line - then all the other business lines - no answer at any of them - hmmmm, weird - I kept calling them alternately - hey, he could have been in the potty when I called before, right?

I was a bit worried - and suddenly he walks in the door - earlier than usual for a Friday too - cool...

BUT...

Naturally I asked, "Where were you? I called every single line we have."

He said, "Oh, Dave Nosepicker showed up at my office and we went for a beer at the restaurant/bar next door."

I said, "Why didn't you call me? That's a weird POJA technique."

He said, [and this is where he steps all in it - lol] "Well I thought about it, but he was standing right there - and I would have looked stupid calling to ask my wife if I could go. And if I wouldn't have forgotten my cell phone I would have called you ON THE WAY. Besides, if I would have called, would you have said yes?"



I said: "Ummmm, Dear? Enthusiastic agreement? You are worried about what an old high school/college, jobless, currently-living-separately-from-his-wife-and-children man thinks of you - but not what *I* think? For real? C'MON DUDE! You know, calling me while ON THE WAY wouldn't have been a great plan either - that also ignores the POJA - kinda flies in the face of whether or not I "enthusiastically agree" and all...That is the old pattern of "easier to get forgiveness than permission"...We have been working the same program, right? MB, yes?"

Mr. W is an awesome husband, but he does still make mistakes - and I expect that he will - just as I expect that I will - mistakes can be overcome - It's important that you don't do irreparable damage with your own love busters when this happens...

What we realized is that we didn't have a plan in place that would have allowed Mr. W to both follow the POJA and still get to be a MAN in the eyes of his buddy. We were ill prepared for a situation such as this.

So together we thought about what should have happened...Here's what we came up with...

Mr. W could have said to his friend, "Hey man, I'd love to go get a beer with you, but I'm not sure if Mrs. W has plans or not, let me give her a call and see what's going on."

If I didn't enthusiastically agree, Mr. W can still "save face" by saying something like:

"Looks like dinner will be on the table in 5 minutes. I'll have to take a raincheck, Dave Nosepicker. Good to see you buddy."

So simple - yet, it wasn't on the tip of Mr. W's tongue, and I could understand that. Extending empathy to your spouse is important - No matter what I think of Dave Nosepicker, I could see that this was an old buddy of Mr. W's, and I do understand that he didn't want to seem "henpecked" to him. Mr. W didn't do what he did because he wanted to hurt me [assume the best of your teammate] - he did it out of not having schema to handle the situation that was set before him.

Cutting him a break on this MB slip up was a benefit for both of us. The end result is that we felt like a team that had figured out a plan together - we both felt cared for and respected.

Years ago, something like that would have meant a huge blow-up on my part - unpleasant for both of us to say the least - both left with major withdrawals in our love banks...Needless to say, we like the new way much better...

Anyway, sorry that was so long, I just wanted you to see that allowing for slip-ups and practicing empathy when they happen can do a lot for your marriage...

Mrs. W

P.S. I think it's way cool that your husband goes to church and participates in Bible studies with you - Admire him for that CWMI - point out how much it means to you that he is a good spiritual leader for your family...Not all men do that - it's a blessing - don't forget to tell him...

P.P.S. You said he cares too much what people think - Could it be that Admiration is a top need of his? To those that have admiration as a top need, criticism is like kryptonite - positive reinforcement goes much farther...

Yep, glad that finally happened. It has been yet another point of contention in the past, so I'm glad he's finally on board with the whole family thing. This goes back to one of the things in the narcissist stuff I quoted--several years ago, H came home and announced that he was going to start going to church. With the family of a guy that he worked with. And me and the children were not invited to join him. When I insisted that he include us in this venture, he said forget it, he just wouldn't go if he HAD to share the experience with us. It took quite a bit of effort on my part to get him to start going as a family. I'm still a bit touchy that he wasn't a good spiritual leader for the family then, that he was willing to cast us aside and seek this with others. I need to remember that that was then, and things are different now. And be grateful.

Yes, admiration is a big need of his. Probably more than he's willing to admit. Do you remember that Senator who used to post here? It kind of reminds me of him, and people in general who need admiration but are not willing to do admirable things to get it. Like it's just a right. I struggle a lot with expressing myself in a non-critical way while still being honest. And when he does do something that I truly admire, I lay it on for him.

A New York Times article in 2002 cited a number of scientific studies of schadenfreude, which it defined as "delighting in others' misfortune." Many such studies are based on social comparison theory, the idea that when people around us have bad luck, we look better to ourselves. Other researchers have found that people with low self-esteem are more likely to feel schadenfreude than are people who have high self-esteem.[19]

A 2006 experiment suggests that men, but not women, enjoy seeing bad people suffer. The study was designed to measure empathy, by watching which brain centers are stimulated when subjects inside an fMRI observe someone having a painful experience. Researchers expected that the brain's empathy center would show more stimulation when those seen as good got an electric shock than they would if the shock was given to someone the subject had reason to consider bad. This was indeed the case, but for male subjects the brain's pleasure centers also lit up when someone else got a shock that the male thought was well-deserved.[20]

Brain-scanning studies show that schadenfreude is correlated with envy. Strong feelings of envy activated physical pain nodes in the brain's dorsal anterior cingulate cortex; the brain's reward centers , such as the ventral striatum, were activated by news that the people envied had suffered misfortune. The magnitude of the brain's schadenfreude response could even be predicted from the strength of the previous envy response.[21][22]

A 2009 study indicates that the hormone-like chemical called oxytocin may be involved in the feeling of schadenfreude.[23] In that study, it was reported that when participants in a game of chance were pitted against a player they considered arrogant, inhaling oxytocin through the nose enhanced their feelings of schadenfreude when their opponent lost as well as their feelings of envy when their opponent won.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude

LOL, CWMI - I hope you don't give him admiration for going to church with y'all now by saying anything remotely like:

"Phew, I'm glad you FINALLY are doing what you should have been doing all along."



To someone with a high need for admiration that would sound like a really backwards compliment - They would hear:

"Hey, you used to suck A LOT, now your suck factor has FINALLY gone down - Thank God!"



Admiration is a top need for me - criticism sends me to the very depths of despair - but brother, if you want me to jump through hoops for you, just sincerely compliment me - I will work like a dawg to get more of that beloved admiration...

Positive reinforcement...

We "Admiration HOs" are not all that complicated, but HOW you say something to us can change the whole ballgame...

Example:

1. "You don't need all that goop on your face to look beautiful."

Versus

2. "You are naturally beautiful. It's amazing how great you look without make-up!"

Both say essentially the same thing, but only #2 is music to the admiration lovers ears...#1 is heard as criticism...

Do your best to look for opportunities to admire Mr. CWMI - there are big payoffs for meeting that need...

Mrs. W

lol, no, as tempting as it is...

I thank him for driving, nearly every week. The campus is huge, there's about a dozen parking attendants on duty directing people, I would get all flustered, but he's amazing at navigating it smoothly and he's great at tight parking and getting us next to the sidewalk so I don't worry about the kids crossing traffic.

He reads Bible stories to the kids, and I give him praise for that. 'Spiritual leader of a family' praise.

When there's a sermon that really hits home and he says something later about how it affected him, I'm giddy with admiration.

Mrs. W

As you get further into learning the MB program, you'll want to make sure that you are meeting that need "in the way he likes it met"...Otherwise, you could find yourself believing that you are meeting his need for admiration in SPADES, but are sorely missing the payoff - and what is happening is that your arrows are landing just a bit left of the actual target...

Mrs. W

...and that's where I head back to the Senator reference, and not doing admirable things. My H has said that he does not need kudos for jobs well done or pats on the back, what he needs is for me to be supportive of him in his job.

The job he accepted after I told him that I didn't support that decision. The job that we argue over a lot, because there are things about it that I told him--before he ever went on an interview--would bring about the demise of our marriage.

The job that our MARRIAGE COACH is recommending he quit.

That's what he wants to be admired for.

Hard to muster up that admiration.

And when we know better, we do better, CWMI...

It's VERY common for men to desire admiration for their jobs - I understand it's not the job you want him to have - and I KNOW that a job is to serve your marriage and family and NOT the other way around - but I know this, BECAUSE of MB - and I've been here since 2005...

Give your husband time...This won't happen overnight - Have FAITH - One day at a time...

From a favorite book of mine and Mr. W's called A Rich Man's Secret by Ken Roberts:

"Take the first step, no more, no less, and the rest will follow."

You guys have taken the first step...Relax a bit...

Assume that your husband has the BEST INTENTIONS where you are concerned - if he didn't, he wouldn't have agreed to coaching with Steve...

Life Is Good!

Mrs. W

P.S. Just an fyi: My daddy was in the car business in Atlanta [where I grew up]...He did everything from selling new cars - to being the finance manager - to owning his own used car lots - to wholesaling - That's a world I know very well...

Mrs. W

Mrs. W, I like your attitude and need to remind myslf of this whenever I see even small steps of progress.

Since he said that he would look for another job, I've backed way off on my complaints because I'm trying to assume the best intentions. That's why I said what I did about his (DJ) bonehead move on Friday, that I wasn't going to fret because I knew it wasn't going to be long!

At some points, though, I just feel stupid for believing good intentions.

Listen "Negative Nelly", if I have to get up from this chair, I'm gonna give you something to cry about...[ha - did your dad used to say that to you growin' up? Mine sure did!]

Obviously I'm kidding you - I know you are tired, but the TWO of you have just begun taking REAL steps - NOW is the time to be positive! To get EXCITED about what your marriage IS going to become - TOGETHER!

CWMI - GO to the MB Weekend - You live with a SALESMAN for goodness sakes! Of all people to take to an MB Weekend, YOU live with a GOLDMINE - salespeople are the easiest people in the world to sell to! Your husband has likely been through about a gazillion sales seminars - and KNOWS how to implement what he has learned from them - SAY THAT TO HIM! Tell him that you KNOW he will be the BEST at learning the MB Program from a Weekend BECAUSE of his amazing sales ability - BECAUSE of his DYNAMIC PERSONALITY...FEED THAT EGO - USE IT TO YOUR ADVANTAGE - AND HIS!

[Sorry to yell - I'm a salesperson at heart myself, and I find myself getting excited FOR you! ]

Did you know that the MB Weekend is backed by a money back guarantee? It's THAT good - IF the two of you work the program, you are GUARANTEED to fall romantically in love - Now, there is a challenge that a true salesperson can't resist!

I'm willing to bet that your husband is "sold" by "creating desire" in him - you just have to show him the "WOW" factor of MB - that's the easiest person in the world to sell to - Go sell him, CWMI!

Mrs. W

P.S. Thank you, Farmer - what a nice thing to say!

At the MB Weekend, Dr. Harley spends a lot of time on how and why a career is to serve the marriage and family and NOT the other way around - It's very pointed and impossible to deny - He talks about having doctors change careers even...

Sounds like that would be very beneficial for you guys to hear together - obviously NOT what you would use as a "selling point" with Mr. CWMI, though!

Mrs. W

I'll bring it up. I think it's a great idea to do the weekend.

(...mmm...weekend away without children...mmm...I'm sold. )

I really have to go spiff the house before my anal retentive demanding picky critical hard-working loving H comes home!

Mrs. W~~~><~~~CWMI