CW,

I hope you & Mr CW go to the MB weekend and I hope me & Mr Chris do too.

Inasmuch as your DH is messing up - you are messing up too. His area for improvement seems to be IBing & POJA and yours seems to be DJ.

A balanced perspective...especially seeing our own shortcomings...& a positive attitude go a long way CW.

You are doing a lot of DJing and complaining here....but maybe this is your vent venue. I use the forum that way too, so when I am dealing with my situation IRL - I have released the toxins. I hope it's the same for you.

cwmi, you posted something to the effect that you thought that those videos were posted to make you feel bad. And I didn't totally understand it, but accused jayne of harming you, too. Now, you may be right about your H deliberately promising and taking away the things that are most special to you; I don't know him. But over time I have built up a huge trust for Mark and jayne, and I'm offended that you picked at them this weekend the way you did. I think it's an unreasonable expectation that Mark would know that you would find the videos in poor taste. I think he posted it because he thought it had a message for you, not knowing that it was presented in a way you don't connect with. Once the folks posted that they didn't connect with these videos, he didn't post any more of them. The same way, jayne takes her time to be an ally to your marriage, too, the same goal you state. I don't like how you posted to these folks this weekend. I know you have real work you're working on here, so I won't go on if you don't understand me, but I feel like I have a responsibility to share my O&H with you on this.

I wasn't picking at Jayne. I didn't understand why she felt the need to go on and on about something that had nothing to do with what I posted and how she threw out "Be wary! That guy is a narcissist!" when what I posted was clearly not from that guy if someone had bothered to look at the page. In a healthy interaction, imo it should have dropped at "Oh, I was mistaken, sorry" and my "thank you" for that, but oh no...who carried it on? And why am I being accused of being the 'picker'?

Asking for clarity is not PICKING on anyone. It's saying, "I'm confused by what you did there. Will you enlighten me as to your intent?"

That's not picking.

That's admitting confusion and asking for clarity.

This is a dead-on summary of what NED asked you...and I don't see your answer in your reply.

Her POV was that you were picking...and your reply doesn't say your intent, just says you don't see yourself as picking. You see the other poster(s) as picking because they carried on. And I saw you carrying on, too. So how is that not picking, too?

So where's the clarity?

What was your intent?

LA

Let's see, LA...where are the questions in Ned's post that are asking for clarity?

I don't see any.

I see a whole lot of "I don't think this, so you shouldn't either."

I see that when Jayne posted misinformation, I corrected her ASSUMPTION and then asked for where she got her information.

And Jayne kept trying to prove herself right--the guy WAS a self=proclaimed narcissist!--but she had the WRONG PERSON. It's like saying, oh yeah, you think the sky is blue? Well look here what I found, a webpage that says water is two parts hydrogen and one part water, so HA!

CRAZY.

I do notice that Mark has not clarified his intent in posting those videos. It does appear to me that he has not apologized for offending people (not just me!) with them.

Like the video said, judge ACTIONS, not intent.

I get it...since NED didn't ask you for clarity as to your intent, you don't provide it, is that correct?

And Jayne apologized immediately upon realizing her error...how'd that work out for her? I'm with Mark on the not apologizing for the way you took his offering, excluding his intention. Looks to me like you won't accept apologies for mistakes, and you keep repeating the offense, again and again, as others can't get your point.

Not judging your intent, CW...was asking you for it. I understand I won't hear it. I have the same reaction to you that you have to others...that we keep repeating and repeating and you don't seem to get our point.

Two parts of communicating...the person to speak (to share) and the other person to receive (be shared with). I see in the way you write that to you, it's all one way...he said it therefore he offended others. Not their part of taking offense...which isn't all or nothing...just part. Which includes intent...like you're mixing up opinions with actions.

LA

CWMI...

Am I right that you're a pretty direct person? Not a lot of time for back and forth stuff that you *may* consider "silly girl chatter"? I would even bet that you sometimes find it shocking when people are offended by some of your posts - is that accurate?

Sometimes I wonder if you get misunderstood here - maybe, maybe not...Kinda reminds me of when I moved up North from down South - I was used to a lot of "sugarcoating", and when I got here, the people here do not do that - they are far more direct...Until I got used to it, I found myself crying a lot - Now, when I go home I have to be careful not to offend with my own directness...

I think people here aren't quite sure how to take you - Personally I bet that, in person, *I* would find you to be a riot - I love sarcasm - and I think you're pretty sharp when it comes to that - yes? That doesn't always translate well in the written word though - and I get a sense that people worry when they post to you about just how you will respond - kind of a "walk on eggshells" kind of deal...I wonder if you see that at all...

I look forward to hearing your thoughts...

Also, how did everything go from Saturday night on? Did you bring up the MB Weekend?

Mrs. W

I used to think that it was just CWMI's "personality". In fact, we spent a great deal of time talking here about the challenges of being an "idea" person (3% of the population). I have worked with a lot of people in that personality type, and have had very positive relationships with them.

Given that, I used to think that CWMI was simply misunderstood, attacked, and that she and I would probably be great friends in person. Some of my best friends have a bit of a "rough edge" (yankee here). I believed that when she felt safe enough, understood enough, that she would drop some of her defensiveness and could move TOWARDS other people... other posters, AND her husband.

However, I also think that a bleeding and wounded animal senses danger in every corner--even when someone is trying to help it. And if you're trying to help that creature, you have to be super-patient, suuper-gentle, and completely (only) focused on it in order to help.

I think CWMI is like that. Her standards are SO high--even for posters here. I cringe when she says things like "if anyone had bothered to look", as if there is no room for someone to miss something. As if the only thing that matters is what SHE says/wrote, and if you can't communicate her way, then she comes across as angry and hostile. I can not imagine how her husband deals with that--which is why I suggested she share her e-mail with Dr. Harley.

I think it's entirely possible that her husband feels completely overwhelmed by CWMI when things do not go the way she expects/imagines... whether it's in the planning, or the event, or the follow up conversation. I think she is (however unintentionally) incredibly hard on her husband, and I don't think she sees it at all, because she can't see it here.

In any case Mrs. W, you seem to have endless optimism and overflowing enthusiasm and praise. I hope that you can help CWMI make progress. I really do.

I truly and genuinely want her marriage with her husband to be a happy and fulfilling one. Unfortunately, I have found myself infuriated recently in posting to CWMI by what comes across as cavalier, entitled, victim style responses.

But I do suspect that she's at the end of her emotional rope.

Perhaps you (in your very admiring and positive way) can offer her something to hold on to.

Good luck to all of you!

Hmmm...How can I be direct, and yet not isolate tons of you ladies here?

I've read a lot of the interactions between CWMI and others - I'm not blind - blonde, sure! but, blind? No!

I think there is a a lot of comraderie over here amongst the ranks - and hey, that's GREAT, but sometimes...sometimes...bear with me - that comraderie can serve to isolate others - kwim?

I read the interaction between CWMI and jayne - from my understanding, they have had a bit of a "fallout" in the past...I thought it involved the two of them not "speaking" even...So I think there was some undercurrent within that interaction that made things seem kinda slanted...

Maybe I'm wrong - but allow me to tell y'all how it appeared TO ME - because I'm not a usual part of the group over here - I felt like I could see things *maybe* a bit more objectively - and the interaction reminded me a bit of what my little brother used to do to me - he was ever so sweet in outward appearance to my parents, while baiting the crap outta me behind their backs - then when I would SCREAM, I appeared to be the one at fault - the one causing all the discord...frankly, that SUCKED EGGS!

So, I'm not trying to step on any toes - [Jayne, I hope we're cool] - but that is the way I saw it from the outskirts...

Personally, I hope the whole thing can be dropped - I don't think it helps ANYONE here to go on and on about such matters - it's in no way Marriage Building, imo...and also I don't love talking about anyone in the third person - I find it disrespectful...

I'd sure appreciate being able to establish my own relationship with CWMI - if she is so inclined - and I hope no one takes offense to that request...there is certainly none intended...

Mrs. W

LA: I did provide an explanation of my intent. I provided one to the extent of my intent. If anyone wants something further from me, then just know I'll have to make something up, because I've put it all out there already. I'm open. I feel like I'm trying to be read beyond what I say, and I have to tell you, if you want to know what I feel, think, or do, just ask.

Maybe that's why I'm so hard to read.

Jayne apologized, I said thank you, and THEN SHE WENT ON. Am I the only one who sees that? Am I only one who sees that I said, "What is your point in continuing this angle?" She said she was pre-empting a question that I never once gave a thought to or asked. Of course she can't know what Q's I may ask. I tell you this: people who over-explain answers to unasked questions are often lying, trying to cya, or make themselves appear more intelligent than they are.

Mrs. W: Yes, you're correct, I'm pretty direct. I've lived long enough to not be surprised by the way some people take me. The way I see it is, if someone wants to dance around an issue and play nice while hiding true thoughts, they're not my people. I mean that in the nicest possible way. I don't think that people who play with niceties are BAD people, or necessarily deceptive, most definitely not purposely deceptive; I just think that there's a whole lot of people who err to the lowest form of social norms. I can't see any benefit to the 'feel good, you're a winner!' societal niceties that evade true morality. I don't want to make anyone feel bad. I also don't want to erroneously encourage anyone to do immoral or unjust things by ignoring them when they're done.

Gah, I sound like the moral police, and I'm not.

Really.

For instance, with our group, one of the guys wanted to do a surprise party for his wife's B-day at one of our upcoming meetings. Another person wanted to pre-empt that by throwing one first, for both the H and W, whose B-days are within days of each other. Everyone else was for that, except me, I thought that it would be offensive to override his plans to surprise his wife (which was so sweet, imho) while also making her party into a 'their' party, taking away from the original focus from the H's pov of wanting to do this for his wife.

It makes me feel like I live in crazy world. I was told, "We're HELPING him." What? By negating his awesome plans that his wife would be so pleased to know originated with HIM? What?

We've been great. Have not mentioned the weekend yet. Will do.

A straight shooter - I absolutely appreciate that - which is why I think Mel and I got along from the start...EVEN when she posted to me while I was a foggy nightmare and told me that what I was peddling they called~~~> in Texas!

Mrs. W

ITA! I always knew when one of my staff was lying to me, when they began spewing extraneous details...and I was always suspicious when they did what I considered a bit too much "butt kissing"...

[Not saying that anyone here was doing that]


Gotcha...Many people place far too much value on "nice words" and not enough on actual behavior...

Mrs. W

Of course! You can have whatever relationship with whomever you choose!

But... if you're going to speculate on how dynamics on this board between people play out--then expect some comments from the peanut gallery.

I mean, if someone had been sitting in a room watching multiple interactions between you and your brother, and had seen you running from person to person (including the person watching) only to kick them repeatedly... you might expect them to offer their opinion if it's being speculated about.

fwiw, I don't have any particular allies here, and try (TRY) to post with care to everyone--though I have been known to get aggravated at times (Irish/Italian gal that I am).

And I am sincerely GLAD to see someone new posting over here. I think you and Mr. W have a tremendous amount to offer on this board, as I've expressed. I've already been reminded of lots of good stuff.

But if you don't want comments from the peanut gallery, then don't make comments about the peanut gallery, kwim?

Computer's dying!

I mean, if someone had been sitting in a room watching multiple interactions between you and your brother, and had seen you running from person to person (including the person watching) only to kick them repeatedly...

Telly,

With all due respect, [after this post ], I'd prefer to bow out of the "side chatter" on CWMI's thread if possible - I can't see what it could possibly accomplish - my ONLY goal on this thread, is to hopefully assist CWMI with MBing...I need to build rapport with her to have any chance of that - back and forthing it over non-MB stuff doesn't seem to further that goal...My intent surely isn't to tick off others in the process - but it's looking like a tough fence to straddle...

Any chance y'all could help a sista out?

Respectfully,

Mrs. W

Get off the fence, Mrs. W, it looks painful. I would not want you to get sores from the barbs on my account.

Listen up Missy, your controversial butt best be worth it! I expect to see some serious selling of your husband on the MB Weekend idea...

I'm a pretty tough bird at this point - nearly 5 years on SAA toughens the hide...Well that, and hangin' around pesky Texans with pistols...

Mrs. W

lol...okay, hang on, then! Keep your arms and head inside the ride at all times.

So, write CW a script for the sale of MB to her H....the rest of us may benefit from it.

lol...so my computer was acting up earlier, so I went to get on his, and while I was on there, I thought a little snooping wouldn't hurt, so I took a look at his history and you'll never guess what I found.















Marriage Builders. LOTS of it.