Having read many of the postings during the past few months, I have found that many folks who have "betrayed" go through hoops to rationalize their relationship with the OP as a "fantasy." Many write that the OP told them what they wanted to hear. Apparently many OPs were only in it for the sex. The "betrayers" were apparently duped into having the affair.<P>These same writers then go to great pains about how much they want to work it out with their marriage partners and detail the ways to accomplish that end (and some of these ways are demeaning or pathetic). The "betrayers" do as much fantasizing about what they think their marriage will be as they claim to have done during the affair.<P>Maybe I am just too pragmatic or too willing to call a spade a spade. The harm I see in getting so "psyched up" using "fantasy" images of what MIGHT be is that the fall will be tremendously painful when it doesn't pan out. A fantasy is a fantasy whether during an affair or when dreaming about that "perfect" union with the legal mate.<P>Don't mean to throw water on anyone's fire. Just want to add a touch of reality to the discussion.<P>Any thoughts?

When I first started posting here in June, I wrote almost exactly what you just wrote. And I agree with you for the most part. However, I also think that if this works for what people want or need in their life, i.e. rebuilding their marriage, then why not use this approach? Isn't it better to rationalize and justify the "right thing to do" than to do the same for the "wrong thing"?

The way to solve the problem is to look at the relationship and ensure you do things for the partner in ways the partner wants them. Yes, we all change & we have to understand these changes in order for us to meet the needs of the other. No one taught us how to be married & what we need to do to keep the relationship alive, not just existing. The people having affairs have not learned how to either meet the needs of their partner or how to express their own needs to their partner, which is why the affair will die sooner (hopefully) or later. The marriage relationship failed in their mind & it was the betrayed’s fault, not their own. But the rush of an affair makes them blind to this fact. If I’m so happy now without my spouse, then it must have not been my fault. But after time, they start to see some of the same behavioral patterns emerging in the affair & suddenly they realize this person is no better than the spouse.<P>We have an advantage in that we want to salvage the relationship, we have a history with them, probably children, shared life experiences, etc. Hopefully they will see all of this & want to return.<P>As long as we apply certain relationship principles and keep them up forever, the relationship cannot go anywhere except up! I believe most of us got complacent in our marriages & that is when the problems started.<P>Whew! Sorta long winded, but get my drift?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

BB, I think it depends on what kind of fantasy you are talking about. If it's a realistic fantasy than why not. Communication is the key. I don't believe in fulfilling ever fantasy, and we all have them. My H does express them to me and I to him what we want. I told him that I like it when he touches me in ways not just for sex and it makes my interests increase for that purpose (kinda tease me). He has been working on it. Now he will sit on the couch and just rub my back or put his arm around me with no expectations. It has worked great I get what I want, affection with no expectations, he gets what he wants much more often. He asked me to touch him in certain ways and I am working on that also. A marriage is give and take, 100% on both parts or at least working toward that. I feel if a H or W have fantasys they should tell their spouses instead of acting it out somewhere else. Infact we have conversations about that very thing, fantasys, not all the time but on occation. I don't think it's healthy to talk about something like that all the time, but once in a while, whats the harm? One of mine is to go camping, just H and me and have a very romantic time under the stars that God created for us to look at. Keep the romance alive!!<BR>Ginn

Thanks for the replies.<P>TryingAgain, Chris and Ginn,<P>I know what you are saying, but that's my whole problem with fantasizing for the "right reasons." A fantasy is a fantasy--it is something that can never be. It is easy to keep a fantasy alive while the fire is still hot (or the interst is still there to rebuild the marriage). Time will cool the interest, and then the big fall will occur. Just as many writers here consider themselves fools for having the affair, they will consider themselves fools as well for believing in the "rebuilding" fantasy. Without a big dose of reality, the probability of failure is high.<P>During my personal and professional life, I have seen too many people committing to something with naivite, with wonderful intentions, but lose interest and fall back as they were or even worse. This can involve improving work habits, losing weight, quitting smoking, and working with relationships. Especially when people are hurting, they will commit to a lot of things, maybe even for the right reasons, but the fantasy will not last. Monday morning eventually comes.<BR>

You are talking about 2 different types of fantasies. While in an affair, the "fantasy" is that the person you are sneaking around with is wonderful and your spouse left behind is horrible, and you in the middle are not causing problems for either one. The betrayer forgets about all the day to day things that NEED to occur in life. It is like when you were a child playing house. It is just not possible to live that way when there are bills, jobs, kids, etc.<P>The "fantasy" of a working marriage can be true if both people are willing to realize what a great marriage takes. If both spouses are willing to share what their "ideals" are with each other, and both are willing to do what they can to accoplish those things, your fantasy CAN BE reality. Of course, when thinking about what you want with your spouse, you already know the pressures from bills, jobs, kids, etc. and are able to make your "fantasy plans" around those obsticales.<P>You say that the probability of failure is high. Dr. Harley has had a 90% success rate with his methods. That to me means the probability of success is high.

BB;<P>What you're calling a "fantasy" is a desire to work on rebuilding a marriage. And it can succeed, through times that you would think it was impossible. It's true that if you commit to this without being ready to do the hard work, and to use the proper resources, you can fail. <P>But you can succeed. If you use the proper resources, you'll have good odds of succeeding. More often than not, those who go through the "Marriage Builder" process succeed, regardless of the state of their marriage. <P>I've succeeded. Lots of others have too. And even wonderful people like Distressed and ATW, who look like they're facing divorces, are going to PERSONALLY succeed.<P>What alternatives are you suggesting? Just quitting doesn't really aid the healing---it doesn't make you feel like a success.

Shoni,<P>I respectfully disagree with your assertion that a fantasy can be a reality. It is harmful for a person to seriously think that a fantasy can be a reality when he or she is considering major life changes.<P>Dr. Harley's 90% success rate is a quantitative figure, not a qualitative one. Perhaps, in raw data and percentages, 90% of the couples he counsels do stay together (for a lifetime, we still do not know), but the quality of those marriages cannot be measured. Just because a couple stays together does not mean the marriage is a success. Consider a person who stays on at a miserable job for life. They thought of leaving for a better position somewhere else, but decided to be positive at the current job. Sure, he or she didn't change jobs, but they are not as happy as they would have been if they had moved on.<P>Quanititative results mean nothing without researching the qualititative aspects of those results. Most importantly, a fantasy can never be a reality. <P>Again, I don't wish to be negative. I just want to add some reality to the conversation.

You were exactly right (k) when you said that you have to want to do the hard work and be ready to do it to save a marriage. I knew that with my ex husband after he found out about my affair. I knew in my heart that even if there were no other man I didn't want to work that hard. If I would have stayed in the marriage out of obligation or guilt, it would have failed anyhow. The effort and the "want" has to strongly be there for both.<P>

K,<P>I know what you're saying. Maybe "fantasy" should be replaced with "dreams" which actually are achievable.<P>While Marriage Builders can provide some useful tools, I think that the tools provide a temporary band-aid for many relationships that have no business continuing. I'm sure that you can claim success in your personal situation. I don't doubt it for a minute. Many people do not have the staying power when it comes to applying "tools." This is no reflection on the goodness and usefulness of the tools--it's entirely human nature. The day-to-day stresses that are a part of everyone's lives have a way of pushing aside "tools" without regard to the original good intentions.<P>No, I don't think people should just up and quit, but I think a little discernment should be applied when considering what made the marriage falter in the first place. Too many people get caught up in "get fixed quick" schemes (just like "get rich quick schemes") and try to fix something that never was broken--it just never was.<P>Again, congratulations on your success. Success stories are out there; however, the real successes, like yours, are few and far between.<P>

BB;<P>I'm going to disagree with you here. <P>First off, arranged marriages in many societies work very well (and there is true love). Why is this??? Skill training plays an important part.<P>I'm probably less of a "romantic" where love and marriage is concerned---even more pragmatic than you. Do I believe that my wife is the only woman I'm capable of loving? No---not even close. I think that most people are "capable" of being in very happy marriages with a large percentage of the population; provided that they learn these skills and techniques for making a marriage work.<P>But she's my wife. I chose her. And I choose to love her.<P>Even in a marriage that "never was", there's no reason that with learning to apply these techniques and skills can't result in a fabulous marriage. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think that the tools provide a temporary band-aid for many relationships that have no business continuing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's not the marriage's "inherent faultiness" that's the problem. It's not (usually) incompatible, horribly mismatched people in marriages. It's just two people who felt something (love?) for each other when they got married---they didn't have the skill set to adapt and change in the marriage, and this has lead to the problems. You have to learn these skills for developing and deepening love---if you don't, you'll hop from relationship to relationship.<P>Now there are marriages that suffer from serious problems: substance abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse---an extremely abusive person is not a suitable marriage partner until they have their problems under control. Most of the marriages that we see here aren't of that variety. And they can be fixed.<P>Now---the MarriageBuilder principles sound "simple" (and they are), and they may seem like a quick fix. But they're not. I've worked my a$$ off for two years working on these skills, and I'm still not finished. I'm a heck of a lot better than I was, but I still see areas to improve in. I think to be successful in a marriage, you must practice these "Rules". And Harley's "success rate" is based on bringing couples back together in HAPPY relationships---it's not just to cohabitate miserably. So the successes are out there and they're not that rare. Even among the people who have visited this board (and we're a biased population---towards the "tough cases"), there are a surprising number of successes. And there are NO people (that I can recall) who have gone through this process, and learned these skills, that have regretted doing so.<p>[This message has been edited by K (edited August 20, 1999).]

K,<P>Thanks for your response. I agree that a couple can learn to get along and have a love and admiration for each other. That can be accomplished through varying levels of work and dedication. <P>One of my main problems with forums such as this is that primarily only one side of the story is written, and responses, while well-intentioned, could do more harm than good. In fact, many responses might be totally different if the full story were known. How this affects the person doing the posting, we can only guess. There is a real danger, in my opinion, with getting advice from other armchair "psychologists" who are hurting too.<P>Again I commend you for your success in using the Marriage Builders tools to build your marriage. I am skeptical about the premise that Harley's success rate is based on happy marriages rather than intact marriages subsequent to counseling. Is this qualitative research published, and how frequently does Dr. Harley contact his population of couples to confirm that they are still happy and intact? I would be happy to admit that I'm wrong if I could read the data.<P>As an observer of human nature--it's a part of my professional life--I find it hard to believe that the average person would remain faithful to these tools longer than a year, if that person does not perceive sufficient value in that relationship. <P>I'm not unusually cynical about people in general. Working for people, supervising people, dealing with clients, socializing with friends--all give a rounded perspective of the average person. Most are good folks, but they have differing levels of commitment to whatever the objective might be. <P>K, you're a dedicated man to marriage building. Although we'll have to agree to disagree on aspects of this subjective issue, I seriously commend you for your dedication. Thank you very much for your input.

BB,<P>I want to tell you that I agree with almost everything you have said. You've been able to put my thoughts into words much better than I ever could. <P>I think that people are drawn to the type of forum or tools that work for them. There are a number of different forums, each with a slightly different approach to recovering from infidelity. The people who stay here want to hear the advice they are getting here. Many of them are in therapy or marriage counseling for a more professional opinion.<P>Fantasy is often not only dreams but also what we believe in. These beliefs, whether they are fantasy or fiction translate into behavior. If one decides, on a pragmatic level, what one wants to do in their life, one can change to make it into reality.<P>My situation, for instance, does not leave me much choice; I have 3 young children. A future with the OP, however wonderful, was never meant to be. I have set my goal to stay with my husband.<P>As far as the long-term efficacy of the Marriage Builders tenants on the marriages that use them, it would be interesting to know about that. I think that affairs are a crisis situation which require different tools than a long-term marriage does. Couples may give up on the tools after the crisis is over but in the process I think so much is learned that they are better equipped to go on with their marriage in an improved way.<P>Happiness in a marriage is probably much like happiness in life. It comes from within. Although life-mates and circumstances can affect our happiness, our inate sense of happiness determines how we view and accept those external influences. <P>There are always people who don't give up their principles (or morals) in the face of extreme circumstances. There are others who throw in the towel immediately. I don't think you will find the latter type at this forum.

K,<BR>I always think your advice is really sound. I enjoy reading your posts.