I agree.

Listen to PSUBIKER about this. There is a poster on here, patriot45, and he LISTENED to the posters about getting a VAR which was a good thing because when his WW tried to pull the DV card, she got arrested instead.

I already have 1 Olympus, I think I need another. WE have made peace for this evening, but she's having a tough time wrapping her head around why she has to be radically honest.

I gave her a shopping analogy b4 bed that I think set her wheels spinning, we also agreed to counseling together and separate. I fear her main objective in counseling will be to demonstrate how wrong spouse surveillance is.

Thanks everyone, will update on HER bday tomorrow.

Couples counseling in her state of mind will basically be confessing all your sins. You may or may not be able to find a good therapist. Take a look at the link here on how to find a good coach. Think about using the coaching center here, although it is not covered by Insurance for a number of reasons. Steve Harley has a reputation of being able to get through to wayward wives.

How to find a Good Marriage Counselor

Probably your best bet if you can't use the Harleys, is to have your individual counseling session, followed by one for her, then the two of you figure out what you have learned, if anything. I have seen more than one marriage totally screwed up by idiot counselors.


That was just one quote from Dr. Harley's post re the link above.

Larry

Thanks for the info Larry. I would certainly love to speak w Dr. Harley, but fear I must go in a different direction due to:

a. budget
b. WW will view it as impartial, due to my use of this site

Key question: Are you PRO MARRIAGE and what does that mean to YOU, the counseling coach?

Larry

I like that 1 alot. I might insist on Dr. Harley AND a session w someone that she chooses.

Actually you will get Steve Harley or Jennifer. Steve has the reputation for really doing good with wayward wife mentality.

He will talk with each of you privately at first, then shift to both of you when you are ready.

Generally Steve is able to get a lot done in a couple of sessions, things that most counselors take six or seven to arrive at. I have seen him get a bunch done in just one session, but that was a less complex situation than you have.

I have no idea how you convinced your wife to go to counseling or the example you used. Remember, the more you tell us, the more explanation, the more help we can give you. So uncork the mouth and let it all hang out. The quality of the content and the number of posters will increase. And besides, if your narrative expands to more detail, someone might notice something important.

AND, he said, she said is a good journal of events, if you know what I mean.

Larry

When people get trapped into the cycle of jealousy, despair and confusion, going round and round like okg has... they end up focusing all their energy on the "Drama" and none of it on growing, restoring, or nurturing a healthy relationship. The fact is, we become our worst selves, with the worst sides of our nature on full display. When we're like that, we're "Ugly" not "Attractive"...

It's almost as if one simply "ceases to be" the man that attracted the lady to begin with. So if the relationship is suffering, or is up in the air, instead of getting all heavy and constantly dramatic (and a raging ball of insecurity), you need to pull the plug on that heavy crap and revisit the "you" that first put a smile on her face, made her consider you "for life", and all that...

It's a simple fact. Women are not generally attracted to that kind of insecurity, uncertainty, and drama... and especially not in a relationship! e.g. if you're that insecure about HER you are not confident enough to protect your mutual "nest"...


If they're already beginning to pull away, the constant drumbeat of drama will only drive them further.
Start behaving in ways that make you sexy in her eyes.... find out what turns her on, and encourage those feelings to return.. if she's being made to laugh often, and feels adored it'll almost always rekindle those feelings. You don't waste any effort on rehashing the drama... you behave confidently. Unconcerned with that, because you know you're "her man"... I promise that attitude will give her pause!

Reinforce her decision to be with you without ever talking about it. Certainty sometimes needs occasional reinforcement. If we just blow out and get ugly, it's exactly the opposite of what's needed. You probably never once have to address the "issues". Just change her mind......... she won't even know what hit her.

If you're steady on, they'll feel good and stick by you. If you go off in a panic, do a total meltdown, they're left asking "who's going to take care of me??" They'll eventually start looking for "someone"... that's for sure...

I think an excellent place to start is by following closely the EN article on conversation:

>>>>"Conversation fails to meet this need when (1) demands are made, (2) disrespect is shown, (3) one or both become angry, or (4) when it is used to dwell on mistakes of the past or present. Unless conversation is mutually enjoyable, a couple is better off not talking to each other at all. An unpleasant conversation not only fails to meet the emotional need, but it also makes it less likely that there will be an opportunity to meet the need in the future. That's because we tend to prevent our spouse from meeting our needs if earlier attempts were painful to us."<<<<

I have found with every woman I have known "Unless the conversation is mutually enjoyable" she will not lesson to a single word that is said.
Run every word you are about to say through that conversation filter and you will be surprised at the result.

It surprised me that's for sure. The change was dramatic.

Jack Black - There is much truth to your post. She is definitely a 'button pusher' who uses many of the tactics considered unfair negotiating, I react with rage and demands...and then she reacts with rage and attacks insecurities... Not good. This pattern will escalate and I know that it must end. The kids witnessed the battle of the bulge yesterday!!!

The saying 'keep your fights clean and your S_X dirty' comes to mind. Our fights are really, really dirty :-(

On a positive note, she admitted that her argumentative style was way out of line yesterday, that she reacted badly to my 'preachy...talk down to her...attitude.' I don't think I did that, but if she views me that way, then obviously I must modify the way I discuss things with her.

Th background on WHY we needed to talk about negotiating with all the cards on the table:
1. She was invited to an Easter candy party yesterday afternoon and was it was agred in advance that she would take S4 with her while I took S10 and S7 to baseball.
2. Rec'd txt and fb msgs on Friday saying 'no kids, adult-theme'.
3. One of the gals who would be at the party is a prostitute (and bisexual who unsuccessfully propositioned the 2 of us when we were dating 13 yrs ago, b4 she held her current profession). Two of the other girls are very promiscuous divorced women who have recently had threesomes, etc.
4. When asked why she couldn't take S4, wife replied, 'b/c we don't want the kids to see the candy b4 Easter.' I told her that if she couldn't be honest with me about the real reason, that she wasn't making me feel comfortable with her going there, but left the decision up to her.
6. She wound up not attending, but calling her 2 GF's to complain about how overbearing and insecure I am.

My analogy about honest negotiating was this (b/c she didn't get my poker analogy):
"If you bought a toy for one of the kids at full price, but you found out that the person who sold it to you knowingly sold you a broken toy, would you be upset? Would you trust them to sell you something intact and working next time?"

She says she didn't want to tell me about the adult-theme bc I wouldn't let her go. I told her that it's not fair to tell little white lies to ensure that she gets what she wants.

I also said that if she continues telling little white lies (she tells them daily), pretty soon I'm not going to believe a word that comes out of her mouth.

A couple of points.

I agree with Jack regarding being as attractive as possible. But that leaves a lot of the wedding vows out.

I, (name), take you (name), to be my (wife/husband), to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish; from this day forward until death do us part.

You see what I mean. For better for worse, in sickness and health.

Let me tell you. Monday is our 30th wedding anniversary. And we have (like most marriages) had both extremes. I mean you can be as attractive and wonderful as you can possibly be, but you're still going to see the extremes. That's how marriage and life works. You make sacrifices when you marry. You can't sleep with whoever you want. You have to do dishes, wiping kids noses (and the other end) and at some point you may be wiping your spouses too. That's what its all about.

You have to tell your wife that her friends are not friends of your marriage. They are not good for it. If she chooses them, that fork in the road leads to meaningless sexual encounters, divorce and destroyed lives. The other fork is a solid loving marriage. She needs to see this.

And for your counselor and your wife. Based upon her past behavior (recent). She is actively seeking to have emotional/physical relationships with other men. This point must be brought out and addressed. The counselor must know about the prostitute and the swinging friends. And your wife must clearly be made to see that she has choice. She can't have the hot sex with strangers and a loving whole family. Tell her its not about honesty and transparency (though those are tools). Its about making a life decision. You must make this plain, and she must choose one. No dipping her foot in both.

OTH, I completely agree.

FYI - I think she blames ME for discovering what she was up to b4 anything went physical with OM1 or OM2 last year. Like she was entitled to see if that was her "real destiny" or some B.S. of that nature.

I think she is really telling herself she can continue this risky behavior and not act on anything (she has said as much), b/c last summer was 'different.'

Also, I don't know who GF#2's marriage counselor is, but apparently lying to your spouse is sanctioned there, as she fully supports WW's approach to getting what she wants. "So what" were her exact words. I must avoid counsel like this at all costs.

Your situation is simple. I always like simple. And here is my read:

Your wife's associations are pulling her to a hedonist lifestyle, one that conflicts with your own values, dreams and goals of life. Her friends paint this exciting picture of life in the fast lane, one that is not boring and is full of pleasure and no responsibilities. Oh joy, especially for a woman who is working hard to defeat the effects of age and entropy on her appearance.

They do not inform her of the consequences, unintended and otherwise, of that lifestyle. Her influential friends do not tell her of the broken husbands, broken children, stds, the addiction, and the loss of self respect as a hedonist spirals down into the depths of delusion. They don't tell her because either they don't know the train wreck of their own lives is approaching, or they just want company while they commit emotional suicide.

In her fantasies, your job is to take care of the responsibilities, freeing her up to take on the pleasures of the lifestyle her friends present.

Any LPC who supports that lifestyle should have their license pulled. They know better since most have seen the pitiful remains of human wrecks who tried it. The coming of an emotional train wreck is as inevitable as the sun coming up in the East for those who get into "Alternative" lifestyles that emphasize pleasure over principle; feeling good over doing what is right and the pleasures of life instead of the responsibilities. Children already born need grownup parents, not the self absorbed. Want proof? It is all over the web.

Your wife is thinking in the now frame. She is only concerned with dealing with her feelings of need for excitement and only some sort of residual caution has kept her from jumping in with all four feet. In fact, she may have already done so and is concealing it from you. I don't have enough information to make a guess one way or the other.

She is looking for validation she has still got "It," potentially at any cost to herself, you and her children. She values the excitement over responsibility. She wants to be a carefree teenager again instead of a mother and wife with grownup responsibilities. Does that look right? You know her.

There is absolutely nothing you can do to change her mind. You do not control her. That said, you can control yourself and thereby adopt a different attitude for yourself, one that promotes the joy any person can get from traditional relationship and traditional values that are SAFE.

Safety is your fishing lure.

Simply put, a traditional mom, dad and the kids relationship is safe. A hedonist lifestyle isn't safe. And I suspect that deep down, she understands that and is somewhat fearful of it.

If you can burn into your brain the words above and adopt the mantra of safety for her and the kids as first and foremost in your dealings, you can influence her. Not only that, you can influence ANY therapist with that same presentation of a lifestyle choice.

It resonates.

Larry

After long, calm talk today, we have come away with the following:

I am probably clinically depressed or PTSD or whatever.

She loves me but hasn't felt attracted to me b/c I look down, act serious, and am generally glum 90% of the time, plus I'm not giving her any fun. This is a major factor in why she hasn't fully returned from her alien hijacking.

This group of gf's is fun, hence her wanting to hang w them instead of me. She admits the danger. She also wants to help her friend get out of the biz. I may suggest phone-only support to help her friend find a new line of work, and therapist for the GF to help her deal w her sexual issues.

She is generally hopeful that I will return to the smiling MAN that she fell in love with, instead of the depressed BOY she sees me as right now.

Most likely meds for me in the next few days and couples therapy as soon as we can get in.

Now, off to try and celebrate her b-day as a married pair.

Okguy,

You may very well be clinically depressed or suffering from PTSD and anti-Ds may help but that requires the diagnosis of a clinical psychologist. Her recent EAs and risky behavior have resulted in an extreme loss of trust and your understandable need for constant surveilance is enough to depress anyone. Your W accepts no blame for the condition of your M or the EAs. Her current behavior is unacceptable in ANY relationship and she blames it on your depression???? She is just as wayward as any BS on here who has been having sex outside of their M for months because while she is unwilling to admit it, she is actively looking for an A.

Have you read the information on this site? It is a relationship goldmine. You need to Plan A your W just as though there were already an OM because there is definately going to be one if you do not make some serious changes in your M. Read everything you can about Plan A. Set out to win your W like you did when you were dating her, set out to make changes in yourself and be the best Okguy that you can be. Decide what your boundaries are and stick with them. Many things are unacceptable in M and lying to get your own way and engaging in behavior that is risky and dangerous to your M and family are at the top of that list.

Order the book LoveBusters because you admittedly use many of those yourself. Then get and read Fall in Love, Stay in Love. This program works if you employ it. I would also scrape together enough cash for at least one session with the Harleys. They will help you devise a plan based on you and your W.

You desperately need a plan.

God's Blessings,

Say

OK

What a bunch of baloney. Sorry


Well, that is hope.


Please OK, go back and read what I said in that long post about her attitude and head games.

You glum? Of course. You are looking an alien in the eye, one who acting out the destruction of your marriage on the alter of "Having fun." Is her idea of fun the same as your idea?

Marriage fun is different from hedonist fun.

I know you love her. That is a good thing. Please don't take on guilt you don't deserve.

Larry

I do not condone anything she has done and I have agreed to nothing as far as ending surveillance goes. My guard is still up, as much as I can have it up. She knows this, but not the extent of it.

In addition to MC, I think I need psych help, she wants me to go too. I think that is a good idea, as this is affecting every facet of my life, including my job.

She should get her own as well, but I can't help fearing we may never erase the New Age (Selfish) brainwashing she's given herself over the last 6 or 7 yrs. Thanks Oprah!!!

I'm not sure I want her if she really believes some of the ___ she's fed me from those books. (Not to say everything in those books is bad, just that she has used them to justify selfishness and lack of compassion.)

She has told me she isn't going anywhere, I think she is still on the fence, though I think it is promising that she didn't go yesterday, and that she has agreed to MC. Only time will tell.

All I can do is take care of my self, be a good H and father, maintain hope, and pray. I know I cannot take any responsibility for her behavior, only mine. I will re-read more on Plan A tonight.

Really glad I found MB. Thank you everyone, I appreciate your advice and experience.

Do not leave your home- she wants to separate- that she moves. You don't and the kids stay with you.

I'm thinking you should examine that "It's coming back again!" comment she made to her friend that you taped. If she's not desiring you and you can't time that to your sexual encounters then who has been relieving the tension?

DO NOT LEAVE YOUR HOME

OKG

What you need to do is go outside, sit down on the steps, have a smoke, and calmly decide just long you want to torcher yourself.

You can hold onto this for years, or can let it go.

Do you really want to be in this same place next year, constantly raking over the same negatives, with all the same anxiety and insecurities?

Dont forget, nothing has happened so far in your relationship that has taken it to the point of no return.
Everything so far can easily be accepted/forgiven and you can move forward.

It is a very good sign that your wife is willing to work with you to help your relationship move forward. She seems to me to be a woman that has not completely lost the plot, but someone that actually wants to have a good marriage.
I am not saying her behavior has been perfect.
Work with her.

I am not confident "Therapy & drugs" are the answer.
I have had to tell people I know to give up therapy so that they could move on and get better. I hope you have better luck.

Plan A is about you developing a calm assurance and returning to the fun cool guy you used to be.
It can be you tomorrow, if you want it to be.