Here is something you can try at home while you are alone. Try making love with your hands....to a soft fruit.

1. Try it gently
2. Try it lovingly
3. Try it confidently, you WILL pleasure that fruit!
4. Try it roughly, you will force that fruit to enjoy1
5. Try it gently and teasingly
6. Try it with a cute technique, and then confidently and roughly
7. Vary the techniques and end with gently
8. Have your hands exude total confidence
9. Have that fruit begging for more
10. Tell that fruit it will be screaming your name!
11. Manipulate that fruit as if you have done it 1000 times before!
12. Show the fruit you know EXACTLY how to turn it on. (even if you dont)
13. Often a woman gets turned on by a man who acts AS IF he knows how to turn her on.
14. Pretend you are highly experianced in turning women, and fruit on.

Hands alone can show a lot of emotion when touching a partner in bed. You want that emotion to show CONFIDENCE, CARING, AND SKILL>

Pretend the fruit "pushes your hand away" as if it does not like what you are doing. What is your response.

1. You can immediately try another techique
2. You can yell out, "Harder"? (you are asking, do you need it harder)
3. You can yell out, "softer? and keep going
4. "Slower? " (what you are really saying is do you need it slower...)

DO NOT EVER MAKE COMPLETE SENTENCES IN BED! ONLY ONE OR TWO ACTION WORDS. A COMPLETE SENTENCE IS A TURN OFF.

SEVERAL COMMUNICATIONS, some good some bad in bed when using touching:

1. Let me know what you want me to do.
2. Oh, you pushed my hand away... do you want it differently?, tell me what you want.
3. Do you want it harder of softer?
4 HARDER?
5. SOFTER?
6. TOO HARD?
7. No words, just change technique by her responses.(advanced sexuality 101)


Remember all of the above. NEVER break the FLOW of the touching/lovemaking. It should be one continuous motion from the beginning to the end (20 minutes or whatever) DO NOT QUIT TOUCHING THEM EVEN IF YOU SAY A FEW ACTION WORDS. You can back off on the touching or touch a different area, or something different or touch differently...but

DO NOT TAKE YOUR HANDS OFF THAT "TABLE"!!!! NO MATTER IF THEY TRY AND PUSH THEM AWAY. ( YOU CAN ALSO GRAB THIER HANDS gently AND PUT THEM WHERE YOU WANT THEM.) IF YOU STOP YOU WILL BLOW IT. YOU MUST CONTINUE AND CONTINUOUSLY CHANGE TECHNIQUES OR WHATEVER.....EVEN IF YOU SAY AN ACTION WORD OR TWO.

Now, which do you do in bed. Is it 1,2,or 3? Then I can tell you those are BAD. Only 4,5,6 and later 7 are good effective and will bring out the best in the other pwerson. My husband knows me so well he does #7 all the time. Of course I am good at responding with my body, etc. I give him clues by smiles, words like YES... etc.

This is how a confident lover brings out the sexuality in a damaged partner or a partner who does not know (yet) or is unable to express to you what makes them feel good.

YOU have to be firmly in the drivers seat. Forget intercourse, practice on pleasing each other without it. Once you get that down pat, the IC will come.

I'm so sorry to hear about your situation this morning. My heart goes out to both of you.


I had promised myself to stay away from posting for a few days, and after this I'm going back into lurk mode for the weekend. But this statement and your follow-ups really jumped out at me. Maybe it's because I've just finished reading the story of the Prodigal and the story of the woman caught in adultry. Read them if you get a chance, and notice that "the father" and Jesus do not condemn the "guilty" parties. The father welcomes back his wayward son no questions asked, no demands for changed behavior or atitude. And Jesus does not condemn the woman who was CAUGHT! Rather, he reminds the crowd that all of us are sinners. They thought they were "better than" because the sin appeard worse. Sin is sin, and we all have it. Comparing ourselves to make ourselves feel better is a lie.

If you or I were perfect, then what would we need God for?

"Shame" is a mask for "pride." It is false humility. Knowing that, or believeing it, doesn't make the shame go away, but puts it in perspective, at least for me.

I am sure with every fiber of my being that God isn't laying in wait to punish you for whatever you have or haven't done with your life. We do our best, even when it isn't "the" best, until we know better and can begin to do better. The worst "sin" I can think of is to refuse to let our God love us. He doesn't do it for our sake, or because we earn it or deserve it. He loves us because GOD IS LOVE. All that is required is that we love back, the best we can, even when our best sucks. Because even the loving of Mother Teresa "sucks" when compared to the love that God is capable of.

OK, down from the pulpit.

On a lighter note, I will never look at fruit the same way again!

Yes, I am only human but God allows us humans to try and help other human beings. God is a lot more lvoing than you think. HE does not delight in punishment (there is a verse that says just that)

Fruit!!! LOL

But to practice on fruit is better than fumbling around in bed. !!!!!

Good advice. And as it happens, I only do #7. She never responds to verbal questions so I long ago stopped asking.

When she pushes my hand away, how do you feel about my saying "not yet"?

Shabbat Shalom, Hold.

Thank you Mark.

Nice weekend. Much time spent doing yardwork with S15. D13 did very well at her synchro meet, and was very pleased that S15 and I got up early to drive over and watch her. Any time her big brother pays attention to her stuff she is thrilled.

Have been very depressed this week. Mrs. Hold is trying not to add to my burdens. But it is obvious she does not find me very attractive when I am this way (not that I blame her, I am not attractive in this state). So she cannot help in ways that would be meaningful to me.

I feel very alone, despite receiving numerous hugs from D13 and despite S15 asking if I am coming to his team's pot luck dinner tonight. I figure when a teenage boy asks you to join them at an event, that is as close as you can expect them to come to saying they love you. And he seemed pleased that I attended a school event with him Tuesday night as well.

Are you guys sure I can't do ECT to reboot my brain?

Oh Hold.

Why are you feeling depressed this week?

Can you make time to go in and get a massage or something? Something physical to release those endorphins that are so depleted?

(((((((Hold))))))))))

Why are you feeling so alone? What WOULD help you feel better?

Do you have any time off left, and do you have good insurance? I would love to see you do an intensive out-patient therapy...Like in treatment all day, and out at night.

I'm so sorry you feel alone and unloved. You ARE loved, and you DO matter.

Hold,

How are you doing today?

Hold, this may sound strange at first, but bear with me. I think you are brave. Yes, you are. Because you are not afraid to tell your truth. You say what you do and do not feel...and believe it or not, there are many other people out there who do or do not feel the same thing. When you have written that you do not think things will ever change and you are to afraid to try anymore, I thought, "Yeah, that's how I feel at times...heck, sometimes that's how I feel all the time." You seem to have thrown off the "mold" of the so-called mainstream. The word mainstream makes me laugh because I really don't think there IS a real mainstream, at least not the one most of us think of. I used to look like I fit that mainstream, back when my hair was long and the blond was natural and I wore a size 6 and I smiled all the time. That was then, and I don't relly know many people who actually live that way. And you aren't afraid to challenge that, that idea that EVERYTHING in the universe somehow will make sense if we sing kumbaya and make it make sense.

Yeah, I know that sounds depressing, but here's my point. One thing we talked about in the hospital was honesty - the real kind. That glossing over or stuffing down or saying "oh yeah, that makes sense" when it really doesn't will not help any recovery or coping; it will in fact do this opposite is true. It is the person who is honest enough to say, and keep saying for as long as they need to, "this sucks, and it has sucked so long I don't know how to care about it anymore," who is closer to real recovery. Because they are honest at the most gut level. And that is what you do. When someone says something that - in your world right now - sounds absolutely ludicrous or unattainable, you don't do the luri thing. You don't cave and say, "You're right. I'm just not thinking right." If you think it's ridiculous you hold firm. Someone will have to convince you. Yeah, it's stubborn, but at least you are who you are. I had forgotten how to do that.

So, I think the fact that you are willing to say you are afraid of certain things and that you don't care about certain things or that you don't understand or even buy certain things is brave. Because you are pushing for something real, not something pat. Pat sounds good and makes everyone hold hands and feel comfortable, but in the midst of agaonizing pain, pat is almost insulting.

So, anyway, good for you. If you keep saying exactly what is in your head, I think something has to come of it eventually.

Thanks for the words of support. No particular trigger for why I am depressed. I had a great weekend. Then woke up Monday powerfully depressed.

My love language is physical touch. When I am stressed or depressed, I want hugs.

Mrs. Hold is the opposite. When she is stressed, the last thing she wants is to be touched. Last night she bought some sports apparrel for S15 at the team dinner. He said he did not want it or need it. It is not returnable. Mrs. Hold felt bad she overspent (yay, she is finally on board that overspending is bad). I told her it was no big deal. I offered her a hug. She pushed me away. She said "that doesn't help me."

So while I intellectually know that this is partly about her and not 100% about me. I still feel lonely. Because she doesn't have any hugs to offer me.

I remember a long running discussion on another board. About yellow crayons. Along the lines of one spouse asking to borrow the other's yellow crayon. The second spouse responds "I don't have a yellow crayon." The first replies "but you have a box of 64 crayons in your hand, surely one of them is yellow?" Maybe. Maybe not. Sometimes your spouse just doesn't have a yellow crayon in their box. I don't think Mrs. Hold has "hug for spouse to empower him when he feels weak" inside her. She just doesn't.

Hold, have you seen Mr. W's posts on the POJA thread. About men's and women's houses and men's "nothing box". Maybe Mrs. Hold has a nothing box too? I don't know...I'm reaching here.

What struck me about your post was that Mrs. Hold gave you some valuable info but it depressed you. She was letting you know something about her needs. She felt bad because she overspent at the team dinner. If you'd felt badly, a hug would have made you feel better. But that's not what Mrs. Hold needed.

What do you think she would have needed and could you have given that to her, putting your own idea for what you needed on hold (no pun intended)?

I'm not sure I would have wanted a hug in that situation either. To me, a hug would have been equivalent of my husband "minimizing" me...like what he does when if he'd said "well the money's spent so there's nothing you can do about it."

Perhaps you could have validated that she felt badly about it and asked her if a hug would help?

ETA: I am TERRIBLE about validating my husband's feelings and I see the damage it does. So I'm sensitive to it. The fact that I could see that here means maybe something is getting through my thick head. Where's the pat-yourself-on-the-back emoticon when you need it?

I know she doesn't want hugs when she is upset. I didn't expect her to accept the hug. What she wanted was to talk it through. Which I did.

I am not depressed because she refused the hug. I was already depressed. The story about the hugs was meant to illustrate that my wife doesn't want hugs for herself. Which helps explain why she is not able to offer me hugs when I need them. It is my attempt to convince myself that she is not rejecting me when she rejects my request for a hug. She is rejecting the hug.

Ok, I see what you are saying.

What does your wife say when you clearly state your need though? You obviously both have different love languages. You need hugs and there's nothing wrong with that and I also think there's nothing wrong with stating that (again) thoughtfully to Mrs. Hold in a calm moment...not at the moment you are desperately needing a hug!

She says it is very hard for her. And harder still when I am so withdrawn.

She doesn't find me attractive when I am depressed and needy. Understandable. That makes it even harder for her to offer a hug. I cannot imagine using POJA and brainstorming a way for her to be enthusiastic about giving me a hug when I need one. There aren't any circumstances under which she would be enthusiastic about giving me a hug because I am depressed.

She feels I am a weak person and should be able to overcome the depression on my own. She doesn't want me coming to her with my depression. And at this point, I no longer come to her in the hopes she will help me deal with it. I just notify her of the existence of the depression so she is aware of its presence.

I read what thinkin said on her thread today. That she feels it is possible for her to inspire someone else to love her without her having sex with them. That would not be possible with me. If she asked me to wait until we were married to have sex, I would decline to get married. Maybe that makes me a renter. But if Mrs. Hold says "come back to me when you have overcome the depression", I am much more likely to retreat into distraction (tv, video games, staring at the wall) than to overcome the depression in the hopes of connecting to Mrs. Hold.

"The story about the hugs was meant to illustrate that my wife doesn't want hugs for herself. Which helps explain why she is not able to offer me hugs when I need them."

This really struck me. Because this happens with H and I and used to happen even more. He doesn't purposely (I don't think) withhold sex/affection from me because he doesn't care about me. He just doesn't need it so he doesn't think about it. I don't purposely (I have at times) right now withhold housework from him because I don't care about him. I just don't like it and it isn't a big deal to me, so I don't always think about it - I forget that there are wet clothes in the washer or that I forgot to scrub that caked on casserole pan....again.

I can see where MB truly applied compensates for this because I don't think in terms of giving him what I would need, but what he would need. Unfortunately, that is a lot harder to really do than it seems for some of us learning-disabled ones like me. And I am impatient and "instant fix" by nature, so putting off my own needs while meeting his without seeing any "return" is not something I seem to be able to do for long. I am ashamed to say that, but it is what it is. It's funny, if I had overspent (which used to be a problem of mine), talking it through would have made me crazy. Cause I don't like to talk too much about blowing it But your wife sounds a little more like my DH - he really likes to process things fully. It's good for me to have him though because sometimes things NEED to be processed fully.

Depression sucks, so go to Hawaii. At least then it's a TROPICAL depression - ha! I made that up myself.

Still massively depressed. Weekend was good time with the kids. Conversations with Mrs. Hold reinforce that, despite her having crayons of many beuatiful colors in her crayon box, she just doesn't have a yellow one.

That is only fair, as I don't have the blue crayon she yearns for in my crayon box either.