My husband doesn't have the yellow crayon either, Hold.

I love the way you write.

Even when it's sad.

Hold, any chance the two of you can use your yellow and her blue and be happy with green?

Theoretically? Yes. I could be far more successful at work. She would find my increased income attractive. She would provide more sex. I could afford more Viagra. Win - win.

Is that going to happen? No way.

How are you doing today, Hold?

I am relatively OK. Yesterday afternoon I managed to rouse myself. We had a religious event last night and another tonight with groups of people I enjoy. Helps get me out of my funk. So I was somewhat productive yesterday afternoon and this morning. Perhaps I am turning the corner on this particular descent.

Thanks so much for asking. I know there are people here who care about me. Even if they are at a loss for what to say that might help.

Hold, could you please look at the list below and maybe give them a number, between 1 and 10 (1 not intimate at all, 10 being totally intimate)?


Sexual Intimacy


Emotional Intimacy

Intellectual Intimacy
(Closeness in the world)

Aesthetic Intimacy
(Sharing experiences of beauty)

Creative Intimacy
(Sharing in acts of creating together)

Recreational Intimacy
(Relating in experiences of fun and play)

Work Intimacy
(The closeness of sharing common tasks)

Crisis Intimacy
(Closeness in coping with problems and pain)

Conflict Intimacy
(Facing and struggling with differences)

Commitment Intimacy
(Mutuality derived from common self-investment)

Spiritual Intimacy
(The we-ness in sharing ultimate concerns)

Communication Intimacy
(The source of all types of true intimacy)

Thank you,

LA

*nod*

Where is your God? You're Jewish, right? (which reminds me of the tee-shirt: I'm not a Jew. I'm Jew-ish. Which I find hilarious given all the I'm-not-THAT-Catholic rhetoric I've heard...or said)

So...do you think that leaning into instead of away from God might help you today?

What are you going to do?

Are you are asking me to describe how important each of those is to me, or how well I feel Mrs. Hold and I relate in these areas? I guess I will provide both.

Sexual Intimacy
Importance 10, Implementation 1


Emotional Intimacy
Importance 8, Implementation 8

Intellectual Intimacy (Closeness in the world)
Importance 6, Implementation 7

Aesthetic Intimacy (Sharing experiences of beauty)
Importance 4, Implementation 4

Creative Intimacy (Sharing in acts of creating together)
Importance 4, Implementation 2
Well, except as involves our kids, which I would rate as
Importance 10 and Implementation 9.

Recreational Intimacy (Relating in experiences of fun and play)
Importance 5, Implementation 5

Work Intimacy (The closeness of sharing common tasks)
Importance 3, Implementation 1

Crisis Intimacy (Closeness in coping with problems and pain)
Importance 5, Implementation 2

Conflict Intimacy (Facing and struggling with differences)
Importance 8, Implementation 2

Commitment Intimacy (Mutuality derived from common self-investment)
Importance 7, Implementation 5

Spiritual Intimacy (The we-ness in sharing ultimate concerns)
Importance 5, Implementation 3

Communication Intimacy (The source of all types of true intimacy)
Importance 8, Implementation 1

Note that Communication implementation is where we are today, when we share very little. In the past I was much more open. I feel Mrs. Hold has never been very open, but in her defense I think she is as closed with herself and other people as she is with me.

Her openness has nothing at all to do with yours, hold.

Where is my God? Darned if I know. I got more involved with my synagogue over the past year. Go to services more often than I used to. But I still feel isolated. Every year during Kol Nidre (prayer asking to be released from insincere vows) I pray that God will help me get my head out of my hind quarters. Yet to occur.

Thank you, Hold.

I left out "rate how intimate you feel in each area with MrsHold today"...a big bunch to leave out. I know.

I'm spacey today.

Think you could rate what you remember while courting MrsHold, and then after marriage (in first five years), and now?

One number, your take, your POV.

LA

Sometimes one must bring ones own prybar. I think if you can't bring your own, God will send reinforcements. *snaps gloves, readies for cranial-rectal inversion*

You know all this, though. That's what saddens me about you, hold. That you know what you do that is wrong, and you choose to do it anyway. That you choose it BECAUSE you know it is wrong, and you do it out of punishment.

I'm all about consequences.

I can't back punishments, not when doled out by laymen.

I can DO them, errantly, but support them intellectually or spiritually? No.

My internal ratings before, early and now?

Sexual Intimacy
7, 3, 1

Emotional Intimacy
8, 8, 8

Intellectual Intimacy
7, 7, 7

Aesthetic Intimacy
4, 4, 4

Creative Intimacy
3, 3, 2

Recreational Intimacy
8, 6, 1

Work Intimacy
3, 2, 1

Crisis Intimacy
2, 2, 1

Conflict Intimacy
5, 4, 2

Commitment Intimacy
9, 8, 5

Spiritual Intimacy
6, 5, 3

Communication Intimacy
8, 6, 1

Recreational Intimacy (Companionship) can hit four or more of the intimacies by accident.



I'm wondering if you would choose to ask MrsHold for 10 hours of UA a week...where you plan on you both seeing something new, doing something new, playing together?

Not to work on your marriage or to get SF or to fix that hole in you...just because you can.

And you can.

It's a choice...think up four things to do in one week together...anything from driving to an unseen neighborhood, parking and taking a walk together...to going to an archery range. Only thing--you aren't allowed for one second to talk yourself out of, talk yourself down, or criticize any part of the plan.

Not before, during or after.

And plan to go ahead and do the four things even if MrsHold says no...ask for her to offer up four things each week for you guys to do together.

Use the resentment to get back at her...in ways of getting back to her.

See if you can trick yourself into having an interesting Spring...because the video games will be there next winter. They wait for ya.

LA

Hmmm. I am not interested in getting into fights over how much it costs to do the things she wants to do. And I can't tolerate the contact if it doesn't regularly (not always but frequently) lead to sex. We stopped doing recreation from 2 main points. It never ended in SF. And the things she wants to do cost too much. I would rather stay in misery than go back to when we used to have date nights. That was worse. Spending time with her makes me want sex more. Why the heck do you think I avoid her? Doing things with her "not to get SF" doesn't help me feel better. I end up feeling worse. I may be miserable playing video games by myself. But I am not as frantically dysfunctional as when we spend time together without having sex.

I guess it can't hurt to propose things that are free or nearly free. Then again, we are in synchro meet and AAU basketball season. Our weekends are spoken for until the end of June. Am I prepared to cut back on kid commitments to make time for my marriage? No way. But if we find some Saturday nights when we get back home early enough, maybe we can find some "concerts on the green" to go to without the kids. I predict Mrs. Hold will politely decline. But I will ask.

Just noticed you said 4 per WEEK! I first read that to be month. One per week. 4 things in one week? Not possible. We don't have 4 "slots". I generally don't get home until 8 or 9 at night. Closer to 10 when D13 has synchro practice until 9:30. So weeknights are out. We are lucky to have 1 or 2 slots per weekend max. And none when one or the other kid has an out of town meet or tournament.

And I can't tolerate the contact if it doesn't regularly (not always but frequently) lead to sex. We stopped doing recreation from 2 main points

HOLD, you are getting bolder and more assertive in expressing your feelings to MRS HOLD. I bet you can find a good way to tell her this too!

Hold, at my house we were doing the one-income thing for 9 months, and I can tell you there's nothing more of a buzz kill to start brainstorming what we'd like to do, and come up with nothing, because everything was "too expensive." It felt like that power and control thing rearing it's ugly head again, yuck! When we shifted from that all-or-nothing thinking, and gave ourselves a reasonable amount to work with, even like $30, there were lots of things we came up with, and then when it was something free, it was a bonus, something we decided together, not something one was pushing on the other.

In the last year or so I've made a few friends similar to your wife, for whatever reason just don't buy into the "everyone's got to work" thing like the rest of us do. They complain that their Hs don't give them money for one thing or another, and to me the answer would be so obvious, that's what a job is for, so you have enough resources to go around. Or like, if they cooked dinner instead of getting take-out, there would be another $20/day easily. So sometimes we meet for coffee instead of lunch, or at one of our houses, or go for a walk at the park. We're still able to do fun stuff, and it doens't feel like we're doing it "on the cheap."

Crazy, aren't I?



LA

NED
I would be happy to give my wife a dollar amount to plan events. I am not optimistic that she will be enthusiastic about anything. But I am happy to offer her what little we have available. We have over $40,000 of credit card debt on top of a big mortgage so it truly isn't much.

She occassionally goes walking with a couple of her female friends at a nearby park. I have offered to walk with her on the weekends. She always turns me down. I can ask again. At this point I need the exercise more than she does.

As for the control issue, I realize the "daddy thing" kills romance. But if you ask me whether I would give up financial control to provide more opportunities for RC, no way. We are too deep in the hole. I don't trust myself to keep things manageable once I let go of the off switch.

LA
Not crazy. You are proposing exactly what Dr. Harley requires before he accepts new clients. A commitment to spend 15 hours per week of UA time. I am unwilling to invest that much time. So I don't expect my marriage to improve.

We tried spending more time together in the past. Did not improve our marriage. Just made me more frustrated, bitter and resentful. She was getting more of her needs met and my #1 need was neglected.

I know it is POSSIBLE that Mrs. Hold might react differently now. But I am not interested in testing that possibility at this time. When we get closer to the kids leaving, I expect I will feel differently about spending time with Mrs. Hold. Because at that point I won't mind becoming even more resentful. Because that might give me the motivation I need to leave.

As I have said many times before, staying together for the next 5 years is more important to me than my happiness or than trying to repair our marriage. I know I am the one here at MB. And we typically encourage the person here to "go first". I won't do that at this time. Maybe years from now. But for the moment, either she goes first or I play video games. Even if that pretty much assures that I will remain miserable. Because it also assures I will remain married.

Remember, when I joked Monday about "not getting it", Mrs. Hold started by saying that I am stuck with her forever. She apparently has no intention of leaving. That is how I want it to remain.