Well to update you on the budget talk ...... didn't go very well.

Came home he was here great ! I was in a great mood started making dinner. We have been struggling to figure out where to come up with a $2,000.00 + tax bill thats coming due very soon. I e-mailed him some stuff earlier in the day about how to file an ext etc. He responded back think I got it covered. I asked how didn't respond back.

So any how while I was making him dinner I mentioned he didn't tell me how we were going to cover the tax bill. He jokinly said it's on a need to know basis & you do not need to know.
( making fun of one of my needs I answered on the HNHN or LB I do not remember which ) I calmy in even tone tone said that is not funny. He proceeded to storm out of the house & tell me I have no f**** sense of humor.

So any way after him calming down & eating dinner we start the budget.

His attitude was what do I need this for I know exactly where our money is going. Then most of the time was as usual you do the paper work while I text my friends.

So I filled out the FN calmy no fussing at him no DJ's trying not to do any LB's ( I did make 2 copies btw ) seen I/we were over spending cut down some of this & that was neg & seen I was still over.

I couldn't figure out how to cut back more so he puts on his holier than thou attitude tells me the way he has been able to keep us in the black before because of my spending habits is that he has been hiding money from me. Around $20.00 to $25.00
a week.For several years.

( in the mean time I found a X error ) I'm in budget now

Not awhole lot mind you but enough to cover my overages. Or when months are bad since we are both in sales & work partially off commission.

He proceeds to throw down $1200.00 to 2,000.00 in cash in front of me. Berating me the whole time he has to do this.
Because of me & my spending habits.

I calmly asked a few questions & tell him how I feel. That the money has nothing to do with this. It's the fact he hid it & did not share that he was putting money back for xyz I believe a motorcycle was in there somewhere.

Background this is not the 1st time he has done this. This the 3rd time in less than a year. Aug co-signing a $12,000.00 car loan for D finding out by the payment book coming in mail, Feb drained a savings account to move out found by statement coming in the mail.

So any how he leaves in a huff ..... I realize how grateful I am because this tax bill is a major worry off my mind.

So sleep on it call him this morning & 1st thing I did was thank him by saving our butts again. I explained to him again it was not the money or that he was saving for a Motorcyle. It was he did not share this with me. After him justifing himself more & me using put yourself in my shoes how would you feel? calling him a selfish SOB I hung up.

So after work tonight I went down to his job to talk. I explained to him that my feelings have not changed nor are they going to. And he isn't changing how he feels so we need to move past this.

He tells me I never get over anything & he is done & he wants out.

So at this moment I am in agreement with him.If he cannot put himself in my shoes & understand what I am feeling then I do not want him. He tells me he will never be the man I want him to be maybe he is right.

I need to move on & find someone else.

8th, you might want to slow things down with yourself: don't make major decisions in your life when you are angry and in emotional turmoil. I know this the hard way: my w made major decisions when she was in the heat of emotional turmoil last year and now I have to deal with re-building our marriage on my own for now.

Re your budget talk. Sorry to hear that it didn't go well. What I learned is that budget is simply another thing that you as a couple must have agreement on and it must be thoughtful (POJA). There's gotta be a way for you to talk respectfully with your h about that. As in "what would it take to come up with something that we're both happy with--that fills your needs and mine?" I learned that budget talks by agreement can be one of the most thoughtful things you can do as a couple.

I mean really 8th, my w claimed that budget was a major major issue and in one one-hour coffee date two weeks ago we came up with a thoughtful solution. Not saying we don't have other major issues and not saying this actually was a major major issue for my w (could be just a smokescreen)...but this is a practical matter that is so solvable.

I think what my w liked most of all was that I made sure that she knew that if we stay married, this is how I'd like our budget issues to be solved: by monthly agreement, monitoring, and checkup for EVERY aspect of saving and spending. We don't make a spending decision without following the month's agreement and don't change it unless we've agreed. Every dollar is assigned a % category. If we overspend in a category, we have an agreement to automatically make up for it the next month by working more, selling things, or cutting back on another category. That way, no lingering upset over an overspent category.

(We had a wonderful second budget-coffee "date" where we talked 80% about other fun things and then a bit about w's actual expenses in the budget categories we came up with last time and then some on retirement planning. Qualified for some decent UA time. Afterwards, we shopped for w's groceries together and had such a fun time that we didn't finish talking about other fun things and w on her own said we'll talk more about it next week over coffee, when next week's coffee "date" had not yet even been officially sanctioned by our MC, which last week w definitely wanted for this week's coffee date.

The point is that just talking about anything and resolving anything is just plain good for us right now and maybe good for you too. It didn't matter that it was initially about budget--it could have been talking about w's job or my job or some recent misadventures of w's parents or the effect of dietary changes on our bodies...anything but our relationship.)

It sounds like you have a lot of anger at your h. Is there a way you can deal with it BEFORE talking to him about matters? Like, going out and running or exercising or something to center yourself so that no matter what smarting remarks he makes to you, you can handle it without your own outbursts. When it happens and you can't handle it consider just saying "I can't respond well right now and need some time to think" and walk away. I don't get angry, but I did do the latter once or twice after my w d-filed last year. Works for me.

Can you just listen to him, without blowing up? But of course get away if he's disrespectful to you and say that it hurts you when he does that. More agreement with him and less clashing. So when he says "You never X ..." or "You always Y" you might say "I can see where it seems like that to you, RIGHT NOW. It seems like people don't ALWAYS do or not do something, but I can see where it seems like that to you, RIGHT NOW." Even when he says when he wants out, you could say something like "yeah, we're having real trouble with some of these issues, so I can see where you feel like that, RIGHT NOW." The reason I put the RIGHT NOW in caps is that your h will get the idea that it is open for change and not permanent.

Please take everything I say with a grain of salt as I'm not a vet here and have not solved my marital issues yet. I'm just reporting on minor things that have worked well for me in a small way towards saving our marriage. As they say on TV ads: results may vary.

I do not know what to say all I know is I'm done for RIGHT NOW ! I'm spent I do not see us getting our crap together.
MB sounds great in theory but I can't keep doing this.

We cannot talk about anything anymore without arguing or something.

We do not have anything in common anymore. He leads his life & I lead mine & thats the way he wants it.

I do not know if were in conflict or withdrawl it changes from day to day.

Yeah , 1st appt with MC she picked up on the anger right away.
That doesn't seem to be helping either btw.

I do not know how to get over my anger. I could maybe gone on to my gonna make it ways. If he would of even said he was sorry.

But that word did not come out his mouth. Over several issues in the last year or so.

Sorry for my funk but I have no hope left. I am done.

Do like your right now suggestions! Maybe some day when we are speaking I will get to use it.

Something that is really helping me get a handle on anger is the way Dr. Willard Harley refers to angry outbursts as "Using anger to punish your spouse." He insists on using that word "punish."

Do you feel like you would like to punish your spouse?

Anger isn't something we "get over" as much as it is something that we choose not to feed or hold onto.

Markos brought up the idea of punishment. I think it's a really good thing to think about. Because I often believe that I deserve punishment, and that I must punish myself. And if I act this way towards myself, you better believe that I act that way toward others. And acting that way toward others makes me into a person that I really dislike, which makes me want to punish myself more, and the cycle continues.

It used to be that when I had a negative emotion I would punish myself. Same with other people. If they were experiencing or expressing negative emotions I would punish them.

It's not my job to punish. It's not my job to be right. It is my job to be compassionate with myself, take care of myself, and be compassionate to others, especially when the negative emotions fly.

Just something to think about. I know how much it sucks to have an attitude of hopelessness. You can choose a different attitude though. Even if it is just for a day. And you can wait until tomorrow if you want too

Thanks a lot ...... Think u put a smile on my face

That hasn't been there for the last couple of days.

Marcos .... you are so right I do feel like punishing him for every little slight inconsideration. Most thinking these days is to get even so he will know how it feels. ( Have been trying to quell this urge for several weeks now knowing 2 wrongs do not make a right )

If someone would of told me 2 months ago I was angry & bitter towards him I would of told them they were off their rocker but until it was brought to my attention by our MC I ignored it.

I do not know how to deal with it. He sees it , our D sees it but I ignore it. ( I am trying to get some insight but so far it's not working out to well )

He says I will not ever get past my resentment towards him. And thats why he doesn't see us working out.

He says I tell him I love him but the way I act towards him is I hate him.

Maybe he is right & I will never be able to get past it.

Tomorrow is a new day maybe I will feel differently then.

I'm trying to bring my H out of withdrawl these are the steps I think I am suppose to be following but not sure. Please correct me if I am wrong or there are others that need to be followed.

1: UA time ( trying but he's not willing at this point except for fits & starts hasn't been ending well )
2: No LB's ( no AO's & DJ's )
3: meeting top EN's
4: SF if willing

Ok I feel like I'm missing the mark .... please provide insight. Because I know I'm missing something just don't know what.

Thanks for the help !

Hi 8th,

I have done this recently, so I think I can assist you:

You work on eliminating LBs and work on meeting ENs the way you outlined in your post; however, understand that UA time with a withdrawn spouse may not be possible. In fact, a Withdrawn spouse may resist your attempts to meet their ENs.

Keep trying anyway.

But we may be putting the cart before the horse here. How do you know your spouse is in Withdrawl?

Are you two still separated? Sorry if I missed an update on that situation.

Hey 8th, can you ask the mods to combine this thread with you first one where you originally describe your situation?

My H said this same sort of thing to me...

My H said the same thing to me in early March. We have a much different marriage today - just 7 weeks later..

Here's where he said these things which were quite similar to what your H said to you:

*Why didn't you try this earlier?

*You resent me.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2344855&page=6

Expectations are premeditated resentments. Resentment is like wishing the other person would die but taking the poison yourself. Resentment is not a feeling. It is a choice. You can choose differently.

Like Chris, my husband was in withdrawl and very "down" about the prospects of our relationship. After a few weeks of me "being nice" to him as he put it, he was still feeling skeptical. And honestly, I didn't blame him. We have been through this before. I just didn't have MB tools then. Being more open to SF has brought us together a lot.

And I have not talkd to my husband at ALL about MB. I have not tried to educate him on the principles of the program. Instead, I have argued with all the folks here and done my best to learn aboutbthem, accept them, and practice them slowly but surely as I go about living my life. i think NOT making a big deal about MB has gone a long way in helping me on my journey. When/if the time is right, I will ask my husband to also learn, study, practice MB. But for now, I'm just patiently doing my part to help him feel connected to me. Once he's connected, I'll up the ante.

Hey 8th! Glad you didn't give up. I think you're still separated, right? But not d-filed?

My experience with UA time was very similar. The problem is that when they don't feel love for you they don't want to be with you other than what's "required." They don't realize that being with you might start to bring them back to feeling love for you. My w refused any Convo/Walking time that wasn't part of the exchange with our son until the MC enforced UA time. Sure, we still talked for 45 minutes to an hour and spent "time" together, but it was always rushed or sometimes interrupted by our son.

Steve Harley's experience has been similar: when you, personally, attempt to negotiate UA time, it might fail. But if a neutral, reasonable third party suggests it, such as an MC, the pill is easier to swallow because no one wants to appear unreasonable in public.

And also try small doses at first. Our MC knows that my w would have freaked if she pushed the 15 hours thing, so right now it is a measly 1 hour a week of UA time (we've done this for a month). MC plans on increasing this slowly and adding RC, but she's not tracking things too carefully. At the same time I'm being carefully not trying to push it myself.

As far as 2 that's purely you. Yes, your h may not see the new you, but so what. As far as 3, just do what you can and what your h allows, which may not be much as it was in my case. I used to hug my w upon greeting/parting, but stopped that when she complained she wanted to control that...not that important to me right now and those feelings in her might return.

Have you asked your h to do the ENQ? That might be a good ice breaker. At the very least, you can identify some needs that you h will allow you to meet now.

If your h is not emotionally close, SF might be hard to score. Although guys are different and don't need the emotional closeness as much and it may create the emotional closeness. Can't hurt to explicitly make your needs known. For me, SF is a far far away goal.

That sounds like a pretty good list. As far as UA time - squeeze it in as well as you can. You may not be able to get your spouse to agree to UA time (especially 15-20 hours) right off the bat. Do your best to make it possible and above all do everything you can to make it pleasant! If the time is enjoyable he will want more of it! Don't talk about the relationship or where you're headed - do things that you enjoyed while you were courting.

Absolutely remove LB and meet EN. However, focus on the reason for doing them. Don't do them to coax your spouse out of withdrawal (he may not come out) Rather focus on them because they are the right thing to do. Mark1952 explained it well in another post:



(the full post is in Think's thread and is awesome.) Meet his ENs and remove LBs because it is something you need to learn to do no matter what. Don't do them with the expectation of a result. As others have said in your other thread (you should combine them by the way) Expectations are premeditated Resentments. Do 2 & 3 because you want to show love to your husband, not because you expect him to reciprocate.

5th on your list should be Patience. If you look at Markos's thread you'll see that coaxing a spouse out of withdrawal takes time and patience and focusing on YOURSELF and your actions, rather than on your spouse and their actions. I was never in withdrawal, but it took my DH the first 2 years of our marriage to get me to open up to him in the intimate way he needed. Two very patient years of him just doing what he needed to do and eventually I opened up more.

Remember: after withdrawal comes conflict before you get to intimacy.

ok typed 2 really long posts tonight & for some reason have lost them both. Giving it up for the nite will respond tomorrow. Give you all the nitty gritty details so you can get a full picture of what I am up against.

Always best for me to type my long ones in word and just copy and paste

Thank you for the advice on moving the thread I�m not a very patient person. Didn�t want to get lost in the many many pages of threads.


My H & I are still separated. Going on 2 � months now.


The reason I say he is in withdrawl is several reasons please correct me if I am wrong about assuming this is the stage he is in.

Not returning or acknowledging texts or e-mails
Not returning phone calls
Telling me he will call me back but never does & then gets mad because I didn�t call him back. (This is all the same day/same phone convo)
One day he�s positive, next several days very negative
Conversation is very forced unless it is about Our D, His Job,Our Finances
Anything other than these subjects it�s like pulling teeth to get him to talk .... All one word answers. Or if I do get him into a convo it typically ends in a argument. That I have to remind myself it his taker talking & bite my tongue.
Almost no UA time .... phone calls, texting , other persons interefere & he thinks that it still counts
Little things he still did for me when he 1st left he has stopped doing
General feeling he is slipping away more everyday & I can�t stop it.
Almost like he is preparing for the D but hasn�t taken steps to file.


He has taken both LB & HNHN quiz�s these are his answers & what I am doing to meet them please correct me if I am taking the wrong approach:

LB quiz

SD 3 trying to catch myself as much as possible no matter how much I have to bite my tongue

DJ 4 " see above "

AO 2 have't done this since reading LB ( also started reading Dance of Anger so far a little over my head may need some explaining lol)

DH 1 Sad to say I'm a open book now & it seems to be making things worse than better

AB 5 Didn't state exactly what so anything he has complained about in the past I try not doing

IB 6 trying not to but sometimes catch myself doing it

HNHN

A 1 trying as best as I can when he will let me

SF 2 " see above "

Convo 3 see #5 & 6 above

RC 9 suggesting so far not biting .... hoping it will be better with lake season upon us

H & O 4 see above

AAS 5 trying to meet have lost 27lbs since 01/04/10 ~ wearing make up again

FS 8 Trying --- registering for Dave Ramsey Seminar he says he will attend with me

DS 10 Not doing anything different than when he lived here. Still buying his groceries, still baking goodies for him, trying to make sure he is eating somewhat healthy.

FC 7 meeting

Amiration 6 someone needs to give me some examples .... don't know for sure if it is what I think it is


One of his biggest problems with me is someone ,something upsets me, annoys me, hurts my feelings. I'm like a turtle I hide in my shell it's like prying my mouth open to talk. You can ask me what's wrong till you are blue in the face I may or may not tell you. Usually I'm thinking I'm being a baby, it doesn't matter, he or she didn't mean it. My feelings get hurt very easily. I do not want anyone mad at me so I do not say anything. I'm really bad about this with my H. We have a fight & I will not speak to him for hours/ days just depends on how bad the fight was. Once I'm over whatever upset me I act like nothing is wrong & go on my merry way. The problems come in when he is mad at me for ignoring him for days/hours & he doesn't get over it o he finally has let that episode go. Then magic 6months later whatever has upset me in the last 6 months/ years comes out in a AO. Don't know how to fix this I have been this way ever since I can remember. I'm sure it was learned trait in my family.

Vibrissa mentioned doing the things we use to do when we were dating. Well we never had a normal dating relationship. No romance, no sweeping me off my feet etc etc. For you to understand what I�m up against I need to give you some background info.

Please bare with me while I ramble & explain!

Also Bubbles I am a real living breathing person in the state of Misery so sorry no mod posting this. My soap opera my life

We became friends in 8th grade when his family moved to my hometown. His family owned a business where they didn�t live in one place very long. (Moved every 1yr or 2yrs)

So anyway we hung out in a mutual group of friends. One night after hanging out with the group we were left by ourselves for a good length of time & one thing lead to another.

I became pregnant I will do the math for you we were 14yrs old. (I will not get into it on here why I would give myself to a 14yr old boy & leave it at that) He moved away shortly after that night didn�t know where he moved to. Yes, I did live with all of the shame, embarrassment all by myself & I survived. I had our D on 07/13/87 with the support of my mom (Couldn�t of done it without her )

So I will fast forward to 10th grade. He moved back into town & came back to our HS. Decided he didn�t like moving around switching schools so his parents let him move back with a family member & live with them.

We started talking again , as convo�s progressed he started asking questions & put 2 & 2 together. And I told him the truth.

He started coming over to see our D & one thing led to another. convo & sex that is what we did. During this time we became best friends. We did not go anywhere, we did not do anything. During this time he also had a GF. If we seen each other outside of my place we acted as if nothing was going on.

Ok I know some are thinking where in the world was their parents for all of this to take place !!!! Let me just say both sides of our family puts the D in dysfunctional. And I was already on my own when this was taking place.

My mother did the best she could with struggling to raise 3 girls by herself & no support from our father. That she divorced when I was 3.

She has apologized for the mistakes she made with us 3 girls. And she has more than made up for her mistakes by being a outstanding grandmother to her 5 grandchildren.

So anyway back & forth he went between me & his GF. I was the other woman/girl. And if I am going to be totally honest I was a prostitute without getting paid for it. He was aware of my behavior with other guys & he told me that is why he wouldn�t break it off with the other girl.

Finally gained some self respect & broke it off with him and any others. And dated a nice clean cut wuss for about a year or so. He still could not compare to my best friend I had lost. The poor guy had several strikes against him.H comes back into the picture wanting to see our D.

Says he loves me & we can be happy together & he has forgiven me for the other guys.

We were married in 1992
We were very happy except for the sex & his reminding me on a regular basis of what I formerly was. I was not honest how I felt , I wouldn�t discuss the subject of sex. If he would ask I would brush him off. I was not comfortable telling him what I liked. I was ashamed to tell him because good girls did not do that. I was not that girl anymore. I had built a new life, a new persona I was a upstanding mother now. I was not that person anymore. (for those that are wondering , no I never did enjoy sex with him or those other escapades either ) I wanted him to want me for me not what I could give him sexually.

This went on for 10 + years & then finally in a AO I told him how awful the sex was. It did get better sexually but I still did not have any sex drive. Sex was a chore , a pain in the butt , something to do to keep him from griping.

This went on until our D graduated HS & moved out. We started drifting further & further apart until 02/13/10 he left. I kept telling myself this is a rough patch, It will get better, we aren�t kids anymore couples do not STAY IN LOVE. He�s going thru a change of life.

Well I didn�t get a clue until he left & still for a couple of weeks after I still didn�t get it.

I found Dr H�s books got a clue & realized all of the damage I have done.

Thank you for being patient & reading my rambling. Hope I atleast entertained you with my doc drama!

I feel like I have done the majority of the damage. I do not know if I can fix it or if I should move on & learn from these mistakes.

So folks this is what I am up against. Any insight please would be helpful!

PS thanks for the tip on word didn't know if would work or not !

Just wanted to add a couple of weeks ago we went to the zoo for the day orchastrated by our D

Started off rocky but 18 straight hours of UA time.I was thinking if I could have 90 straight days of this I would be in love with him again.

I told him exactly that trying to encourage UA time & it almost feels like he has pulled farther away since that morning / evening sf.