Help I need a plan !!!

I will state just the facts if more info is needed I will provide.

Me - 38
H - 38
M 17yrs
Been Together as friends or otherwise since 8th grade
1 child 22

committed every LB stated
Didn't know what my needs were much less his
seperated 02/13/10
Started MC 02/19/10
committed DJ by demanding he read HNHN (Thankfully b4 I read LB so I can plead ignorance

So what I am needing is a plan of action. He has stated to our mc he is on the fence. Rewind a little about once or twice year for the last 10yrs about every 6m he would say he wasn't happy with our SL we would try for a little bit & it would go right back to the way before. I don't know if I was really paying attention or if I was ignoring the problem hoping it would get better & I was just one those that did not like sex I could do without. So ff 01/01/10 he tells me he is not happy & things have got to change or he's leaving. I have really tried this past year more S,mostly because that is what I thought he wanted,but not in the areas based on in MB just found out about these this last month or so. So what I am really needing here is a plan to get him off of the fence & involved in saving our M. I have read Plan A sounds good but do not know how long I can hold on until he gets with the program. I asked him to go to a MB seminar but mostly because of $$$ involved he said no. I love him with all of my heart but I know I will lose faith & hope if he is not activily trying also. He has already stated in past conversations "why didn't I find this or do this 10yrs ago" So I know there is a little bt of resentment built up because now he sees the trying but can't trust that it is genuine or that I won't back slide when things have improved. He did do LB qz & HNHN qz but then got upset when he read my answers , pleaded not fair because hadn't read the book. So I have been really leery of asking him to do another one or even mentioning MB to him at all though I have been sucking in everything I can find on MB Website. Sorry this is so long but I need help & a plan. I have done it in the past so I know if I do this for too long without him getting it I will start resenting him for it. Just want to add I've said to him & other people on many many occasions his job is his mistress !!! So UA he does not make time for I'm begining to realise that's one of our major problems but getting him to see it is a whole different ball game. I guess that was a DJ too. I am currently trying to avoid all of them just sometimes I do not realise I'm doing them. Sorry again that this is so long but I seriously need help !

Welcome. I hope you have read the threads here on sex, because there has been a very thorough discussion. You have a lot of company with women going through the same thing. And since you are the one seeking help, you will need to take the first steps.

Oh, and I'm assuming that you have completely ruled out an affair.

I would rule out the affair. Someone made a comment on my thread that folks usually don't divorce unless they have something else to jump into (not those words, but that was the gist of it).

I don't know how true that is, because most of the divorced people I know are not remarried. But who knows what really precipitated the divorces? People probably don't publicize that part of the story.

Funny u should mention an affair ..... I believe what is called an emotional affair with a customer but did not act upon it. He was starting to get that love ~n~ feeling & he told me before it went any farther. He instisted I was having S with someone else because it wasn't with him for many years. Didn't figure out until after MC & MB I didn't want to have sex because I had lost that feeling of closeness with him. So I would have to say we both have been in withdrawl for more years than I want to admit to. At one time he was my my best friend but I can't say that anymore, we've grown to far apart. I would love to get that back.

Hope you will read thinkinitthru66's thread. The sex thing has been discussed in detail.

MB can help you get that loving feeling back, so stick with us.

Also be certain that the emotional affair is not ongoing.

I do believe the emotional afair is over. I have been doing more snooping & can't find any evidence of it. Also with econ so bad She is closing her business down so there won't be any reason for them to have contact anymore. He caught himself before he fell & I am greatful for that.
MB sounds great I just hope I can convince him before I lose hope & faith. We love each other but we are not inlove with each other.

You can start the MB program without him. Usually when one person changes, the other person has to change also. Have you read some of the threads here about sex?

Couldn't search so I just registered last night before posting. I will do more reading this weekend now that I can search the boards for adwords or certain topics. Thanks a bunch ? One last question not sharing what I'm up to wouldn.t that be a LB? Not folowing RH ? Please explain !!!

How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage
article by
Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8114_plan.html

I don't have much advice for you 8th as I'm going through a similar situation with my w (no EA though). I just want to say you have my sympathy because my w is sitting on the fence about working on the marriage or not, we're in MC, she's read both LB and HNHN, still doesn't "buy" the MB approach, and got defensive when I read my very first EN to her (O&H), saying she was O&H and I just didn't get it.

Like your h, my w believes change is not possible and she's not ready to trust me that I've changed and she's not ready to offer me opportunities to see if I've changed. I think we're close, but I don't know.

Getting him to read the books can help, but it might not if he's not motivated. I can tell you that for my situation motivation is key. You can't motivate your husband to do anything. He's gotta see for himself the value of working on your marriage. Can you somehow show him that value? That's tough as he won't believe you if he's like my w. Can others? Maybe your MC can provide the framework for your h to see value in working on things just to become a better person for your marriage or any relationship. I can tell you my MC has not yet been much help in the motivation department, but yours might be. Consider marriage coaching with Steve Harley because his specialty is motivated the unmotivated spouse.

You can and should work on yourself, of course. Eventually, you will hit a wall if your h still remains reluctant to commit to working on the marriage. He also is not likely to get motivated right away.

Can you last through the potential venting sessions from your h? Can you stand all of the revisioning on your marital history? Can you take the blame and accusations, knowing that at some point you can have a more balanced view? Can you take not having any of your emotional needs met for possibly months? I've done it for almost 4 months now. It's tough, but I think I'm better for it. It was easier when I had given up on our marriage last year and fought things legally, but then there was no hope of fixing things if I didn't work on my part.

Best wishes 8th and welcome to MB.

8thgraders,

I'll offer you some ideas for your plan.

1. Read Harley's four rules for a good marriage.

2. Read Harley's to policies: radical honesty and joint agreement.

3. Sit down and think and describe what a good marriage would be like for you. What do you want, what do you need, what do you enjoy?

4. Think about the things that you really love about your H. Make a list.


5. Sit down with your H and share with him your ideas for a good marriage and then the things you really love about him. Make sure this is not a list of things for him to do, but information for him so that he knows where you are coming from.

6. You need to decide if your antipathy toward SF is one of physcial repulsion, mental repulsion, or just not caring. This is important for you and your H to know. I will tell you this SF isn't just for having children and it isnn't just for pleasure. Men need it for emtoional bonding with their W's. Dr. Harley lists it as an EMOTIONAL need, not just a physical need which is what most women think.

I have more to say, but start with this and then learn to talk to your H side by side not across from one another. You need to understand that you happiness is dependent on his happiness. And his on yours. But, one thing you should also consider is that MOST men have a strong desire to be needed and you have been rejecting him on a very basic level.

Just thoughts I hope they help.

JL

Thank you for the link retread makes me think ur a tire guy like H ..... Ever we could be 2 peas in a pod. I keep holding on to hope. Some days are good & some days are bad. And I know a lot of it is how I handle it. He is a very critical person by nature so he DJ's a lot. I'm just of guilty of DH the he didn't ask so I'm not telling approach for ions. You know the if you don't know I'm not going to tell you approach or the didn't tell you what my expectations were so you usually fall short & I'm disappointed because you didn't do what I wanted you to do. Taking my families wants into account & ignoring his feelings .... he can't tell me what to do approach. Said in the begining I've committed every LB there is & some that's not mentioned. So I think he is really leery of my new way of acting. No guilt, no whining , no yelling just calmy talking & asking how he feels about me buying this or doing that. If he has the least bit of tone I do not like or hestitation. I do not do it. Money is my big IB I would spend money & not think to say anything till after the fact. Which is my next ???? how do I not commit a IB or LB when buying groceries if he will not come with me to shop ? You know going over on groceries or just having that cute new pair of shoes? Do I have to ask him for every little thing I buy? This is a really hard one for me because I admit I like to spend $$$$ so is it best to set an allowance so I do not have to ask for every little thing or what ? Help me on this!
I'm a very black & white type of person I get confused on the grays ......

All I can say about #6 is whoaaaa! Thank you for the ideas I will start working on it this weekend. Over the last month 1/2 I have really started taking a hard look at myself & it's been really scary knowing the dammage I have done. H hasn't been totally innocent but like they say hind sight is 20/20. He started it & I kept firing back as fast as he could if not faster & harder.Thanks for all of the welcomes it's nice to know they I'm not alone out there.

8thgraders,
You haven't come right out and said what are the big hurts in your marriage, but it sounds like finances are one of them. You should fill out your Emotional Needs Questionnaire and your Love Busters Questionnaire in order to identify your priorities at this moment, and assess how your ENs are being met or not, and what LB behavior from your husband is evaporating your love.

You need to maybe share that information with your husband in a polite way, and try to get him to fill out his ENQ and LBQ for your to understand his perspective.

When should you tell your spouse,
"We have a problem."
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8115_prob.html

Complaining Politely
http://www.articlesbase.com/dating-...tner-without-them-knowing-it-462968.html

Finances might be the place to start, by setting up a budget, and knowing how much is yours to spend each month on your things, like cosmetics, hair styling, clothes, or whatever personal needs are important to you. This is a good place to get started understanding and practicing the Policy of Joint Agreement, which is a cornerstone of Marriage Builders.

Policy of Joint Agreement
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html

Basic Concepts
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_summary.html

Thank u for your advice ..... I can't pinpoint this or what the exact problem is but finaces & sex have always been a major issue between us. He provides very well but I also have a good job working full time. We've always had joint finances either it be checking or charge or savings. I see now where POJA could of saved us a lot of heartache. Thisloks like such a innoccent website but it has loads of info I didn't even dream was out there. My only regret is I wish I would of found it sooner. It may too late but only time will tell.

Hi 8th. Budgeting is completely solvable. There are so many amazing budget programs out there. There's a free online one that I'm looking into called mint.com and they let you and your h decide each budget category and there's tracking that notifies the interested parties when a budget category is over budget, instantly. It hooks into all of your financial accounts securely so you don't have to type in anything. You buy caviar at the grocery store and if it puts you over your $100/week grocery budget, you and your h get the email right away.

The idea of "zero-based" budgeting, which I learned last week, is amazing. You meet monthly to decide and review your budget. Every dollar you earn goes into a category: taxes, other expenses, other savings. Of course each of these is made as fine-grained as you want (e.g., savings for trip to Mexico could be an explicit category, not just savings for savings sake). Every dollar you earn is assigned a job (category). Everything is zero'd out because the %s add up to 100.

Each month, you POJA all the categories you think are important. You POJA the percents of your income after categories. And you never ever make a spending decision for that month that has not been POJA'd for the previous month. If you go over budget, you make up for that category by working more the next month, spending less, selling things to make up for it, or borrowing for another category. You never let an overbudget item last more than a month. So no lingering arguments. That's what I learned and synthesized from several sites.

I've learned that for couples these monthly meetings where you POJA financial solutions can be one of the most thoughtful things you can do for a relationship.

You and your h would also have to talk about your values, translate them in terms of goals (with timetables), and then goals in terms of budget %s for each of the categories.

Separate from that, it seems like your biggest problem is still that your husband is on the fence. If you ask him what it might take to get him off the fence, you may get back a list of things, which is always good for you. But, Steve Harley said that since feelings are involved, your h may just "feel" that he doesn't want to work on the marriage and anything he provides might be weak cover stories of what he needs to get off the fence. On the other hand, he may really be in touch with his feelings and know what he needs. If he's like most people, he does not know what he needs to get rid of the "on the fence feeling" and will only know it if he starts seeing changes in you and believes them. (My w has seen a few changes in my but doesn't yet believe them and may never...so who knows.) The old Actions --> Feelings --> Beliefs thing.

In my case, my w has thrown up various smokescreens like "budget" is important before she can commit or our "values" might be different before she can commit, etc. The good thing is that the MC latched onto that as a framework to spend time outside of counseling to work on those "issues." The MC was smart enough to know that those are not the real "issues" and that we just have to spend time together outside of MC. We're starting with an hour a week and MC wants to shoot for 2-3 next week. I'd like to do the 15 hours a week that MB recommends...very soon. But this is a baby step.

So, in case you're wondering, as a result of one "date" outside of counseling (our first since d-filing), W now believes that "budget" is completely solvable and that our "values" match. But she's brought up 4-5 other issues in their place. That's OK, because it means more excuses for UA time outside of counseling. W doesn't realize the opps she's creating for me because we can discuss each issue while hiking or having coffee, etc and end up talking about more pleasant things that we used to talk about when dating.

Remember 8th, this is going to be hard on you. It's going to be hard for you take all the resentment, the feeling of hopelessness, the feeling of throwing in the towel. I'm nowhere near success so I can't say it'll all work, but I can say I'm doing everything I can to create a better marriage. Do you have physical and emotional outlets to handle the stress on yourself? Work on creating that environment for support for yourself.

ok going to try 1 more time ... 3rd time is a charm right! I had a great reply for you ever & I keep losing them. So I'm going to call it a day. I will totally respond back with a great post !

Happy Easter, Easter bunny bock bock !

Ever .... you sound like a great guy. I hope she doesn't wait to long & lifts the fog. Her parents welllll...... totally different issue ...... Good luck with that one !

I've spent some time reading your thread & read about the problems your facing.

You sound like a great father .... He is a major piece of the pie but keep in mind he is not the whole pie. So are your other children even if they are not in the same city.

Keep taking advantage of the opps showing is 10x more effective than telling your wife how much you love her &
want her back.

I keep telling myself that as long as we still love one another there is hope.

Thank you for the website we made a date for tomorrow nite to go over finances & make a budget.

I'm looking forward to seeing him but maybe not the topic of disscusion. He's always have had the power when it comes to money to make me feel inadequate so I've always have let him make all of the financial decesions even if I haven't totally agreed with them. Then resent him for it.

So I'm looking at this as a major step for him to see I am actually trying to immprove myself & our situation.

Besides if it ends in the big D atleast I'm prepared to face it financially & doing it on my own.

I can see ,he is seeing the trying but does not know if he can trust it.He is wondering if this is one of my pet projects again & throwing everything I have into it & waiting to see how long it lasts. ( yes, I do tend to do this especially with hobbies )

UA time is a major struggle for him. He has a very stressful job ( I wonder if he doesn't make it that way for himself sometimes with his personality to put it bluntly he is A hole at times & does not have a very good working relationship with others in the company ) he starts working as soon as the phone rings in the AM usually 7:00 or 8:00 & is at until 8,9,10,11 or 12 sometimes.

The few & far between vacays we have is usually consumed with being on the phone with customers or issues at the office. Mind you not the whole vacay but a good portion.

So I'm focusing right now on being a haven instead of being part of the stress. Since we do see each other 2 to 5x a week. Depending on how the previous visit was & the hrs he's working that particular day. So wish me look that I do not commit every LB under the sun & more ! I'm going to need it !

Thanks 8th. My fingers are crossed for you for your budget talk. I think any sort of contact about anything, as long as it is positive, is good. Lower expectations for the budget talk for both of you just by viewing it as two people getting to know how each other feels about money.

What worked really well for me was to start the discussion about values, to see if we're on the same page. And then translate those values to goals and then figure out budget categories and % based on goal. Example: family is a high value for me. That might translate to owning my own home in less than a year, which translates to saving 12% of my income after taxes for a home. W values independence, which might translate into her whole paycheck used for whatever she wants or a split according to our income contribution...you get the idea, right?

If you jump into the category %'s too quickly you have no guidelines about what's important and what's not.

If you see h 2-5x week, that's pretty incredible already. I see my w 3-5x week, but only one of those x's is quality conversation for more than a few minutes.

As far as making mistakes. I've made dozens from d-day onward. They are all opps for learning and none have been fatal, irreversible, or irrepairable.

You have a great attitude 8th and I think that will carry you far in this process. It also sounds like your h still loves you so you'll have less work to do--mine is the "don't know if I still do...don't know if I can get the feelings back" situation.

Well to quote you .... the don't know if I can get the feelings back ... he maybe thinking that to & just not telling. Who knows sometimes ....

One day he says something hopefull , the next saying nothing ever changes. So who knows ....

Not been a good nite. Was suppose to have a family dinner grill had a grease fire ..... he was a 1hr late didn't call until 10mins before dinner was suppose to be served. So there fore food was almost done until the grill caught on fire by trying to keep everything warm & I ruined dinner.

Texted everyone & told them to make other plans since they were inconsiderate & didn't call either.

So anyway hope you had a Happy Easter ... I'm calling it a night.

Well to update you on the budget talk ...... didn't go very well.

Came home he was here great ! I was in a great mood started making dinner. We have been struggling to figure out where to come up with a $2,000.00 + tax bill thats coming due very soon. I e-mailed him some stuff earlier in the day about how to file an ext etc. He responded back think I got it covered. I asked how didn't respond back.

So any how while I was making him dinner I mentioned he didn't tell me how we were going to cover the tax bill. He jokinly said it's on a need to know basis & you do not need to know.
( making fun of one of my needs I answered on the HNHN or LB I do not remember which ) I calmy in even tone tone said that is not funny. He proceeded to storm out of the house & tell me I have no f**** sense of humor.

So any way after him calming down & eating dinner we start the budget.

His attitude was what do I need this for I know exactly where our money is going. Then most of the time was as usual you do the paper work while I text my friends.

So I filled out the FN calmy no fussing at him no DJ's trying not to do any LB's ( I did make 2 copies btw ) seen I/we were over spending cut down some of this & that was neg & seen I was still over.

I couldn't figure out how to cut back more so he puts on his holier than thou attitude tells me the way he has been able to keep us in the black before because of my spending habits is that he has been hiding money from me. Around $20.00 to $25.00
a week.For several years.

( in the mean time I found a X error ) I'm in budget now

Not awhole lot mind you but enough to cover my overages. Or when months are bad since we are both in sales & work partially off commission.

He proceeds to throw down $1200.00 to 2,000.00 in cash in front of me. Berating me the whole time he has to do this.
Because of me & my spending habits.

I calmly asked a few questions & tell him how I feel. That the money has nothing to do with this. It's the fact he hid it & did not share that he was putting money back for xyz I believe a motorcycle was in there somewhere.

Background this is not the 1st time he has done this. This the 3rd time in less than a year. Aug co-signing a $12,000.00 car loan for D finding out by the payment book coming in mail, Feb drained a savings account to move out found by statement coming in the mail.

So any how he leaves in a huff ..... I realize how grateful I am because this tax bill is a major worry off my mind.

So sleep on it call him this morning & 1st thing I did was thank him by saving our butts again. I explained to him again it was not the money or that he was saving for a Motorcyle. It was he did not share this with me. After him justifing himself more & me using put yourself in my shoes how would you feel? calling him a selfish SOB I hung up.

So after work tonight I went down to his job to talk. I explained to him that my feelings have not changed nor are they going to. And he isn't changing how he feels so we need to move past this.

He tells me I never get over anything & he is done & he wants out.

So at this moment I am in agreement with him.If he cannot put himself in my shoes & understand what I am feeling then I do not want him. He tells me he will never be the man I want him to be maybe he is right.

I need to move on & find someone else.

8th, you might want to slow things down with yourself: don't make major decisions in your life when you are angry and in emotional turmoil. I know this the hard way: my w made major decisions when she was in the heat of emotional turmoil last year and now I have to deal with re-building our marriage on my own for now.

Re your budget talk. Sorry to hear that it didn't go well. What I learned is that budget is simply another thing that you as a couple must have agreement on and it must be thoughtful (POJA). There's gotta be a way for you to talk respectfully with your h about that. As in "what would it take to come up with something that we're both happy with--that fills your needs and mine?" I learned that budget talks by agreement can be one of the most thoughtful things you can do as a couple.

I mean really 8th, my w claimed that budget was a major major issue and in one one-hour coffee date two weeks ago we came up with a thoughtful solution. Not saying we don't have other major issues and not saying this actually was a major major issue for my w (could be just a smokescreen)...but this is a practical matter that is so solvable.

I think what my w liked most of all was that I made sure that she knew that if we stay married, this is how I'd like our budget issues to be solved: by monthly agreement, monitoring, and checkup for EVERY aspect of saving and spending. We don't make a spending decision without following the month's agreement and don't change it unless we've agreed. Every dollar is assigned a % category. If we overspend in a category, we have an agreement to automatically make up for it the next month by working more, selling things, or cutting back on another category. That way, no lingering upset over an overspent category.

(We had a wonderful second budget-coffee "date" where we talked 80% about other fun things and then a bit about w's actual expenses in the budget categories we came up with last time and then some on retirement planning. Qualified for some decent UA time. Afterwards, we shopped for w's groceries together and had such a fun time that we didn't finish talking about other fun things and w on her own said we'll talk more about it next week over coffee, when next week's coffee "date" had not yet even been officially sanctioned by our MC, which last week w definitely wanted for this week's coffee date.

The point is that just talking about anything and resolving anything is just plain good for us right now and maybe good for you too. It didn't matter that it was initially about budget--it could have been talking about w's job or my job or some recent misadventures of w's parents or the effect of dietary changes on our bodies...anything but our relationship.)

It sounds like you have a lot of anger at your h. Is there a way you can deal with it BEFORE talking to him about matters? Like, going out and running or exercising or something to center yourself so that no matter what smarting remarks he makes to you, you can handle it without your own outbursts. When it happens and you can't handle it consider just saying "I can't respond well right now and need some time to think" and walk away. I don't get angry, but I did do the latter once or twice after my w d-filed last year. Works for me.

Can you just listen to him, without blowing up? But of course get away if he's disrespectful to you and say that it hurts you when he does that. More agreement with him and less clashing. So when he says "You never X ..." or "You always Y" you might say "I can see where it seems like that to you, RIGHT NOW. It seems like people don't ALWAYS do or not do something, but I can see where it seems like that to you, RIGHT NOW." Even when he says when he wants out, you could say something like "yeah, we're having real trouble with some of these issues, so I can see where you feel like that, RIGHT NOW." The reason I put the RIGHT NOW in caps is that your h will get the idea that it is open for change and not permanent.

Please take everything I say with a grain of salt as I'm not a vet here and have not solved my marital issues yet. I'm just reporting on minor things that have worked well for me in a small way towards saving our marriage. As they say on TV ads: results may vary.

I do not know what to say all I know is I'm done for RIGHT NOW ! I'm spent I do not see us getting our crap together.
MB sounds great in theory but I can't keep doing this.

We cannot talk about anything anymore without arguing or something.

We do not have anything in common anymore. He leads his life & I lead mine & thats the way he wants it.

I do not know if were in conflict or withdrawl it changes from day to day.

Yeah , 1st appt with MC she picked up on the anger right away.
That doesn't seem to be helping either btw.

I do not know how to get over my anger. I could maybe gone on to my gonna make it ways. If he would of even said he was sorry.

But that word did not come out his mouth. Over several issues in the last year or so.

Sorry for my funk but I have no hope left. I am done.

Do like your right now suggestions! Maybe some day when we are speaking I will get to use it.

Something that is really helping me get a handle on anger is the way Dr. Willard Harley refers to angry outbursts as "Using anger to punish your spouse." He insists on using that word "punish."

Do you feel like you would like to punish your spouse?

Anger isn't something we "get over" as much as it is something that we choose not to feed or hold onto.

Markos brought up the idea of punishment. I think it's a really good thing to think about. Because I often believe that I deserve punishment, and that I must punish myself. And if I act this way towards myself, you better believe that I act that way toward others. And acting that way toward others makes me into a person that I really dislike, which makes me want to punish myself more, and the cycle continues.

It used to be that when I had a negative emotion I would punish myself. Same with other people. If they were experiencing or expressing negative emotions I would punish them.

It's not my job to punish. It's not my job to be right. It is my job to be compassionate with myself, take care of myself, and be compassionate to others, especially when the negative emotions fly.

Just something to think about. I know how much it sucks to have an attitude of hopelessness. You can choose a different attitude though. Even if it is just for a day. And you can wait until tomorrow if you want too

Thanks a lot ...... Think u put a smile on my face

That hasn't been there for the last couple of days.

Marcos .... you are so right I do feel like punishing him for every little slight inconsideration. Most thinking these days is to get even so he will know how it feels. ( Have been trying to quell this urge for several weeks now knowing 2 wrongs do not make a right )

If someone would of told me 2 months ago I was angry & bitter towards him I would of told them they were off their rocker but until it was brought to my attention by our MC I ignored it.

I do not know how to deal with it. He sees it , our D sees it but I ignore it. ( I am trying to get some insight but so far it's not working out to well )

He says I will not ever get past my resentment towards him. And thats why he doesn't see us working out.

He says I tell him I love him but the way I act towards him is I hate him.

Maybe he is right & I will never be able to get past it.

Tomorrow is a new day maybe I will feel differently then.

I'm trying to bring my H out of withdrawl these are the steps I think I am suppose to be following but not sure. Please correct me if I am wrong or there are others that need to be followed.

1: UA time ( trying but he's not willing at this point except for fits & starts hasn't been ending well )
2: No LB's ( no AO's & DJ's )
3: meeting top EN's
4: SF if willing

Ok I feel like I'm missing the mark .... please provide insight. Because I know I'm missing something just don't know what.

Thanks for the help !

Hi 8th,

I have done this recently, so I think I can assist you:

You work on eliminating LBs and work on meeting ENs the way you outlined in your post; however, understand that UA time with a withdrawn spouse may not be possible. In fact, a Withdrawn spouse may resist your attempts to meet their ENs.

Keep trying anyway.

But we may be putting the cart before the horse here. How do you know your spouse is in Withdrawl?

Are you two still separated? Sorry if I missed an update on that situation.

Hey 8th, can you ask the mods to combine this thread with you first one where you originally describe your situation?

My H said this same sort of thing to me...

My H said the same thing to me in early March. We have a much different marriage today - just 7 weeks later..

Here's where he said these things which were quite similar to what your H said to you:

*Why didn't you try this earlier?

*You resent me.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2344855&page=6

Expectations are premeditated resentments. Resentment is like wishing the other person would die but taking the poison yourself. Resentment is not a feeling. It is a choice. You can choose differently.

Like Chris, my husband was in withdrawl and very "down" about the prospects of our relationship. After a few weeks of me "being nice" to him as he put it, he was still feeling skeptical. And honestly, I didn't blame him. We have been through this before. I just didn't have MB tools then. Being more open to SF has brought us together a lot.

And I have not talkd to my husband at ALL about MB. I have not tried to educate him on the principles of the program. Instead, I have argued with all the folks here and done my best to learn aboutbthem, accept them, and practice them slowly but surely as I go about living my life. i think NOT making a big deal about MB has gone a long way in helping me on my journey. When/if the time is right, I will ask my husband to also learn, study, practice MB. But for now, I'm just patiently doing my part to help him feel connected to me. Once he's connected, I'll up the ante.

Hey 8th! Glad you didn't give up. I think you're still separated, right? But not d-filed?

My experience with UA time was very similar. The problem is that when they don't feel love for you they don't want to be with you other than what's "required." They don't realize that being with you might start to bring them back to feeling love for you. My w refused any Convo/Walking time that wasn't part of the exchange with our son until the MC enforced UA time. Sure, we still talked for 45 minutes to an hour and spent "time" together, but it was always rushed or sometimes interrupted by our son.

Steve Harley's experience has been similar: when you, personally, attempt to negotiate UA time, it might fail. But if a neutral, reasonable third party suggests it, such as an MC, the pill is easier to swallow because no one wants to appear unreasonable in public.

And also try small doses at first. Our MC knows that my w would have freaked if she pushed the 15 hours thing, so right now it is a measly 1 hour a week of UA time (we've done this for a month). MC plans on increasing this slowly and adding RC, but she's not tracking things too carefully. At the same time I'm being carefully not trying to push it myself.

As far as 2 that's purely you. Yes, your h may not see the new you, but so what. As far as 3, just do what you can and what your h allows, which may not be much as it was in my case. I used to hug my w upon greeting/parting, but stopped that when she complained she wanted to control that...not that important to me right now and those feelings in her might return.

Have you asked your h to do the ENQ? That might be a good ice breaker. At the very least, you can identify some needs that you h will allow you to meet now.

If your h is not emotionally close, SF might be hard to score. Although guys are different and don't need the emotional closeness as much and it may create the emotional closeness. Can't hurt to explicitly make your needs known. For me, SF is a far far away goal.

That sounds like a pretty good list. As far as UA time - squeeze it in as well as you can. You may not be able to get your spouse to agree to UA time (especially 15-20 hours) right off the bat. Do your best to make it possible and above all do everything you can to make it pleasant! If the time is enjoyable he will want more of it! Don't talk about the relationship or where you're headed - do things that you enjoyed while you were courting.

Absolutely remove LB and meet EN. However, focus on the reason for doing them. Don't do them to coax your spouse out of withdrawal (he may not come out) Rather focus on them because they are the right thing to do. Mark1952 explained it well in another post:



(the full post is in Think's thread and is awesome.) Meet his ENs and remove LBs because it is something you need to learn to do no matter what. Don't do them with the expectation of a result. As others have said in your other thread (you should combine them by the way) Expectations are premeditated Resentments. Do 2 & 3 because you want to show love to your husband, not because you expect him to reciprocate.

5th on your list should be Patience. If you look at Markos's thread you'll see that coaxing a spouse out of withdrawal takes time and patience and focusing on YOURSELF and your actions, rather than on your spouse and their actions. I was never in withdrawal, but it took my DH the first 2 years of our marriage to get me to open up to him in the intimate way he needed. Two very patient years of him just doing what he needed to do and eventually I opened up more.

Remember: after withdrawal comes conflict before you get to intimacy.

ok typed 2 really long posts tonight & for some reason have lost them both. Giving it up for the nite will respond tomorrow. Give you all the nitty gritty details so you can get a full picture of what I am up against.

Always best for me to type my long ones in word and just copy and paste

Thank you for the advice on moving the thread I�m not a very patient person. Didn�t want to get lost in the many many pages of threads.


My H & I are still separated. Going on 2 � months now.


The reason I say he is in withdrawl is several reasons please correct me if I am wrong about assuming this is the stage he is in.

Not returning or acknowledging texts or e-mails
Not returning phone calls
Telling me he will call me back but never does & then gets mad because I didn�t call him back. (This is all the same day/same phone convo)
One day he�s positive, next several days very negative
Conversation is very forced unless it is about Our D, His Job,Our Finances
Anything other than these subjects it�s like pulling teeth to get him to talk .... All one word answers. Or if I do get him into a convo it typically ends in a argument. That I have to remind myself it his taker talking & bite my tongue.
Almost no UA time .... phone calls, texting , other persons interefere & he thinks that it still counts
Little things he still did for me when he 1st left he has stopped doing
General feeling he is slipping away more everyday & I can�t stop it.
Almost like he is preparing for the D but hasn�t taken steps to file.


He has taken both LB & HNHN quiz�s these are his answers & what I am doing to meet them please correct me if I am taking the wrong approach:

LB quiz

SD 3 trying to catch myself as much as possible no matter how much I have to bite my tongue

DJ 4 " see above "

AO 2 have't done this since reading LB ( also started reading Dance of Anger so far a little over my head may need some explaining lol)

DH 1 Sad to say I'm a open book now & it seems to be making things worse than better

AB 5 Didn't state exactly what so anything he has complained about in the past I try not doing

IB 6 trying not to but sometimes catch myself doing it

HNHN

A 1 trying as best as I can when he will let me

SF 2 " see above "

Convo 3 see #5 & 6 above

RC 9 suggesting so far not biting .... hoping it will be better with lake season upon us

H & O 4 see above

AAS 5 trying to meet have lost 27lbs since 01/04/10 ~ wearing make up again

FS 8 Trying --- registering for Dave Ramsey Seminar he says he will attend with me

DS 10 Not doing anything different than when he lived here. Still buying his groceries, still baking goodies for him, trying to make sure he is eating somewhat healthy.

FC 7 meeting

Amiration 6 someone needs to give me some examples .... don't know for sure if it is what I think it is


One of his biggest problems with me is someone ,something upsets me, annoys me, hurts my feelings. I'm like a turtle I hide in my shell it's like prying my mouth open to talk. You can ask me what's wrong till you are blue in the face I may or may not tell you. Usually I'm thinking I'm being a baby, it doesn't matter, he or she didn't mean it. My feelings get hurt very easily. I do not want anyone mad at me so I do not say anything. I'm really bad about this with my H. We have a fight & I will not speak to him for hours/ days just depends on how bad the fight was. Once I'm over whatever upset me I act like nothing is wrong & go on my merry way. The problems come in when he is mad at me for ignoring him for days/hours & he doesn't get over it o he finally has let that episode go. Then magic 6months later whatever has upset me in the last 6 months/ years comes out in a AO. Don't know how to fix this I have been this way ever since I can remember. I'm sure it was learned trait in my family.

Vibrissa mentioned doing the things we use to do when we were dating. Well we never had a normal dating relationship. No romance, no sweeping me off my feet etc etc. For you to understand what I�m up against I need to give you some background info.

Please bare with me while I ramble & explain!

Also Bubbles I am a real living breathing person in the state of Misery so sorry no mod posting this. My soap opera my life

We became friends in 8th grade when his family moved to my hometown. His family owned a business where they didn�t live in one place very long. (Moved every 1yr or 2yrs)

So anyway we hung out in a mutual group of friends. One night after hanging out with the group we were left by ourselves for a good length of time & one thing lead to another.

I became pregnant I will do the math for you we were 14yrs old. (I will not get into it on here why I would give myself to a 14yr old boy & leave it at that) He moved away shortly after that night didn�t know where he moved to. Yes, I did live with all of the shame, embarrassment all by myself & I survived. I had our D on 07/13/87 with the support of my mom (Couldn�t of done it without her )

So I will fast forward to 10th grade. He moved back into town & came back to our HS. Decided he didn�t like moving around switching schools so his parents let him move back with a family member & live with them.

We started talking again , as convo�s progressed he started asking questions & put 2 & 2 together. And I told him the truth.

He started coming over to see our D & one thing led to another. convo & sex that is what we did. During this time we became best friends. We did not go anywhere, we did not do anything. During this time he also had a GF. If we seen each other outside of my place we acted as if nothing was going on.

Ok I know some are thinking where in the world was their parents for all of this to take place !!!! Let me just say both sides of our family puts the D in dysfunctional. And I was already on my own when this was taking place.

My mother did the best she could with struggling to raise 3 girls by herself & no support from our father. That she divorced when I was 3.

She has apologized for the mistakes she made with us 3 girls. And she has more than made up for her mistakes by being a outstanding grandmother to her 5 grandchildren.

So anyway back & forth he went between me & his GF. I was the other woman/girl. And if I am going to be totally honest I was a prostitute without getting paid for it. He was aware of my behavior with other guys & he told me that is why he wouldn�t break it off with the other girl.

Finally gained some self respect & broke it off with him and any others. And dated a nice clean cut wuss for about a year or so. He still could not compare to my best friend I had lost. The poor guy had several strikes against him.H comes back into the picture wanting to see our D.

Says he loves me & we can be happy together & he has forgiven me for the other guys.

We were married in 1992
We were very happy except for the sex & his reminding me on a regular basis of what I formerly was. I was not honest how I felt , I wouldn�t discuss the subject of sex. If he would ask I would brush him off. I was not comfortable telling him what I liked. I was ashamed to tell him because good girls did not do that. I was not that girl anymore. I had built a new life, a new persona I was a upstanding mother now. I was not that person anymore. (for those that are wondering , no I never did enjoy sex with him or those other escapades either ) I wanted him to want me for me not what I could give him sexually.

This went on for 10 + years & then finally in a AO I told him how awful the sex was. It did get better sexually but I still did not have any sex drive. Sex was a chore , a pain in the butt , something to do to keep him from griping.

This went on until our D graduated HS & moved out. We started drifting further & further apart until 02/13/10 he left. I kept telling myself this is a rough patch, It will get better, we aren�t kids anymore couples do not STAY IN LOVE. He�s going thru a change of life.

Well I didn�t get a clue until he left & still for a couple of weeks after I still didn�t get it.

I found Dr H�s books got a clue & realized all of the damage I have done.

Thank you for being patient & reading my rambling. Hope I atleast entertained you with my doc drama!

I feel like I have done the majority of the damage. I do not know if I can fix it or if I should move on & learn from these mistakes.

So folks this is what I am up against. Any insight please would be helpful!

PS thanks for the tip on word didn't know if would work or not !

Just wanted to add a couple of weeks ago we went to the zoo for the day orchastrated by our D

Started off rocky but 18 straight hours of UA time.I was thinking if I could have 90 straight days of this I would be in love with him again.

I told him exactly that trying to encourage UA time & it almost feels like he has pulled farther away since that morning / evening sf.

Sorry .... didn't mean to scare anyone off. Maybe I gave u TMI:)

Well, that was quite a story. Congratulations on finally getting married and raising your son.

Telling him sex was awful for you probably didn't make him feel good.

I'm still thinking there could be an affair. Maybe he didn't catch himself in time.

One problem I see is that you were promiscuous and don't enjoy sex. Does that mean you never enjoy it?

Also what is it that you always argue about?

How much money to you spend on non-essentials every week?

1st off to correct we have a 22yr old beautiful Daughter

to answer your questions:

Telling him the way I did about the sex was IMO
the worst thing I have ever done to us. I wish I could take it back.

No amount of apologising is going to change what I did & how it hurt him.

Yes I can enjoy sex if I am in the right state of mind & I have that bond/connection
@ that moment.

Noises, pets , phone , voices etc quickly kills the mood.

I have banished a lot out of the bedroom for this reason.
Still did not have the sex drive. Finally figured out I was missing
the connection to him a lot of the time. started paying more attention
& figured out if he puts the time in convo & A I'm able to enjoy more.

Usually a innocennt convo turns into a arguement. Examples
mostly about me wanting to buy something. Or him saying neg things about
my family, our D ,friends So I feel like I have to defend them.Tell him how I feel about a current issue or past issue
it's the guilt trip that he cannot do anything right, everything is his fault,
he's a awful husband. Twice now in the last week he has has stated he thinks I have someone waiting in the wings.
(Which I do not BTW.) All I want him for is security, his paycheck etc etc.

Example of why I feel like I have to defend : When our D setup the zoo trip, H said it was for her own selfish reasons.
She was meddling where it did not belong etc etc etc. Yes in this case I felt I had to defend our D
for trying to get us to work on our relationship.

We have really tried to not put her in the middle of trying to defend either one of us to the other. up until that nite
I have not talked to her about anything that was transpiring. That particular
nite she pried ot of me what was bothering me & I told her I was done. Him & his Job could be happy together.

So she I talked for a couple of hours & she suggested the trip.I do not feel that it was for her own
selfish reasons.

More arguments follow :


Just the other night .... met up for some UA time , Examples

Friend that is a dog trainer told me she got another puppy & I was telling him
she was nuts she already has 6+ ( the reason I say this is these are very high energy dogs
she does not see them as pets/members of her family etc they are $$$/dogs to her).
So was telling him where she found the current one that she was going to buy & how
her husband does not even know about it yet.

Immediately his response was figures she's out spending his money on something
soon as he turns his back. And I'm like WTF ???? bit my tongue --- changed subject

Next subject


Let me 1st say this I was just dreaming I know we cannot
afford a new car have no intention of buying a new car right now.

And I was telling him that I had got on one those websites
that would submit a request to your local dealers to give you a quote.
Well it turned out the guy that responded back with a quote was his nephew lol
so I was saying how in the world am I going to blow this guy off he is family.

And he just went off saying how I am the one that gets every new car & he has
never gotten the truck he has always wanted.
And if a new vehicle is going to be bought it is going to be for him. And it will
be a truck.

I have always said if you want a truck buy one but it has to be used because there
is no point spending XX,XXX on a new truck when it would sit in the drive way 90%
of the time because he drives a company truck.

I drive my car everyday long trips etc. I have several XXX,XXX miles on it.

Anyway I did not rise to his going off , I just said there is no point in arguing
about it we cannot afford either one. I will e-mail Nephew tomorrow & blow him off
like I planned to. Convo after that was teeth pulling. One word answers.

The money I spend on non essentials is anywhere from $5.00 - $100.00 a week

I try to get his ok if it is more than $20.00/$25.00 always have .... but the issue
comes in when he feels like he is giving me my way or I'm going to do it wether he likes it or not.

He says he cannot say no to me & I take advantage of it because I know he will LET ME buy anything I want
within reason.Notice I said LET ME not that he buys me anything I want.So MC says he resents me for
not being able to tell me no.Don't know about that theory but it makes sense.

He does not consider me blowing money if it is for the most part for myself or him or for us together or our parents.

If it is on house, friends,family, b-day gifts,x-mas gifts other than what I stated above it is blowing money.

Let me say X-mas gifts are a battle every year & the $$$ spent.

As far as a affair I have point blank asked him over & over again , snooped, show up @ his job at odd times cannot find evidence. But I still wonder at times myself.

Okay, so one thing you KNOW is a sore spot is money. Spending $100. a week on non-essentials is high. If you saved that money you could put a nice payment on a car or truck. And just curious why you are looking at dealers on line if you know you can't afford it?

When I'm in a saving mode, I don't even go to any stores or anywhere that I would be tempted.

I suggest you show him a big effort towards saving money. You should have a minimum of 6 months wages in savings for an emergency fund.

Are you having SF at all since you've been separated?

Hi 8th.

I see that you are mentioning budget and money again as a major issue. I can only say what worked for me.

Come to an agreement first about what your values are: things like recreation, food, family, etc. Maybe rank them to help you get an idea of important or give them weights. Then translate those values into goals--what you want to do or buy and when. Then translate those to % of total budget and simply stick to it each month. Surely your h is game to that?

Without the values or goals, there's no real rationale for spending on this vs. that.

My experience is this. My w mentioned that budget is a super important thing and she can't return to the marriage unless that's solved. I didn't know crap about budget, so I read up on because that's something I need for myself too. We discussed the budget stuff I had found at a coffee "date" and even with my severely withdrawn and unloving w (you can read my story on the threads associated with my name), we were able to mostly agree on our values, have a rough idea of goals and %s that are reasonable. And we're 9 months into a post d-filing, were in court, etc. Nasty nasty stuff before. And even she thinks now that the budget thing is solvable. That's not to say we'll stay married or will d, but at least it's possible to see where one aspect of our marriage could be solved--budget--with some reasonable discussion.

yes to the SF not as much as I would like to give thou.

friend bought a new vehicle, just was bored at work seeing what kind of awesome deal was out there that everyone is always taking about.

yes me also i cant go anywhere & tempt myself. Thats why I did it online.Thankfully we do not see nephew often to tempt me any furthur.

got my check made out for the dave ramsey finacial wizard seminar
so will be working towards the EF goal

yes EHF it is that subject again. I've been really trying to be good & not P him off about $$$. But it seems like I can't even talk to him without it turning into something else. arrghhh !

BTW EHF you talking % is really over my head. lol

Also keep in mind your W is still hanging around for a reason. I don't think she is ready to jump ship just yet. IMHO

Good for you! I'm sensing that financial stuff is a big EN for your husband. I would start making drastic changes.

At this point (if he is detached) you need to show him and not just talk.

As far as the other stuff, not speaking your truth, there is a good book called Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders, It is available here on this site or on Amazon. It would be excellent for you to read. It will teach you to be a buyer in your marriage and not just a renter.

You probably feel that you are a buyer, but you are a renter. And the reason I know that is because you have a history of non-confrontation and not speaking your truth.

You are absolutey right I do feel like I am the buyer in my M.
Funny how I'm very slowly reading this book & didn't think it applied to me just H.

Yes you are correct in saying I avoid confrontation like the plague !

I will start reading this with a more open mind to what I am doing not what H is doing.

Thank you again for pointing this out.

Sorry. Here's an example. Let's say you make $10000 of after tax income per month. Your mortgage or rent is probably fixed, so let's say that's $2000/month, which is 20% of your total budget. Then you'd like to save for a trip to FIJI next year, so you've agreed to save 10% of your income each month for that, which is $1000. Then you have food, which is 10% because you like organics. That's another $1000. Then you want to have 10% for an emergency fund. That's $1000. Then you want to buy stocks at 8%, that's $800. You and h agree that recreation is important and you translate that to buying a jetski in 1 year, so you want to save 8% a month for that jetski. Which is $800/month. You get the idea. All of the %s add up to 100 and you and your h decide on the % you need to spend in each category. All the dollars add up to $10000. That's called zero-budgeting.

ok still over my head but the examples really help a lot lol !!!

All I keep thinking about is what I'm not going to be able to do buy etc. No more scrapbooking, no manis no pedis, no vacays.
Is that my taker talking ??? I think so but not for sure.

I know I really need to do this for me & for us. So I will do it with the best attitude & forget about the crap I do not need.I need him not the scrapbooking, manis pedis etc.

I'm like a crash dieter thou I can only go without for so long & then I splurge !!!!! lol So another behavior I will need to work on. lol

And sometimes buying things fills a void when your needs aren't being met. Just accept that.

I'm sure your right I do have a lot of crap around. Things I thought I could just not do without. Don't get me wrong everything has a purpose, newest tool to clean with, cook with the newest thing to make our life/jobs easier.

Clearance racks are my best friends.Time to find other best friends....

Just wanted to add this is why he does not want to do a MB weekend.

A Cannot afford / without using a Credit card
( his exact words: this would be detrimental to our M right now )

B Doesn't want to spend $$$ = to nice vacay in MN lol

I have tabled the subject for now but he said he would think about it in a few months.

So that is my 1st exspense to start saving for to show him I am listening to what he wants/also what our marriage needs. But also committed to working on our M.

Hoping this is the right approach .... keeping my fingers & toes crossed.

That's it. Start a savings kitty for it. Try to get him to match you dollar for dollar.

Thanks for the idea !!!! Going to ask him 1st chance I get!!!

I keep reading about setting boundries, how do you do this ? And in what cases do you do this ? Is it too soon to set them ?

Will this not just push him away more ?

I have a turtle in shell attitude ( working on this )but will he see me as retreating/as repeating this behvior ? even if I tell him we can talk about this later ?

Kinda confused please explain ....

There's a few good threads on boundaries. Lemme see if I can find them.

And it is NEVER too soon to set boundaries. They are absolutely necessary.

I'll be back.

Post on Boundaries - From Pepperband's notable posts thread



ETA: Here's another post I read from LovingAnyway that describes Enforcing Boundries.

does that help?

As the world turns again ...... So setup boundary where I not going to take his DJ's anymore.
It wasn't 20 mins into the converstation & he let one fly. In the most cheerful voice I could muster
stated I was not going to tolerate it the conversation was over & I loved him & I would see him later.
We had dinner plans made he came over I cooked dinner yadayada still pulling teeth with converstation but better.

So anyway after dinner I could tell he was tired so lets get the show on the rode with SF.

Some may what to cover their eyes for this part.


While he is snoring I start crying, I just remember all of those times in our marriage where this was the norm. I can't help
it. Thinking he is a selfish lover & only cares about himself. ( instills my belief that this is a physical need not a emotional need)

He wakes up wanting to know why I am crying & I tell him I feel used. Not giving me a chance to explain what I mean by that.

Gets out bed ranting all the time , this is the last time this happens, your not going to pull me in again, nothng ever changes,
You say it can be better & then you pull this xyz. Your the one that pulled me into the bedroom & then claim you feel used.
Say he's done he cannot do this anymore. Storms out of the house.

We have an appt with our MC tomorrow night I do not know if he is even going to show. Or if I will. What is the point in all
of this ? We are making each other miserable.

Maybe sometimes love just ain't enough .........

Oh, dear. I'm so, so sorry ((((8th)))). I don't know how to deal with this - maybe it's a generational thing but I've never been with a selfish lover so I probably won't be much help.

Sex, for men, CAN be nothing more than a physical need but it can also be an emotional one. Men just seem to disconnect the physical and emotional much easier than women - that doesn't mean that they can't connect the two back together.

As you work on falling back in love that connection will come for him, but I think it will actually take being in love for him to do that.

You don't have to stick around for his angry outburst. Before he even gets into his stride you need to get up and say you won't be yelled at, you have a right to feel used (because you were) and yelling won't make you feel any less used. Tell him that you are disengaging til he calms down. Don't respond in anger though. (boundary enforcement)

He's angry because he hurt you and doesn't want to do anything to AVOID hurting you, what he doesn't realize is he can't yell the hurt out of you. Of course you feel used - you pulled him into the bedroom expecting some satisfaction and intimacy, instead you were just a stand-in for a blow up doll.

Don't give up - there will be set backs along the way. Just keep going and I promise it will get better. The point is to fall back in love and you CAN do that- you have the tools laid out in front of you, you just need to dust yourself off, decide what you're going to do differently next time and charge ahead.

Thank you

Maybe it will be tomorrow but right now it just seems hopeless...

Next segment of the world turns .....

H didn't show up for MC tonight. I honestly didn't think he would.

Me & MC talked felt much better after I left. She had a good few insights. Suggested I didn't cut off all contact with him, since that is/was one of his major complaints. So I just sent him a text saying I'm here if he wants to talk. I loved him & good nite.

So I'm stepping back a little & giving him some space to work through his own feelings. And I will hope for the best.

Well to update on soap opera ..... found he has been reading my posts online.... Hi Honey !!!!

So anyhow we didn't have any contact until sunday. Spent last couple of evenings together.I can't seem to avoid relationship talk. Either it be plans of future or present. It's like a big elephant in the room & I can't ignore it. And it ends bad ....

Doesn't think MB is the answer , I have to change the way I am & how I react to things before he will even consider it.

On the LB book club thread EHG mentioned the concept of your love bank :

quote :Everyone buys the idea that negative things people do will cause a withdrawal in something that people would readily agree is like a bank account. Even people who don't believe in the MB concept, can accept most of the LB book, at least in terms of the negative effects.

But why is it so hard for those same people, who readily agree that negative actions cause withdrawals, to believe that when the bank account is full enough from positive actions, the feelings of love will be there? It's almost like the bank account has account limits in their minds.

When I explain this to people, such as my dad, he adopts this sort of worldly wistful tone that love is just...something special...and you once it's gone, baby, it's gone. My w believes the same. And so do her parents.

I wonder if the lack of believing in the positive side of the love bank concept seems to be what prevents lots of spouses from trying.

Is it unusual for someone to believe in the LB negative side of the bank account and simultaneously not believe in the positive side? I wonder why? quote

I wonder if my H believes this ..... MB to him is a dirty word to him right now so I may save this question for another time.

I talked to a Psychologist today. He chastised me because the power of negative thoughts in my brain is a well exercised muscle. I can extrapolate worst possible scenarios to the n'th degree in a fraction of a second.

But...

pulling the POSITIVE out of something is a weak pathetic atrophied resemblance of what might have been a muscle back in the mesosoic era...

So maybe it isnt unusual. How many people do you know who can easily spot why something is "wrong," but when asked to find something positive about the same statement have trouble?

My wife wants to leave me. It is very easy for the negative possibilities to be identified, but it wasnt till I tried to pull the positives out of it that I realized how much good could come of it:

1) I learn about myself and become a better person
2) She learns that she doesnt have to accept being taken for granted, and learns its ok to stand up for herself.

It was a lot of work to come up with just those 2 for me, because like many people I know, its not whats GOOD about something that pops out in your mind first. People you meet that DO think of the good things first are generally fantastic people you are happy to be around.

Its a muscle. Use it and it will grow and get easier.

Just wanted to update .... Me & H had a pretty good weekend.
Still not as much UA time as I wanted or hoped for but was decent.

Still MB is a dirty word for the moment but I have my plan in place & a goal to works towards. Just hope it comes together.

Reconizing more things I am doing wrong & will try to correct those actions.

Do have one questions for the heavy hitters thou.

Which is worse in this scenario ?

A situation your in fear of it turning into a DJ/AO but does O&H out way in the end ?

I am working on eliminating DJ/AO as soon as I reconize them.

Long story short was meeting @ lake this weekend for some UA & FC time. He was several hours late ran into several snags etc.
I was still under assumption he was stopping by lake & turning around & leaving for a couple more hours (were are 75 mins from lake one way) to change vehicles etc. ( Was using CO truck to bring things to lake had to change for personal vehicle )

So by the time he finally made it I was in a quite p*ssy mood & didn't give him a warm greeting on the verge of icebox cold when arrived. Needless to say he ended up not leaving again for whatever reason.

So there was no issue except for him wasting several hours because of ill planning & bad luck on his part.

Salavaged rest of weekend & was talking this morning & he commented on when asked what was wrong I just shook my head & didn't tell him.

I did not tell him what was wrong because I was afraid of no matter how I said it or explained how I felt it would come out AO/DJ.

So in this situation whats more important O&H or keep elimnating LB's ?

Especially when you do not know how to do it in a kind & thoughtful way.

Without him saying I'm done & leaving.

I wanted him there more than driving him away with a AO or DJ.

AO & O&H is major on his LB quiz.

So folks please some advice for this newbie who is trying to muddle their way thru !!!!!

O&H is always important. Do you feel like you could have said, "I'm irritated that you were so late because when you are late, I feel like I'm not a priority. I'm irritated at myself over that, because intellectually I understand why you were late and I'm okay with that, but I still feel the emotional part, and it's frustrating. It's frustrating to feel two different things, in my head and my heart. And I don't want to take out my frustrations on you."

Did he say that he wanted you to tell him what was bothering you? If so, believe him! Try to remember to keep it focused on your experience of whatever it is, your emotional response.

Not: "You're always late! You're so thoughtless!"
Instead: "When you're late, I feel unimportant."

The problem with not answering honestly when someone asks, "What's wrong?" is that we tend to guess what could be wrong, and that can be disastrous!

Thank you for responding CWMI. I do need to reconize each individual occurrence instead of generalizing.

It is one of my main complaints with frequency of this bad habit.

Too the point of me ruining many evenings etc because of this happening.

I am really trying to overlook this & fill my time with something else so I will not be *** waiting *** for him.

And accept I cannnot change this bad habit / he only can change this.

But yes you are so correct , that is exactly what it feels like. I am the last on his list. I can get in line behind evreything else in his life.

So getting off here for now. I tend to get negative thoughts about H when I am on my thread.

Welcome any advice & I will still be reading everyone's thread.

Just trying to get & keep a positive outlook

Hi 8th grader,

I just read your thread.

And I think that you have to take a slightly different tack with your husband.

My guess is that he wants admiration, SF and affection.

These are things I would work on offering him, and I would continue to focus on how to be more positive in general in your own mind.

You need some healing 8th, and you are just destroying your husband.

He WANTS to make you happy. He wants a divorce because he feels he can't succeed. You have to show him that you love him, and that he is doing things right, and you are proud and pleased and happy with him.

Stop arguing with him, stop crying about things--set your mind on the positive and be a positive place for him.

Appreciate him, encourage him, thank him, and be tender and loving to him.

And I think you need help dealing with your SF issues. You have had so many sexual partners, and so many of them bad, that now occassionally doing it to simply connect with, and please, your husband is distasteful to you.

You need help in this area, and I hope you are getting it.

In the meantime, treat him as fragile. He seems angry, but he is broken, and (unintentionally), YOU are the one who is breaking him.

((((8th grader)))))

Be at peace, and be kind to this man who has NOT divorced you--because somewhere in inside, he loves you. He just can't stand the hurt anymore.

Thank you Telly

I know you are right.

I'm jumping & I'm not touching the ceiling yet. I am continually missing it.

Tone of my voice, the look in my eyes, etc. (no matter what is coming out of my mouth) Is saying to him I hate him.

I'm really trying to put MB practices in effect but LB's just keep coming out. I do not even know when I am doing it.

Should I ignore his IB (texting) repeatly have asked/demanded you name it. For him not to do when we are together since we do have such limited time together.

Every time I see that phone in his hand or hear the message ring go off it's like a lighting bolt thru me. I feel the surge of emotion.

Deep down I know he loves me but not having access to his e-mail accounts, phone logs, pc logs etc. Makes me really question if he still is continuing the EA or is planning to have a physical affair.

His laptop (Co owned) he doesn't have when we are together. Both phones are on him 24/7 ~ Company owns one cell phone / the one he uses for texting is technically owned & paided for by a customer. ( his went dead at her business & she gave him one of theirs saying he might as well use it she has to pay for line anyway. Yes, he has a tendency to get very close with his customers. Sub: son / listener , etc. That's how he increases his sales by becoming buddy,friend,child there at a moments notice to give them what they need to make a sale)

I'm not saying he is playing them & being dishonest far from it he considers them friends/ not a customers, but he has found this is the way to build the account up to be lucrative.

He has given me his passwords when I have asked (with the you do not trust me ??? he has given me wrong passwords in the past purposely & thought it was funny ) but it always has been when I do not have anything to write them down with or I'm in the middle of something else. ( I use the same passwords over & over because I can't even remember my own lol)

I do not know how to stop my reactions or the look in my eyes.

It breaks my heart him showing indifference to my hurt feelings or his walking out because he is not dealing with this right now.

I have a good day or 2 & the negativity comes right back.

By something he has said or done.

He is in Reno for the next week
maybe very limited contact will ease the situation.

I do not know how to stop ...... I love him with all of my heart but I do not know how to break thru his wall & work on this together.

Cannot give actual convo's we speak by mostly phone or in person. So I do not want to give break downs of those because what is actually coming out of my mouth maybe different then what is in my head & how I am preceiving it.

ie I think I'm being kind & thoughtful & he thinks I'm controlling,condescending,hateful.

so any ideas ???? Sure could use some new ones !!!!

Sorry didn't mean to ignore your point on SF. I am trying to incorporate that work into the MB stuff also.

I'm realising I have a lot of hangups when it comes to SF.

We are not seeing the MC together anymore. She has in turn became my IC.

She has helped me more individually than as a MC.

She sucked as a MC.

She feels I need to continue with her to work on my own indiviual issues with past childhood etc. I'm sure my sexual hangups will be addressed also.

No matter how embrassed I am in discussing them.


Also I am speaking with Dr J Tuesday evening maybe she can give me some clues.

Examples & scenarios are the only way I seem to get anything thru my head.

Thanks again ! I need several guiders along this journey ....
Also thanks for the hugs I really needed them.

No one in IRL to discuss this with except for DD & IC.

Both are on Vacay for awhile.

I just wanted to say ......

I'm not looking for sympathy or the easy way out for everyone else to do the leg work for me, but a way to correct my actions & change my outlook.

Obviously what I am doing is not cutting it.

So sorry if anyone has precieved it this way.

I am sorry you have been thru so much. From the beginning someone should have told you to abstain from sex or always use birth control. Instead you got pregnant early. At that time, if someone cared for you they could have told you to get an abortion. What happened there?

Anyway, from the beginning when you started having sex, you had the wrong relationship with sex. You had the wrong idea about what sex was for. Since you had sex but did not enjoy it.

Did you think sex was for one of these reasons :

1. Pleasing men
2. Having men like you
3. Just like any other activity
4. Being popular
5. Getting attention
6. Rebelling against authority
7. Sharing something with men
8. What men want
9. Unable to say no to men
10. What you should do with men
11. Instead of conversation with me
12. A way to get close to men.

You could have been molested when you were very small.

Your marriage is affected by how messed up you are in the sexual realm (not your fault) and by the child you had at a young age,

I think if you heal from some of this sexual damage where you became ONE with 1000 men, and messed up your sexual responses and your sex gears in your head, then you can and will want to have more sex with your husband.

I am amazed you did not have 5 more kids, good going at stopping at just the one!

Relax and heal from the sex stuff and other childhood dysfunction and maybe you will be able to show your husband you are different and he will come back to you.

Good luck in your healing~!

I have this theory about one of the things that changes after a women has a child. Its based on natural behavior tendencys not on decisions women consiuosly make and of course will not apply to everyone

Woman can tend to be nurturer types. Men like to be fussed over and especially young men seem to need the reassurance that they are the center of the universe to thier girl.

This works well untill a child comes along, then the attention she used to lavish on the man goes to the child.

That along with the daunting reponsibilities having a child brings can make the man feel unloved and small.

Again that is my theory and its based on natural reactions so I don't know how much applies to your sitch

Im sorry 8thG I have not read thru the whole thread and probably should keep my mouth shut but i read your first post and it seemed H was throwing a fit and wasn't co-operating so i wanted to throw out a line of support for you.

Ok bubbles you made me laugh ! You must really think I have the power ! For 1000 men reallly I did not have that much energy or free time. lol

It was more like 13 or 14 in my entire life way too many in my book still.

I was told about birth control but chose to ignore it.

I actually got PG my 2nd or 3rd time. It was in a couple of weeks span of time so don't really know can't say for sure exactly when but it wasn't like we had been doing it for awhile & decided to take a chance.

No, I have really bad luck & it happened pretty quick.

The 5 kids thing .... could of happened but god intervened & I got a really bad infection after DD was born & went into my tubes. So no more .... just the beautiful dark haired / blued eyed daughter I always wanted & dreamed about.

Looking into her big blue eyes when they layed her on my chest made all of the pain & being alone worth it in the end.

Now for what I was or wasn't told.....

I was told guys only wanted in your pants.

I was told they will tell you any lie to get you into bed.

I was told guys only wanted one thing.

I'm sure there is a bunch of others but those stand out in my mind.

When my mother found out I was PG her exact words were you made your bed now you can sleep in it.

She was actually my rock thru the whole thing. I was so ashamed. I didn't want to be seen out in public. Hung my head when I would walk to school.Knowing everyone was pointing & talking behind my back.

I lost most of my current friends. 1 or 2 stood by me or hung out with me on occasion.But mostly I was alone in the journey. It was like I had the plague.

I know I do have hang ups about SF actually have way more than I orignally thought after being on here for awhile.

Everything you listed I believed at one point & time.

I will not adresss the molestation thing on here. I do not need to dredge up the past to work on my future on here.

Thank you sorted ..... I appreciate it.

I do think when I stopped giving him all of my attention & hanging on to his every word is when major cracks started showing up. That was way after our DD thou.

Telly : I'm still unclear on admiration some examples please.

Anyone examples ????? I'm a little slow that way they tend to sink in better.

Ah examples lol well I will let the ladies help you with those because they know how us boys are.

I will tell you this though and it was something that made me happy. Seeing my wife happy, a note in my lunchbox with a lipstick kiss on it, shameless bragging about me when I knew it was overblown.

Those things were as good as sex sometimes meaning a much more spiritual connection was being made when sex was not an option,(work, sleep or other schedules).

Of course that was in the good years..


Hang in there

I've found that really thinking over everything my husband does in his life that I have found a hundred reasons to really admire him. So I tell him. Everytime I look at him and think something positive I say it. Thats a big part of O&H too!

Thanks Rosy & Sorted ....

I guess why I'm having so much trouble with the admiration is because he honestly hasn't done anything I can admire him for.

Anything in the past I could admire him for has turned on me some way shape or form.

Example : His financial sense ..... him making me feel stupid in his eyes when it comes to money.

Example: him being dedicated to his job ..... he is currently a workaholic & he has traded me for hours/sales/customers/$$$ what have you.

Example : Mechanical skills ...... I've needed a belt replaced on my car for good part of a year. Belts sitting in the gargage on the shelf.

Example: he is extremely smart ..... talked down to me or treated me as if I was too dumb to understand what he is saying. Asked him to explain what he means "oh come on you can't be that stupid."

Example : he is a good father ..... in turn makes me feel like I'm a bad mother because I didn't handle something the way he
thought it should be done.

I'm not saying he is a monster by no means or he purposely does these things. But I can't admire someone that makes me feel like crap.

I can think of a few postives but not many....

I am begining to realise I DJ in my head more than anything something will remind me of something he could of , would of , should of done.

And from there it's down hill. Maybe he is right & there is too much hurt to move forward ...... Sorry very negative tonight.

Still being negative today ..... Have a appt with DR J tonight maybe she will be able to change my attitude.

How can I stop Djing in my head ? I'm trying to change my thought process but the littlest thing will remind me & like I said before down hill from there. I'm already in the down hill spiral before I even realise what I am doing. Trying to go back to a postive is almost impossible.

Sorry you are in a bad space today.

The only thing that helps me not DJ in my head (I tend to stem out on the negative when I get to that place) is when I see a glimps of something in my H that I need. No matter how small. I have to force myself to thank him for something, even if I really do not WANT to thank him because I feel it is something that should be done anyway. I am working on that. Thank you for that one sock making it near the hamper. It may not have been both socks, and it may not even be IN the hamper, but sometimes that is good as it is going to get.

Start small? Can you think of anything?

I'm really trying but these buts keep popping up geeesh !!!! I know they are out there.

Ok I got one ..... He always made sure the animals had fresh water.

This is really bad !!!! I will keep thinking.

Just at the moment the bad out weigh the good.

Well, he cared that they were well cared for - that goes deeper than just a bowl of fresh water, right?

You are right !

He really is a good guy for the most part or I wouldn't have been with him all of these years.

I'm begining to realise I'm doing most of the dammage in my head.

Trying to write down 3 postive things about him a day. It has been really hard to come up with 3 different a day.

But I will keep trying.

Here are some ideas of things that you can admire; some are typical for separated families:

Goes to work every day.

Calls you.

Comes over to help out when you need it.

Gives you money to support the house.

Gentle with the children.

Took responsibility all those years ago, and stayed with you once he found about about PG1.

Takes care of the cars/yard--or whatever thing he does/did around the house.

Puts up with you when you are emotional and/or needy.

Anything you miss that he did when he was home?

Clean up after himself; help with the children; take care of the animals; help with the shopping; help you move things/reach things on high shelves.

Anything you love about him/his body?

I love the way my husband smells with or without cologne. I love his hands. His beautiful, piercing blue eyes. He has amazing lips. He always dresses very well. He has great legs. He has the right amount of body hair and it's a very nice color.

You can tell him what you miss. I would miss touching my husband. I would miss kissing him. Seeing his face. Hearing his laugh. Listening to his stories. I would miss making dinner for him. I would miss touching him and waking up next to him.

8th grader I know that you don't feel there is much to admire right now. But how you cultivate a spirit of gratitude and appreciation is to BE grateful and appreciative. I find that the more I look for to express my gratitude, the more I see to appreciate.

good luck.

Thank you Telly !

You brought up some very good reminders.

Everyone helping me on here has been great! The bad has out weighed the good for so long all I see & what runs through my head are the bad.

Not the great man I married.

I spoke with Dr J last night & she gave me some ideas on how to stop the dj's in my head.

I believe even thou I am not speaking them he is feeling them when I speak & he can see them in my eyes.

Which in turn is being just as hurtful.

I want to thank you again. You slapped me in the face & I needed that.

Please keep up with my thread & continue to slap me when I need it

I am so bogged down by resentment & could of , should of's I am not seeing clearly the man he is.

Even if he never comes on board with MB. I'm learning to get my hatefullness out of the way.

I do not want him to ever feel I hate him. That's just not me.

That's the monster I have become.

Thanks again Telly you gave me hope , thats it's not over , I have a lot rebuilding to do.

Well I'm back to post the new saga. A lot has happened over the last couple of months. I'm notifing mods to move this thread.

I am now offically a BS. This is all like a bad dream to me. I do not know which end is up anymore.

The weekend of June 17th we went away for the weekend.I planned this little mini vacay totally around him. We had a bump on the way down there but it got worked out. We get to our cabin & to my suprise very limited cell service. Great maybe we can have a real vacay without the texting. 1st day or so went great,2nd day good, 3rd day he found places with signal to text. We still had a good time but every time he picked up that phone a shock went thru me.

We get back to our cabin & get ready for dinner. Had a nice dinner out on way back had another spat about cops being all over & him talking on his cell phone & driving in a strange city not paying attention. So anyway the nite went down hill from there. Earlier when he was in the shower I had checked his phone & there was incoming messages but no outgoing.

So anyway I took a bath & he went to bed. Well as I was getting ready for bed his phone was on the charger & I checked it. Low & behold there was outgoing messages that didn't go thru because of the service.

one of the messages said : I love you dear that's why we make such a good couple. WTF this from someone he always said was a male friend. So I started checking the address book & comapring phone#'s this defintely was not his male friends phone#.

Started crying pretty much had guessed who the person was just needed confirmation.

Sat & cried for a couple of hours finally fell asleep for about 1hr or so. Got back up & he got up little while later.

He confirmed who it was & they had NOT done anything. He instisted upon this. I let on that I have the phone#'s out of his phone. He just goes weird defending her & saying I'm not going to start trouble with her & he promised her this wouldn't happen. To the point he physically was trying to get my phone away from me to delete the phone#'s out of it. I was so hurt he was protecting her & goin to those lengths to do so. Well I wasn't dumb enough to put them in my phone anyway. lol
This went on for several hours. Back & forth. He was given a choice me or her he has 1wk to decide.
We get ready to come home very long 5hr drive. Our DD meets us @ home & wants to hang out. Several more long hours he finally leaves.

So anyway I didn't talk to him all week except for a text from him saying I wasn't protecting her I was protecting you. WTF

Saturday comes & he says he has made his choice. He wants to be 100% committed to me. I tell him well 1st step is moving back home. He says well I need to find out if I can break my lease. Fine see what you can do. Any how we are suppose to be leaving on a family vacay to his family's on the following Friday. So Tues comes & We are on the phone & he tells me his whole family (except for Mother ) knows we have been seperated. And I am like WTF we agreed we wasn't going to tell the families till we figured this out. Well I have some thing else to tell you to & I am like what now ???? Me & OW having been having an affair for the last 2yrs !!!!!!!! I just burst out crying I couldn't help it. I couldn't believe it. More was said don't remember a whole lot of it now. I was pretty much in shock & numb. Got thru the next day & started writing my exposure e-mail & I made a fatal mistake. I asked him if I should send it.

He came over later that night to get mower out for me. We talked & sorted some of it out. He spent the night & hadn't decide if I was going on the family vacay or not at that point.

Well dd got involved & I ended up going. We talked a lot on the trip & got some of it out in the open. Had a good time with his family was on pins & needles the whole time knowing his family knew he confessed to his sis in nov he was screwing around & you know how word travels thru families. He was some what considerate with his phone limited texting etc.

Monday July 5th comes & there was a family incident with his younger brother that was very hard & stressful on his mother so we just kind of hung out that evening grilling & visitng.

About 11:00pm or so he says I'm going to bed since we were leaving the next morning. I sit up talking to his Sis because she still had not said a word to me.

Gotta go finish this later before I lose it.lol

You should have sent those emails and exposed his affair, I am soo sorry you had to find out you should start reading scotty's newly betrayed spouses...

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2370240#Post2370240

Thank you sapphire I am starting to agree. But the saga isn't finished yet. Will continue when I get more time.

wrong section!!!