That really sucks. I'm sorry you had such a rough day with the marriage.

You're in alanon right? Do you have a sponsor? Have you gotten sponsorship on this situation?

I know now is probably not the time that you want a 2x4. So I'll use a 2x2 instead


I'm not so sure this was the best thing that could have been said. And this coming from me, who has also said similar things, like, "If we're going to stay married . . . . [insert demand here]."

All I know is that when I make those statements, it doesn't do anything the make the situation better.

I'm not one to be able to give advice on boundaries. But I think there is a difference between giving an ultimatum and setting a boundary. If think it's the difference between talk and action. Ultimatums are "just talk" whereas enforcing a boundary is an action, and I don't have to say a thing.



Something about this rubs me the wrong way. I'm not sure why, so please take it for what it's worth. You know your situation better than I do, and perhaps asking her to come with you WOULD have been worse. But she already IS in the middle of it, by virtue of the fact that she is living under the same roof as you both and are affected by both of your actions. And your husband's comment PUT her in the middle of this fight. And you left her. With him. Because you are scared of him. And she likely is scared of him too. You left her with an angry father who threatened her not to move. Yeah, he might not have HIT her. Doesn't mean he can't do damage.

I know. It's not the first time something like this has happened. And I feel horrible..I fell down in my duty.

I had to head one way to get my car keys and told my daughter to get ready as I walked past her. He said "NO, YOU STAY HERE". I was going to take her anyway, middle of it or not, but when I headed back out past her, he was sitting next to her on the couch, cuddling her and speaking very softly. I felt she'd be ok.

Then stop.

Do you really think holding his hand and stroking his ego protects him?

I don't.

It's not my job to protect my husband from the consequences of his actions. The only "protection" I need to be doing is protecting him from me and my less-than-stellar actions. It is not my job to protect him from himself.

Detachment with love, OH. A fine art I am only beginning to learn.

Let go of the guilt. So what. You weren't perfect. It's not a mistake if you learned something from it.

So what did you learn? What will you do better next time?

I have learned a new way to apologize, and am taching my kids this as well. Don't say, "I'm sorry." Say, "I was wrong for doing X behavior. Next time I will do Y."

I want the person I wronged to know that I learned. I especially want to know that my kids have learned from their mistakes.

If someone apologizes to me, I ask them, "what ae you sorrry for doing?" So that I know that they are not just trying to relieve themselves of guilt. And I will often ask, "What will you do better next time?"

((OH))

One small observation - if you know talking with his mom drives him nuts, and he was already in a bad mood, why not let him process the call on his own and talk to you about it if he chooses?

His behaviour was unacceptable, but it does sound like you sort of opened yourself up to a negative reaction by going to talk with him right after, and then staying there when it was obvious that he didn't want to talk.

I'm sorry about this entire situation and I do understand why you are feeling like you are just DONE.

This morning, I again told him I couldn't be in a marriage where angry outbursts were so common and so intense. That I was working really hard to eliminate mine and I was hoping that he was doing the same. I still feel he flies right into an outburst when he's angry. I told him that I understand and respect his right to be angry but that the outbursts were not acceptable.

I got **crickets**

I shamefully admit that any advice I gave you right now would be not so MB, so I will just:

((((((OH))))))

It's ok, Luri..the advice I'm giving myself is not MB!

Very helpful comment...Did not realize that anger can be shown as fear for males. sometimes anger is just anger though...In this case (OH's statement about her H's response to her falling apart) I can see the anger-fear connection.

No response or acknowledgement of my AO statement from this morning...in words that is.

He wanted to sit down and talk about the work sitch. Unfortunately, I had to get to work. But we talked briefly. I had to tell him gently, that I just want him to listen to me and support my all out efforts to get a new job. I'm not interested in long-term fixes to my current job sitch. I thought he was going to get angry but I headed it off by saying "my mind is made up about this. My unhappiness over my job is spilling into all other areas of my life."

He's...well I don't know what he's trying to do. He went on and on this AM about how he was trying to be supportive picking up the slack at home and if I needed more, I needed to tell him. I told him that I wouldn't hesitate to do that; however at the moment, I needed to focus on my mental attitude about my job.

Told him my four choices that I listed here, telling him I knew #1 and #3 were not wise but on the list anyway.

So he is trying to be nicey-nice and I'm just upset. Why can't he apologize for last night's AO? Does he think I'm going to sweep it under the rug and ignore it if he sticks his head in the sand?

I cancelled Thursday's appointment with Steve and I noted I wasn't interested in further sessions right now. No sense throwing good money after bad. I'm not sure how committed I can be to MB.

I copied H on the email to the MB counseling schedulers.

More **crickets**

BTW, I had an all out panic attack yesterday morning and he told me I needed to get a hold of myself and calm down. NOT the thing to tell me in the midst of a panic attack!

Possible answer:

We both make the rules about how we're going to be together. You make the rules as far as how you would like your wife and lover to treat you and I make the rules as far as how I would like my husband and lover to treat me. I have every right to expect respect and courtesy from my husband - even when my husband is feeling angry.

I'll be willing to talk about this again when you are able to speak to me with respect and courtesy. Want a cookie?

Sorry - I HAD to put the cookie thing in at the end. It's something I picked up from Mark over @ SAA. LOL!



It may not work the first time, but it will work the 4th or 5th time. You're showing him how you want to be treated and what you are not willing to tolerate. If you keep cooperating with the AOs they will continue and possibly escalate. I speak from experience. You two didn't get to this point without your cooperation (just like us) and now I am suggesting you stop cooperating - like I did. The first few times, it's odd and you'll be scared to make him more angry....which may happen. But eventually it changeds thing. You are in a dance of two. Change your steps.



Bingo.

I know you said you don't have the mental energy for MB right now....I suspect it's due to your job situation in conjunction with an uptick in his AOs mixed in with the fact that his not earning being an LB for you. I have felt this way for my own reasons and I'll tell you what someone was kind enough to tell me:

Get dressed, suit up, and show up.

Take it day by day & moment by moment. You can do it!


PS - I don't know what area you're in, but if you're in a place where there are Federal positions, please register @ USAJobs. There are real vacancies and people are getting hired. Your medical benefits will be very good and your salary & position will be secure.

Check out this site to see the benefits & Pay Scales. There's a link to USAJobs from there too. You need to complete a profile, load your resume, and then start applying. Also set up search agents and have vacancies emailed to you every day.

OH,

Please re-read kerala's post...because part of our dance is to self-sabotage...after years of trying to change the other person, we get clear on our stuff, our boundaries, and then in crisis, we want the old, safe, known reactions...

and tell ourselves we don't.

You set him up with eyes wide open. I have no doubt at all that on Friday, if he'd come and sat on the bed, and kept at you right then (when you couldn't speak) and asked you question after question, you would have gone off, gotta away from him.

You emailed because you chose not to speak. You chose to believe you could not...and then you did, btw. You KNOW he hates email, feels you reject him, discount him when you email him instead of talking to him...and you've known this for awhile now. A long while.

You seem to justify why it's okay to do what sets him off (you have said before how calls with his mother set him off)...and you do it anyway. In my experience, you look for justification (his treatment of his daughter and her desire to talk to her grandmother) and you find it.

And yet...I don't hear you teaching your daughter to ask for what she wants and to come up for ways she is empowered to get it...such as she calls grandma after Dad hangs up. Or later...two hours afterward for him to have gotten his buttons back into place.

Would you consider part of his anger is FOR you...not at you? That he feels FOR you, hurts when you hurt, feels anger when you're angry...and like Retread said, has not chosen to learn how to manage his emotions. You already know this...don't bait the tiger and then condemn him.

Your time for removal was during his call to his mother. That's when you take your daughter out to talk to her about ways for her to connect with her grandmother differently (email, letters, cards, calls at other times). Not to avoid conflict...to break you training her by your actions that Daddy is the monster, the bad guy, how you get around men, give into and control.

Because that's the real message...the hidden hubris of eggshells is that WE control another human being...their feelings, reactions, lives.

You know you don't. You hit a really awful day on Friday, being shot down, unappreciated, discounted and dismissed at work...and that hurts a lot. You weren't taking it wrong, being overboard or dramatic. Did I read correctly that you told your H you were really upset over work, wanted to spontaneously quit...and then you tacked on telling him your anger was because he wasn't working so you couldn't?

Would you consider that you took out your anger on him, just as you saw him attack you from the anger he felt at his mother?

And because you both have done this dance for years, it's okay? So that when you say your ultimate boundary (instead of DOING your progressive enforcements) of divorcing him if he won't stop hurting you verbally...is your way of ensuring that the hurt dance continues and you win?

Because like the mother-call, you KNOW he has a fear of abandonment...and it's huge, and you hit him right on target each time you threaten him with divorce...fueling his fear, hitting his buttons just like his mother.

And like her, then you point at him for making you threaten to leave him.

That's what I see...and you're so great at it, you don't see it...and then, at times, you do, OH...you see it clearly. We do actually change our actions at one level (say the level 10 of everyday interactions)...and when our emotions hit a new level (say 30), we revert to old habits. Until we implement, practice and reaffirm we really want this change at any level. And be prepared when you guys hit a level 50, to stop, breathe, realize and reaffirm...not react.

Part of the whole...not the proof of not changing, end of the relationship. You may, however, be trying again to end your marriage. Maybe that's part of your threat to him to change or else...maybe you really want to end it and your own desire to win at all costs gets in the way?

I dunno...just guessing. I know my signals would get crossed like that...where what I really wanted was to end MY provocative actions (which I didn't see), and say I wanted to end the marriage. We are RH when we say "I don't want this to happen like this"...and it comes out like you stated it.

One great thing about having an abusive spouse who AO's...he sure gives us permission through justification for our actions..."Least I'm not as bad as he is!" when we're in crisis and we have that little tape in our head telling us what a screw up we are, shoulda seen this coming stuff.

I know you love your family very much, OH. I know you feel incredible pressure to "make it happen"...and I'd really like you to look at ways you might be self-sabotaging in your choices (which can be in the recent past where you stopped telling H how important FS from him is to you, how it affects your attraction to him, and how much you fear falling financially (or feeling trapped) because he's not choosing to work. Then it's not a weapon, it's an update, it's information...and it's not a "this is all your fault that I feel this way right now" and it's not off the track you were on prior to Friday...so you don't derail.

I don't see where you said how much cursing he did...and I know this was important to you...was it not happening, not reported, or not what got to you the most?

LA

To all:

I'm very, very tired of doing this dance. Whether or not I'm using the right steps or doing the right steps, it doesn't matter to me right now. I'm tired of dancing and I want to sit out the next few songs, if not the entire rest of the dance.

LA: I have been honest lately about FS..both through the ENQ and rehashing of the ENQ and other things said not in the heat of the moment. I'm trying to rid myself of the resentment I feel that he is not working and I'm working my tail off. And it's not working.

I get to the point where I ask myself...why do I want to be married to him? I make Pro/Con columns in my head. The CON column almost consistently racks up more items than the PRO column.

And SF? Please..I don't want him near me right now. Then I read Hold's statement about the dance he and his wife are in. He claims he would achieve more professionally if his wife gave him more sex? I can't buy into that, even if there is truth in it. Because it means my H isn't working because I'm so unattracted to him right now I don't want to engage in SF?

Chris: Thanks for the link. I'm in the Boston area; I know there are federal jobs here. I'm not familiar with that whole sector but I'll take a look at the website.

This thought helped me to do my part to help us end my H's AOs which included physical attacks. Now I am working on doing my part to help us end the AOs (verbal).


Eggsactly.

For folks who want & need a flexible workplace, great benefits, opportunities for advancement / education assistance or for those with medical issues who need workplace accomodations / protections (or folks who have family members with medical issues) - it's really great.

OHouse,
This is the part that bothers me the most. There he is freaking out with AO's at you but he turns 180 with dd?!?! This inconsistency really hits me the wrong way as in controlling and dangerous possibility of snapping with violence against more than a chair.

And I would add to the other post too about how men's brains work. Specifically how they work with emotions... which is generally not very good. In all the reading I've done I've concluded that the reason women like to talk so much as that process actually produces happy chemicals in the female brain. In men the very first thing that happens with an emotion is fight or flight. It takes them longer to process emotion if they ever do get around to analyzing it if ever.

Thus the need for a very safe, secure, open discussion regarding anything he could be reacting too. I know this makes it seem like you have to walk on eggs which is not what I am suggesting. Just that even he needs to give himself much more patience and "take it slow" kind of approach.

P.S. I've been known to take days to process an emotional situation and I think that's typical for men.

Sorry you are having such a difficult time lately.

OH, are you thinking about getting a divorce... I mean NO KIDDING - Going down to the courthouse and FILING the paperwork?

If not, then you need to put your dancing shoes on. Saying / thinking "Why do I want to stay married to this man?" is not helping (Again, I speak from experience.)

Right now, the CON column is going to be longer than the PRO column. That's a given with a marriage in crisis & it proves NOTHING other than your relationship needs help - which we already know because you're here @ the MB forum. MB is about getting the PRO column to overwhelm the CON column.

You can vent @ MB, but expect that most folks here will tell you that you have to try...especially when you don't feel like hearing it.


(((OH))))

Regarding the issue with OH's daughter. My H will do something similar - Be nasty with me and then immediately turn around and be nice to our child....like the child can't see or hear.

OH's H did this too.

Does anyone have any advice / experience / guidance on how to handle this issue? Is it something about "control" with them?

OH -

I don't know what to tell you. I know *exactly* what you're going through. The only differences between our FS sitches is that my job is going well and supports us financially and my H though making no attempt to bring in any money, will be graduating in May and is already networking to try and have a job lined up even for teaching summer school. So I can see light at the end of my tunnel, and I don't have the drowning feeling.

To continue that bad analogy, you're still having to fight the guy you're in the water with to keep him from dragging you down, and you just got a cramp. My guy and I are just in the water together without a life preserver, but he's not dragging me down right now and I'm swimming ok.

You know, and I know, the advice you're going to get here is geared toward saving your marriage. You're not going to get absolution for filing D paperwork on this board. You're going to get suggestions for how to pick yourself up and keep rowing your side of the boat, hoping eventually he'll start rowing his side and you can quit going around in circles and actually *get* somewhere. But if you're feeling like you're in the water drowning and can't even get in the boat...

Ok. After all that rambling, I do have something to offer.

Take care of yourself. Seriously. Physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually... figure out what you NEED to be healthy, and start figuring out ways to get it for yourself. You have got to stay healthy to either get out of the marriage or to fight for it.

Be HONEST with your H, but be compassionate in the WAY you're O&H. He *does* need to hear that his refusal to get a freakin job is contributing to your emotional distress. But you need to keep it to your "I statements", and you have GOT to learn to say it to him face to face. Keep your boundaries about the AO's... don't stay physically present for them, but the email stuff has to stop. Email is for communicating schedules and shopping lists - not for feelings.

Look at it this way... you can't keep living like this. Make a change. It might not be the right change, but it's movement, and it's easier to make a course correction once you're moving than when you're stuck.

Hugs, and hang in there.

I love LA's posts. Absolutely love them. I hope one day I can have a shred of that wisdom in me

There are times when I have that same feeling of wanting to sit out the dance, maybe permanently. Start dancing with someone else to a different beat. Except I know THIS dance too well, and whether I try a new dance with my husband, or move on to someone else, I know that I will be right back to the same olds steps I know best. I know this because it happened over and over again in dating, and I really did think I was doing something different when I started dating my husband. He was so different than the others, or so I thought.

He was different in some ways, but I was the same. I am the common denominator. And no matter what I choose, I still have to live with me. I still have to live with my character defects. Thos are not dependant on my husband, no matter how much I lie to myself and say I wouldn't do X if he didn't do Y. Trust me, I would find someone else and do X, regardless of whether they do Y, because I am programmed to do X. I can't help it. Except that I can, now that I know.

I can make all the "pro" columns and "con" columns I want. But making decisions like that has never worked for me. It is better for me to trust in God's timing and direction for my decision making. And the way I know it's God is that he uses small words and profound peace in the decision.

Don't expect an apology from your husband yet. He's not there yet. He doesn't really know WHAT he did wrong, only that it made him feel bad. He seemed to be trying this morning though. I know it's not enough, I've been in that place before too. I'm there a lot, actually.

I DO want a cookie