my wife of 12 years and a SAHM (we have 3 kids) for 9 years wanted a separation without any warning signs the Fall of '08. Sought counseling with our Priest and due to our schedules we didn't keep going. Then gradually my wife began withdrawing from me sexually and our lack of sex became an issue that resulted in arguments...Started counseling again and had to stop after 6 months as we weren't gaining any ground...Saw our Priest again and he recommended a therapist after he individually counseled my wife and discovered that he wasn't going to be able to counsel her effectively.

She's been going to counseling on her own for a few months and still I was seeing no change...So I began going with her...I've been to 4 sessions and all we do is BS about this and that, that has nothing to do with our situation...

A little background on my wife...she's never been the affectionate type, nor has she really ever been one to initiate SF, but she's always been receptive to my initiations to SF and once we begin SF, she always enjoys it.

Since having our kids, she's been on anti-depressive medication...since the past 3 years she's been under the care of a psychiatrist...in the past in was just our family physician, until he said that there was nothing else he could do for her...since under the care of her psychiatrist, her psychiatrist noticed that she was having no improvement with the medication therapy...she told my wife that her 'depression' seemed to be "situational", so she began coming off her meds...this was the Spring and Summer of '08...our sex life improved greatly, but she had a short temper...everything irritated her...me, the kids, the dog, the house, people sitting around us in Church...you name it.

Then as I already mentioned, out of the blue, she wanted a separation in the Fall of '08...under the care of her psychiatrist she began her meds again and now, they are just trying this pill, trying that pill, add this pill...then she began having an attitude and being downright nasty when I would initiate sex...whenever I would bring this to her attention, she would throw all kinds of excuses my way and make me feel guilty for even initiating sex with her (she's "sick", she's tired, headache, backache, neck ache...I can go on and on).

An important note is that after I finally got tired of the excuses and getting some bad advice from co-workers, I did do some love busters with my remarks...it's no excuse, but eventually I didn't know what else to do, but try to get her attention to how serious I felt the situation was getting to. BUT, that has been over 7 months ago...it's time we move on...IF I really meant what I said, I'd left her...

I found MB's 3 months ago and since we've been in a 40 day Fast for Easter, I figured I would take the time and layoff her and put her EN's first and not push SF with her...Sooooo, late Sunday Morning (we have Easter (pascha) service at midnight on saturday night) I began initiating SF with a backrub, foot rub and it goes nowhere...again I didn't push the issue...we left and went to meet friends for a Easter party...got home, took a nap and ate and put the kids to bed...sat around relaxing for an hour and I asked if we could pick up where we left off this morning...Her response was typical...after spending 3 months of not pressuring her and meeting her EN's and not having sex since before Christmas I was let down AGAIN...

So I got frustrated and left the room and slammed the bedroom door and began taking a shower...she comes into the room and says she'll be waiting for me...I tell her to forget it, I'm no longer in the mood...I take a shower and she's in bed...we begin to argue more...

Here's what I get from the argument...She's A-sexual...whatever the hell that means...she's just not into sex...she gets nothing out of it...all these years she's just went along with it to "please" me and now, she's tired of doing it just to please me when it does nothing for her...(on a side note: it's not like I "use" her for my pleasure...I always engage in foreplay to get her in the mood in the past...you name it I do it and she's always enjoys it or she's a VERY good faker)...

So I don't know what else to do...meeting her EN's unconditionally is getting old...my need for affection and SF are VALID needs, regardless if she's never been "into" sex in the past and NOW, just b/c she's feels she shouldn't engage in SF, just for MY benefit I should just "get over it...i'm an adult"...is BS.

She couldn't tell me what it is I am doing to warrant this kind of passive aggressiveness from her...she tells me that i'm a good husband and father and even our counselor can't pinpoint what her problem is.

I hated to say this to her last night, but I'm really sick of the excuses...her excuse that she's just not into SF is a weak excuse...there's lot of things I do for her, when I don't feel like it, but I do them, b/c I love her and I do them without resentment, b/c I know she likes it and it makes me feel good knowing she enjoys it.

So she asked if I want her to come off the medications and become a [censored] to me and the kids, just to be more "in the mood for sex"...what do I say to that? So I told her IF her life (which is a very good one by most standards) is that BAD, that she has to be on Med's to get the hell out...leave me and the kids...I'm fully capable of raising my kids myself apart from her. (another love buster i'm sure, i'll pay for now!)

So now she says she will "regress" back to her old "submissive" self and roll over like a dog and do what I want...she wants me to write down the evenings "I" want sex on a calendar so she can be "prepared"...I told her I don't want that, that I want her to "want" to meet my EN's unconditionally out of love for me...but she says she can't, b/c SF is just something she's not in tune to...she doesn't care for SF and doesn't desire it...but for some reason, I have to live with it...

Suggestions please!!!

Yeah, you LBd alright. Whatever love you restored by meeting her EN for lent was probably all drained out by your telling her to leave.

I could analyze the situation to death, because I've been in your wife's shoes, and I know that dance really well. I could tell you all about what may be behind the depression, her excuses about sex, her mixed messages. Bottom line is she knows she's not being her best self, and she feels guilty, and she's baiting you into giving her some justification for her bahaviors.

Justifications are just the lies we tell ourselves so that we can sleep at night. But just because it's a lie doesn't mean I have to feed it with my own bad behavior.

Stop the LB. You'll get nowhere until you do that consistently.

What are her top EN? Any ideas? What have you been doing to meet them? Do you spend 15+ hours UA together? I know with 3 kids that can be a challenge.

I'm sure others will have things to say as well.

Her top 2 EN's are "Recreational" and "Conversation"

I've been doing my best to meet those EN's since Christmas and it hasn't been out of resentment, nor have I looked for her to repay me...I've done them cheerfully...

In regard to the LB last night, when you hear constantly that "I have to be on medication to tolerate you and the kids"...I really take offense to that, when she can't even tell me what it is me or the kids are doing to "irritate" her...what kind of life is it that you have to be on meds to tolerate your family and in the same sense punish them.

In regard to 15+ hours of UA she said that was impossible for her to do, in addition to filling out the questionnaires...when I brought this up to her 3 months ago...

so, if she wants me to "schedule" SF on a calendar (as my OP states)...I'll do so every single night and not even make it about SF, but about affection and conversation and trick her into UA without her realizing it...

wonder if that can show her, that it's more than sex for me...which it is...

in addition, is she not LB'ing me? she keeps it up and eventually I'll withdraw and God forbid I find myself in a situation where another woman even looks at me the right way...

her, sudden attitude that since sex is something she's not into now or ever in the past and feels, i should just "get over it"...is hardly affair proofing our marriage, unless I have morals of steel or take a vow of celibacy in my marriage, she's jeopardizing our marriage ...

and here's another little tidbit...about a year-ago I was speaking with my mother about what I was going through with my wife to draw some encouragement from... my mother told me and promised that I wouldn't repeat it, because it was something my wife confided in her about, but felt it could help me understand what my wife is dealing with...

my wife asked my mom, if she ever reached over and held my dad's hand when they were driving or walking together...my mom said occasionally she will and asked her why she asked...she told my mother that she wants to do those things...be affectionate, but just doesn't know how to do it...and she was afraid that in her not knowing how will eventually take a toll on our marriage...that was over 5 years ago when she told my mom that...

now, she's letting sex and her lack of thinking my EN for SF is valid hurt our marriage, because she doesn't know how to be affectionate.

So yes, I agree, I feel she's beating herself up as being a bad wife, BUT I continue to send her cards, flowers and write her encouraging love letters that express how great of a wife she is and mother to our kids...

I can meet her EN's till the cows come home, but if she just doesn't know HOW to meet my EN's what do I do, when I try to explain how she can, only to have her go on the defensive and believe she's failing at being a good wife...

Are you so sure about that?


You take offense at that? So, how is that working for you?

What would happen if you chose NOT to take offense? What might happen if you instead decided not to take it personally and entertain the idea that your wife may very well be sick in some way and cannot help or control or explain the way she feels? What if you said to her instead, �Wow, that must be really awful. You must be in a tremendous amount of pain.� No brainstorming solutions. No fearful angry outbursts. No judging. Just listening and reflecting back, letting it bounce off your heart instead of penetrating it. Because we can do that with our actions, even if our feelings aren�t there.


Of course she did. She is in withdrawl.


Now you�re just being sarcastic and difficult. So am I sometimes



And that kind of retaliation would be acceptable to you? I know you know that it�s not. Two wrongs don�t make a right. You�re making this about her, and you can�t control her. Look at what is and is not acceptable behavior for YOU regardless of what she does and says. You can decide not to withdraw. You can decide to ask her to stop her LB. You can set a predetermined boundary, not state an ultimatum, and you can let that boundary guide your actions when she LBs, instead of reacting to her LBs and contributing to the cycle of hurt and justification.


This statement (and also your original post) are a bit troubling to me with regard to her sudden shift. A lot of folks around here call it �rewriting history.� So it would be helpful to know a little bit more about your relationship history prior to marriage. What did it look like when you both were in love? Why did you get married? What is your sexual history, together and before you were together? Is it possible that she is in an affair?

The last thing any of us is thinking about when we are getting married and even when we are in marital conflict is �affair-proofing� our marriage. We believe that it can�t and won�t happen to us. But it can and it does. Your wife doesn�t care about affair-proofing her marriage right now because she likely doesn�t even want to be married right now and would love the justification of you having an affair to hang over your head and give you her �out.� Sick thinking. Remember the sick part. And remember that it is also possible to get well. That is what recovery is all about. Welcome!

I�ll bet a good quality MC would be able to guide her and motivate her to learn how to do this.


First of all, I don�t think you are actually meeting her EN. You are meeting the EN you THINK are most important to her, but you are probably missing the mark somewhere. My husband�s like that. He thinks that he gives and gives and gives. And he does. He meets my less intimate EN beautifully (for the most part). He gives me domestic help (ok, maybe not with the laundry!), he sometimes cooks, he helps around the house AS LONG AS HE�S ASKED (caps there to remind ME that if he�s not doing something, I need to ask for it!), he spends time with our kids (family commitment), he works as pretty much the sole financial provider and we have a beautiful home and everything we need, and a lot of what we want. He does not keep secrets from me. He too will do the flowers, give me pats on the back (admiration). But there is major lacking in the areas of non-sexual affection, conversation, and recreational companionship. Also in the SF department, but that�s a whole other story.

I suspect that what you are doing is meeting YOUR top needs. You sound like you are giving her admiration in spades. It probably is not at the top of her list, but definitely at the top of yours. It sounds also like you are a good domestic supporter. That may be important to her, but not as important as letting the house go for a bit and take a walk in the park together for the day instead. I�ll bet she craves affection as much as she is afraid of it for whatever reason.

The other thing you are doing is LBing. If your original post is any reflection, you do a LOT of LBing that you aren�t even aware of. So keep talking about the conflicts, and we will point them out, and then you can learn to do better.

You can meet her EN perfectly, but if you are LBing it will drain the bank faster than it will be replenished. When in doubt, pick up your socks, take out the trash, and don�t open your mouth

It is very easy to get discouraged by our spouses� behavior. But we need to remember that WE are the ones with the MB program. They don�t have it yet, and they don�t even want it and don�t think they need it. Since we are the ones who are here, we are the ones who bear the responsibility of carrying these tools into our marriage.

Here is what I am doing right now. Well, just one of the things. This is specifically to keep me from allowing resentment to build up, and that�s what I see in your posts right now � resentment.

I am using the Policy of Joint Agreement. Now, my husband doesn�t really understand the POJA. He doesn�t have to for me to use it though. Perfect example. This weekend he suggested that we both start playing his favorite video game together. He laid out the argument very well. He said it would be time spent together, he said that it�s just like him going to church with me, even though he would rather not sometimes. Bottom line is, I cannot enthusiastically agree to do video games. So I don�t do anything I can do enthusiastically. But on top of that, I�m not going to be totally difficult. I will offer plenty of alternatives. For example, the goal of playing video games together is to spend time together. Well, there are lots of other ways we can spend time together. He can pick one of those, preferably one that he can do enthusiastically.

POJA can be used by one partner without the other partner�s buy-in, because it is about the predetermined boundary that you set:

�I will not do anything in this relationship that I can�t do enthusiastically.�

The other thing I�ve done is drop (most of the time) my expectations of my husband, because expectations are just premeditated resentments. Instead, I make requests and give him the dignity of choosing. I remind myself that I am responsible for the action of asking, and not responsible for the outcome.

MrA...

Welcome to MB posting...glad you're here. Think is right about the LB...because it robs your own love bank, too, btw...because when you're disrespectful, you hurt yourself...you aren't living up to your code of respect...and it may make your focus even MORE on your wife's disrespect, instead.

Means it's doubles the bad feelings. Cut loose of that part, 'k? Eliminate those because they aren't who you are anyway. When you feel you've had enough (cumulative)...means you haven't been open and honest every step of the way. Also helps you see where you believe if only she'd change, your marriage would be great...and it isn't true. Seems that way, I know...still what you haven't been doing/aren't doing, matters as much, equally, as what she chooses to do and chooses not to do.

I promise.

You are as powerful, her equal in every way.

So...you haven't brought out the questionnaires (where you have your ENs filled out and her LB's filled out already), nor have you handed her the Recreational Enjoyment Inventory and excited said, "I can't wait to fall in love with you again like we were when we were dating. I miss that feeling so much."

Is that your goal, btw? To fall madly in love with each other? Begin with getting Dr. Harley's books (i.e., Fall in Love, Stay in Love) and reading them...sharing with her parts that spark you...resonate in you.

When she says hurtful statements, calmly reply, "Ouch!" and leave the room for five minutes. Then come back and say, "I heard you say that your family--me and the kids--are intolerable to you. That really hurts."

Then resume what you were doing. See, you speaking up (not refuting...O&H sharing in tiny bits to begin with) is also what's missing. As it happens. In the way a teammate, someone really committed to making the team win...would do.

Not tit for tat, not "You cause all my pain" either. Reasonable, helpful, supportive respect...healthy boundary enforcements.

The double-bind she puts herself in (take meds and be decent...which isn't true...or not take meds, have sex and rage) isn't yours. Recognize that's hers. Not YOUR choice as she states. Listen and repeat...

"I hear you see your life as two extremes, raging and non-asexual, or calm and asexual."

"I know you choose to act out your anger. I'm not afraid of you feeling anger...I do fear you acting it out. Your anger isn't an LB to me...it's the ways you act it out that withdraws from my love bank."

"When you say you're asexual, are you saying you have lied to me for nearly nine years, when I saw you acting as if you enjoyed SF, felt it as an act of our love?"

I separated these so they aren't said all at one time...and to make sure you see where you take on her statements as the truth instead of her truth. You can honor and respect her truth as hers and NOT war against it as fact, as the truth. You're angry and hurt from her actions, MrA...not from her beliefs, 'k?

We choose all of those...and every day, we can choose differently.

Make time for 15 hours of UA time and invite her, daily to participate...think of all the things when you were courting and newly married you did together and enjoyed. Then do those...RC is an awesome way to change our image of our partner from enemy to ally (and we are truly allies, just feels like enemies sometimes), and does recreate a lot of the attraction and love we once felt when we only saw our partner's best self.

Why do you have to lose, really, if you state your boundaries? That you do not want this marriage as it is today, do not want her unhappiness or abuse (for some of her statements are verbally abusive), and that your plan is to work on having a rocking great marriage in 18 months, by following the MB plan, going to the MB seminar, and changing your own actions, following the four rules of marriage...and ask her to join you.

Tell her you understand her frustration...that her IC (individual counseling) hasn't worked...not with meds or without. And that you support her and the marriage by not doing that anymore. Tell her that you believe in her, believe in her power, her choices. That you're coming to learn true respect (that each of you are truly equal, have your own "stuff" and that the actions you do can be from your commitment, not in reaction to your feelings).

Tell her how you're going to honor the marriage, even when from hurt and anger you don't feel like honoring her. That you, too, will stop yourself from love busting her, how you're eager to learn to really partner her in this marriage.

SF is how you feel really loved by her...the joining...it's a valid EN and you're most important one. You will, though, work on seeing more clearly all her acts of love, won't you? Won't remove it as your top EN, might reduce your resentment, as you see her really working on her part, her choice.

Because it is a choice you recognize. Feels like rejection, discounting and diminishing your union. Your feelings are valid...just doesn't make it the truth. Tell me if you're willing to work together towards this goal, including SF, beginning with just being together, playing together, coming to know each other new today or not, 'k?

Yes, she is attacking your marriage right now...don't fight against her...fight for the marriage. Maybe some new boundaries from you will help...that you won't use non-verbal signals to approach her for SF...hold yourself to stating when you want it, what you are doing (with the back rubs, etc.) to get it.

Hear yourself...and know that she can't tell, non-verbally, whether you are giving her affection or preparing her for sex. Understand your own acts of love and be radically honest. You might find that changing what you do changes everything.

Been my experience.

And you have to heal from her previous injuries, and she, from yours...you can heal together, with a plan...or you can divorce, and still have to heal, alone. Or continue to not heal and divorce. There's always a lot of choices when there seems to be only one.

LA

MRA, here is the problem right here. You don't spend enough time together and have fallen out of love. In order for a woman to enjoy sex with a man she must feel a) an emotional attachment and b) perceive a prospect of enjoyment.

And how does she come to FEEL an emotional attachment, you must spend a minimum of 15 hours a week together meeting THESE top 4 needs: sex, conversation, affection and RC, while avoiding lovebusters. I realize your wife is neglecting you and is extremely thoughtless, but this can change if she has the proper motivation. And I do think that motivation is your biggest problem. You have all the tools, you just have to motivate her to get on board.

These concepts DO NOT WORK if you are not spending AT LEAST 15 hours per week together of UA time. So, that is where I would focus all of your efforts: on motivating her to spend 15+ hrs per week with you.

My suggestion would be to arrange phone coaching with Steve Harley of Marriage Builders. He is sometimes very effective at motivating reluctant spouses. He doesn't coach couples in conflict together so you wouldn't have to get her agreement at first. After Steve talks to you alone and assesses your situation, he will tell you exactly what to say to get her on the phone with him. And then he will try and sell her on changing the marriage.

I know that I once in your wife's shoes in my last marriage and my H drove me nuts begging for sex all the time. The more he badgered, the more he pushed me away.

I often wonder how it would have turned out differently if someone had told me that the problem was that I had fallen out of love and that the solution was to fall in love again.

That is the route I would take if I were you, MrA. It really does work - and rather quickly - if you can get her on board with you. That is often motivation enough.

Mranderson, check out these articles by Dr Harley:

How to Overcome Sexual Aversion

How to Meet the Emotional Need for
Sexual Fulfillment (Part 1) <----a case study that resembles yours

thread about undivided attention

Just wanted to point out that if you W is on meds for depression they are very likely contributing to her lack of desire for S. She may be feeling guilty about it because you are doing the things she needs and she still is not interested.

It is a side effect of anti depressants. If she used to be interested but she isnt now try and remember if the problems started the same time as the pills if so then thats probably why she feels that way and she may not even realize it. Also if she is depressed please remember it's an illness that she has no control over.

She doesnt feel irritated by her home life because there is something wrong with it, she feels that way because she is ill. And the more unsupportive you are, the less you try to understand and help her cope, the worse that illness is going to get. I highly doubt her depression is situational, its very hard to diagnose depression since it comes in a large variety of forms. She may not have just simply "depression" she may be bi-polar or any number of more specialized illnesses that all have diffrent tratments, or they may have just not found the right pill yet.

Dont give up and dont let her give up either, keep going to new doctors until you find one that can help her, it usually takes a while. Would you feel the way you do about an unfilled need caused by an illness if she had cervical cancer and couldnt be intimate? I doubt it, and if she honestly depressed and on meds for it then its the same thing, its not something she can help.

Yet, you want her to "make love" to you when she doesn't feel like it. Don't you think she is sick of it? I assure you that she is. Just like you are daily growing a resentment for not getting your needs met, she is experiencing the same thing about sex. And it will get worse at this rate. The more non-reciprocated giving you do, the more resentment you will feel.

The solution is to fall in love again and to meet each others needs in a way that make you BOTH HAPPY and create emotional attachment. I know you meant well, but unfortunately all the pressure to get her to have sex with you has led to such a great aversion on her part that she probably associates her aversion with other interactions now.

Can you print up that article about sexual aversion and ask her if she can relate to it?

and this is where I'm confused at in regard to her "depression"...and i'm not minimizing her depression, if she truly is depressed...you hear of "functioning alcoholics"...people who can drink and drink, yet still function...I guess there's "functional depressed" people????, yet when you see the commercials for depression medication, you don't see an image of my wife...

in regard to cervical cancer, that's an illness i can see physically affecting a person...but this is different...she acts totally normal, does all the normal things and is very active in our community...i just don't get it.

is there a thing as "functional depression"? You'd think that IF she was even slightly depressed, after 3 years of care, they would've found the right pill by now...her doctor really has her on meds, b/c my wife wants to be on them and she flaunts that she's on meds to everybody to "tolerate" her life, which embarrasses me sometimes...it makes me feel like...I'm the problem in front of other people...

I really appreciate your insight, maybe depression affects people different ways...

Oh, my goodness, do you mean another woman might make you have an affair? You mean you have no control over it or no choice?


Be aware that when women (and men) fall out of love, their emotions often cause them to simply rewrite history. She may be saying she was never interested in the past, and she may never remember being interested in the past (so she's not lying), but she may be completely mistaken about what she remembers.


Sadly, she is not in love with you right now, and so she is not interested in the marriage. The marriage is likely a source of great pain to her. She probably feels like she wants to avoid it, and she's not likely to take any steps to protect it. Right now, you will have to do that.

Have you read about the three states of mind in marriage?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3605_state.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3610_state.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3615_state.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3620_state.html

Falling out of love is the most depressing thing in the world.

So you are saying that depression is not a �real� illness, like cancer? With all due respect, you ARE minimizing her depression with a statement like that.

People �function� with all sorts of illnesses, physical, mental and spiritual. The put on a good front. That actually is one of the �symptoms� of the disease for some people. It sure is for me.


Sometimes meds don�t work, especially with low-grade depression or situational depression.


Have you told your wife how her comments to other people cause your hurt and embarrassment? Just because she is �depressed� doesn�t mean she shouldn�t be held accountable for her hurtful actions. I�m not saying punishment. But making her aware that what she says affects you.

Listen to Markos; he is working this stuff hard with his wife and he knows what he is talking about. His thread is an excellent read.

This is a hard road you have chosen Mr. Anderson (I keep thinking about that guy in the Matrix!) But it is a worthwhile one and is better than the alternative.

unfortunately I can't diagnose depression, I'm not a medical doctor...I can't look at her and "see" depression or what I "think" depression looks like...I can "see" the effects of cancer, the chemo and radiation has on someone...

So you are saying there's a such a thing as "functional depression" or "situational depression"?????... we can have a great day, week or month...go camping, swimming, movies, date nights, outings with friends, do home projects together...ect...but she's so depressed that her life sucks, that she's still willing to enthusiastically participate in all the family activities, with us as a family and me as a couple? I don't get it...

maybe i need to do some more research on depression, because what I read online and what I see at home doesn't look like depression and her doctor tends to agree...

Honestly, I think when she says she needs meds to "tolerate me, the kids, the dog, the house...ect"...she doesn't know how to deal with the pressures of life effectively...do my kids get on my nerves...you bet, but I know how to control my emotions and realize they are just kids, being kids!...do I tolerate my wife with her annoying habits...yes, LOL and I love her and her annoying habits...a pill isn't going to solve everything.

There is absolutely situational depression. It's called "being sad about a life event". People can be happy, enjoying life, then wham! Something happens that makes them sad.

It sounds to me like your wife is a drug addict, if she says she needs pills to cope with life. Anti-anxiety drugs are especially enjoyable to take. There are lots of drugs that one can get high from. What is she taking, have you investigated the effects?

A great way to become more tolerant to pressure in life is to have a great loving relationship with one's spouse. Marriage Builders can help you to help her fall in love with you again.


You are right. But one thing that will really help her (and your kids) is for her to be head over heels in love with you again.

Have you read the Basic Concepts on this site, yet?

i really can't even tell you...i know she takes at least 5 pills a day and the newest is RITALIN (which is addictive)...she's tried through the day...yet she goes, goes, goes all day...