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_Larry_ #2321349 02/10/10 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by _Larry_
Nice window into her mind and mental processes. Sounds like she is very uncomfortable in the current situation where you own the moral high ground. Just a thought.

During the conversation, she also expressed concern about some women that I had mentioned to her in previous conversations. How my interactions with those women could easily lead to something else if I wasn't careful. I told her, and quite honestly too, that getting involved with any of those women anywhere past the "acquaintance" stage was simply not going to happen, as I really had no interest AT ALL in doing something like that. It wasn't about any expressed morality on my part. I simply wasn't interested, period. Still she acted unconvinced.

I think this is less about "moral high ground" and more about her being concerned that I will simply be more inclined to run off and indulge in an affair because of what she did to us and our M. It doesn't help that I feel at times (and expressed once or twice) that our M might have been a big error of judgment on my part; that I should have instead continued to walk away when she first cheated on me.

To be honest, I'm not sure what I'd do if a woman does come along and "blows my mind" like my FWW did when I first met her. Would I jump at the opportunity to start something fresh and new, without all the baggage that my FWW brought to our M? Or would I do the "right" thing by staying faithful to my M and my FWW?

Luckily the chances of me meeting "Miss Right #2" and having to experience such a situation are about the same as me winning the lottery three or more times in a row. I actually don't think about it unless someone brings the subject up. My FWW however is apparently a lot more worried than I am about that situation ever happening.


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Originally Posted by ManInMotion
To be honest, I'm not sure what I'd do if a woman does come along and "blows my mind" like my FWW did when I first met her. Would I jump at the opportunity to start something fresh and new, without all the baggage that my FWW brought to our M? Or would I do the "right" thing by staying faithful to my M and my FWW?

Luckily the chances of me meeting "Miss Right #2" and having to experience such a situation are about the same as me winning the lottery three or more times in a row. I actually don't think about it unless someone brings the subject up. My FWW however is apparently a lot more worried than I am about that situation ever happening.
Mim, I'm a bit surprised that you write like this after having been here for so long. Your wife is right to be worried about your falling for someone else, and not just because your commitment is low as a result of her affairs.

You must have read many times now that people often have affairs with unlikely OPs; people who are not terribly good looking, or who are older, overweight, less educated etc. People do not seem to confine affairs to someone who is their ideal partner. People on the brink of affairs often form an emotional connection, through conversation, with people with whom they have some connection, like a job. The emotional connection leads to some ENs being met, and enough deposits are made for feelings of love to ensue.

I don't know what kind of conversations you have with your female acquaintances, but you need to keep them very limited and public (i.e. no emails or coffee breaks). The fact that you are not interested in them now does not preclude finding a common interest, and from there an emotional connection, that leads to affair. This is all the more likely to happen since, it seems to me, your wife has not put a great deal of effort into nurturing you back into the marriage. If I read your situation correctly, your wife does not jump through hoops to compensate you for her affair and make your marriage a place that you do not want to leave. You are very vulnerable, so you need to make your boundaries cast-iron.

I admire your honesty for admitting you do not know what you would do if someone came along and blew your mind. However, do you not see that, in order to make such a statement, you must have be leaving the door open for someone to come along and do that. You must have rather shaky boundaries now; today. From what you have written, the only thing stopping your mind from being blown by someone else is that you haven't noticed the someone else yet.

I sympathise, Mim. I'm only writing this in the hope that you do NOT want to go down the affair road, with all the dishonour involved in that. It is not that you do not deserve a relationship with someone who blows your mind and who feels the same about you; it is that an affair is not the way to achieve that, and you do not want to become just like every unfaithful abuser out there.


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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Mim, I'm a bit surprised that you write like this after having been here for so long. Your wife is right to be worried about your falling for someone else, and not just because your commitment is low as a result of her affairs.

I'm not sure that's actually a bad thing, to be honest. Prior to her A, I wasn't concerned about my FWW doing something like that. She just didn't strike me as someone who would be so foolish as to risk job and family by engaging in an A with a young man reporting into her. Perhaps I may have been less complacent about meeting her ENs if I actually was concerned. Maybe if she's concerned about me going off somewhere to have my ENs met, she'll be less complacent about trying to meet them. I doubt that she's that concerned though, as this type of issue hardly ever comes up in our conversations.


Originally Posted by SugarCane
You must have read many times now that people often have affairs with unlikely OPs; people who are not terribly good looking, or who are older, overweight, less educated etc. People do not seem to confine affairs to someone who is their ideal partner. People on the brink of affairs often form an emotional connection, through conversation, with people with whom they have some connection, like a job. The emotional connection leads to some ENs being met, and enough deposits are made for feelings of love to ensue.

I understand what you're saying, SugarCane. I'm also quite aware of what my ENs are. They're very specific, and not that easy to meet smile. I'm also not the most approachable person. I'm pretty certain that the above scenario will never apply to me.


Originally Posted by SugarCane
I don't know what kind of conversations you have with your female acquaintances, but you need to keep them very limited and public (i.e. no emails or coffee breaks).

That's exactly how they remain. I'm not interested in pursuing them any further.


Originally Posted by SugarCane
This is all the more likely to happen since, it seems to me, your wife has not put a great deal of effort into nurturing you back into the marriage. If I read your situation correctly, your wife does not jump through hoops to compensate you for her affair and make your marriage a place that you do not want to leave. You are very vulnerable, so you need to make your boundaries cast-iron.

I wouldn't say that she hasn't made a great deal of effort. It's more like she's made a great deal of effort doing what she believes she needs to do, whether or not I'm in agreement. And when she's tried any suggestions from others, including myself, it's usually led to more resentment on her part than anything else, particularly if the suggestion did not have immediate positive results. At the moment we hardly engage in any sort of R talk. I let her do what she wants to do, and if I don't like it, I say so.


Originally Posted by SugarCane
I admire your honesty for admitting you do not know what you would do if someone came along and blew your mind. However, do you not see that, in order to make such a statement, you must have be leaving the door open for someone to come along and do that. You must have rather shaky boundaries now; today. From what you have written, the only thing stopping your mind from being blown by someone else is that you haven't noticed the someone else yet.

Not quite. I don't think I have "shaky boundaries". Certainly not anywhere near as shaky as some I've seen. I just know that I feel differently about my FWW than I did prior to her A, and I think that for the major part is what makes me wonder what I might do if "Miss Right #2" comes along.


Originally Posted by SugarCane
I sympathise, Mim. I'm only writing this in the hope that you do NOT want to go down the affair road, with all the dishonour involved in that. It is not that you do not deserve a relationship with someone who blows your mind and who feels the same about you; it is that an affair is not the way to achieve that, and you do not want to become just like every unfaithful abuser out there.

FWIW, in my society, guys are hardly looked at with dishonour if they get involved in an A. Just the opposite happens sometimes, in fact. In any case, what others might end up thinking of me is not one of the reasons that I'd not get involved in an A. What I might end up thinking about myself - that's what will likely stop me.


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MIM,

You know, I think you are missing an opportunity here. I agree with SC that you might be more vulnerable than you realize. However, I think you might be missing something that could lead to a better marriage with your W.

Let me conjecture a moment and then offer ideas based on that conjecture.

I am guessing your W is not very secure right now. She knows she blew by her own boundaries pretty badly. She knows that she has hurt you and her marriage pretty badly. I am guessing she thinks you view her as "damaged" goods. I am also guessing she, as do many WS or FWS, "projects" their own weaknesses on those closest to them. I am also guessing that does not have a lot of confidence in her attractiveness to you (emotionally or physically). She probably also interprets your normal and natural reticence to be as deeply/blindly in love with her as you not finding her as attractive.

Now, if this is how she sees things. Guess what she is going to see if you talk with other women? She is going to see a "competitor" or her "replacement". It is going to focus her anxieties about herself and make her more insecure.

Now you might say "fine, she deserves this and she should have anxieties", and you would be right to a point. However, if you want a good marriage you don't want to be married to a woman that is fighting with her own anxieties due to her failures in the past.

You also said she is sort of hit and miss about meeting your needs suggesting that while there may be emotional intimacy in your marriage it is not deep.

IF, and you can find this out by asking her, my speculations have any merit, then you need to sit down with her and hear how she sees herself and the world. YOu need to discuss how you see yourself and the world and how yousee her. YOu need to discuss what would help you see her in a light SHE WANTS YOU TO SEE HER. You might discuss ways that you could reduce her anxiety about herself and your marriage.

In my years of reading here, I have seen many times it is often the FWS that really lives in fear. It is the FWS that has huge anxiety issues and cannot forgive themselves. It is often the FWS that actually suffers as the FBS did when all of this mess started.

Some would say..."PERFECT", nothing could be more deserved. But, the fact is if YOU want a good marriage, this "revenge" will prevent it.

I'm thinking you are seeing her insecurities and you need to address them.

I'll leave you with this one last point which is what SC brought up...Don't get cocky! smile You know what I mean, you are vulnerable. But, I would guess you are even more vulnerable to your W if she sees what you need and provides it.

Somethings to think about.

God Bless,

JL

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Originally Posted by Just Learning
I am guessing your W is not very secure right now. She knows she blew by her own boundaries pretty badly. She knows that she has hurt you and her marriage pretty badly. I am guessing she thinks you view her as "damaged" goods.

You may be right on the "damaged goods" part. On the "secure" part, I'm not so sure. She already has expressed to me that she will have no trouble moving on if our M ends, and I think she meant it. That doesn't sound like the comments of someone who's insecure.


Originally Posted by Just Learning
I am also guessing she, as do many WS or FWS, "projects" their own weaknesses on those closest to them. I am also guessing that does not have a lot of confidence in her attractiveness to you (emotionally or physically).

If that's the case, she has a strange way of showing it! She's already expressed that she knows how attracted I am to her. At one point she indicated that it was one of the reasons why she didn't place as much confidence in my opinions about her because I was "biased"; basically hinting in her response that she gave precedence to similar favourable opinions uttered by other people because they weren't as biased as she thinks I am.


Originally Posted by Just Learning
Guess what she is going to see if you talk with other women? She is going to see a "competitor" or her "replacement". It is going to focus her anxieties about herself and make her more insecure.

Honestly, I don't know what could possibly be going on in her mind when she sees me talking with other women. It's really strange at times. For example, she expresses a lot more concern/annoyance over their possible intentions than she does over my own. Whether or not I'm even the slightest bit interested in the other woman under examination is basically a non-issue. If I really had to guess, I think her thinking would be more along the lines of "demonstrating by extrapolation" that I was also capable of doing what she did - get involved in an A.


Originally Posted by Just Learning
You also said she is sort of hit and miss about meeting your needs suggesting that while there may be emotional intimacy in your marriage it is not deep.

You'd be right in that regard. It certainly isn't as deep as it used to be, and perhaps even when I thought it was, I might have been deceiving myself. I'm not surprised - I really can't see myself being very emotionally intimate with someone who was able to deceive me the way she did. It's more self-protection than anything else. She needs to reveal herself to me a lot more than she's currently doing so I can establish a lot more trust in her, and that's basically not happening. So we coast along in our current state...


Originally Posted by Just Learning
I'll leave you with this one last point which is what SC brought up...Don't get cocky! smile

ROFL - moi? smile smile. Seriously, I've never really been that type when it comes to dating/relationship dynamics. I'm more the "guy on the sidelines, observing the game" type. That, combined with my "you'd better not mess with me" looks, keeps me safely out of trouble smile.

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I could be way off the mark but some of these things you're describing seem somewhat obvious to me, at least from a female perspective. I'll give it a shot - ignore if you want.
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
Originally Posted by Just Learning
I am guessing your W is not very secure right now. She knows she blew by her own boundaries pretty badly. She knows that she has hurt you and her marriage pretty badly. I am guessing she thinks you view her as "damaged" goods.

You may be right on the "damaged goods" part. On the "secure" part, I'm not so sure. She already has expressed to me that she will have no trouble moving on if our M ends, and I think she meant it. That doesn't sound like the utterings of someone who's insecure.
Only you heard the tone of voice, but I read it like more of a "dare" in a sense, and as such, a real sign of insecurity.

Quote
Originally Posted by Just Learning
I am also guessing she, as do many WS or FWS, "projects" their own weaknesses on those closest to them. I am also guessing that does not have a lot of confidence in her attractiveness to you (emotionally or physically).

If that's the case, she has a strange way of showing it! She's already expressed that she knows how attracted I am to her. At one point she indicated that it was one of the reasons why she didn't place as much confidence in my opinions about her because I was "biased"; basically hinting in her response that she gave precedence to similar favourable opinions uttered by other people because they weren't as biased as she thinks I am.
She doesn't know if you really feel what you are saying or if you are telling her what she thinks you want to hear. You may have done this in the past without realizing it. It's the old "do you think I look fat in these pants" problem. As a woman, we want the truth, but we also want it to be a positive truth. Often, the truth isn't positive and we know that. But I'm sure you've said she looks fine before as well.

Quote
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Guess what she is going to see if you talk with other women? She is going to see a "competitor" or her "replacement". It is going to focus her anxieties about herself and make her more insecure.

Honestly, I don't know what could possibly be going on in her mind when she sees me talking with other women. It's really strange at times. For example, she expresses a lot more concern/annoyance over their possible intentions than she does over my own. Whether or not I'm even the slightest bit interested in the other woman under examination is basically a non-issue. If I really had to guess, I think her thinking would be more along the lines of "demonstrating by extrapolation" that I was also capable of doing what she did - get involved in an A.
Women are far worse than men in terms of general dishonesty and deception. It begins when they are little girls - their playground fights may not have the violence of boys but they far exceed them in cruelty. As a former wayward female herself, she knows other women can't be trusted. I don't trust other women, either.

Quote
Originally Posted by Just Learning
You also said she is sort of hit and miss about meeting your needs suggesting that while there may be emotional intimacy in your marriage it is not deep.

You'd be right in that regard. It certainly isn't as deep as it used to be, and perhaps even when I thought it was, I might have been deceiving myself. I'm not surprised - I really can't see myself being very emotionally intimate with someone who was able to deceive me the way she did. It's more self-protection than anything else. She needs to reveal herself to me a lot more than she's currently doing so I can establish a lot more trust in her, and that's basically not happening. So we coast along in our current state...
I hope you can grow out of this. But I don't know what to say.


Quote
Originally Posted by Just Learning
I'll leave you with this one last point which is what SC brought up...Don't get cocky! smile

ROFL - moi? smile smile. Seriously, I've never really been that type when it comes to dating/relationship dynamics. I'm more the "guy on the sidelines, observing the game" type. That, combined with my "you'd better mess with me" looks, keeps me safely out of trouble smile.
And this is FURTHER reason not to trust other women!!!!!

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MiM,

You said
Quote
Honestly, I don't know what could possibly be going on in her mind when she sees me talking with other women. It's really strange at times. For example, she expresses a lot more concern/annoyance over their possible intentions than she does over my own. Whether or not I'm even the slightest bit interested in the other woman under examination is basically a non-issue. If I really had to guess, I think her thinking would be more along the lines of "demonstrating by extrapolation" that I was also capable of doing what she did - get involved in an A.


Quote
You'd be right in that regard. It certainly isn't as deep as it used to be, and perhaps even when I thought it was, I might have been deceiving myself. I'm not surprised - I really can't see myself being very emotionally intimate with someone who was able to deceive me the way she did. It's more self-protection than anything else. She needs to reveal herself to me a lot more than she's currently doing so I can establish a lot more trust in her, and that's basically not happening. So we coast along in our current state...


I think your answers reflect what I am saying. This is an opportunity for you to come in under the radar and find out what she is thinking and seeing without discussing the A. You will learn more and it will help you to do so.

As for her
Quote
You may be right on the "damaged goods" part. On the "secure" part, I'm not so sure. She already has expressed to me that she will have no trouble moving on if our M ends, and I think she meant it. That doesn't sound like the comments of someone who's insecure.
I think this indicates a defensive position based on lack of confidence in herself and an act of insecurity. People don't say that if they are secure in the marriage or their own skin. They do say it if they are trying to protect themselves.

You could ask here about her desire to remain in the marriage. And you could express your own insecurity about your lack of understanding about her thinking process and how she sees things.

If she can simply take or leave the marriage, then she is in withdrawal and that needs to be addressed.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

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Originally Posted by Tabby1
Only you heard the tone of voice, but I read it like more of a "dare" in a sense, and as such, a real sign of insecurity.

Yes, it does read that way, but I can assure you that the tone definitely was not that of a dare. I'd asked the question, and she answered plainly and frankly.

Originally Posted by Tabby1
She doesn't know if you really feel what you are saying or if you are telling her what she thinks you want to hear.

Um, I think she knows. Listen, she has to do everything short of beat me off with a stick to keep me away from her at times smile. In fact, she's expressed the concern that I might only be interested in her physically. Not true, of course, but I can see why she'd think so at times.



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Originally Posted by Just Learning
You could ask here about her desire to remain in the marriage.

Now, it looks like you want to get me into trouble! If I ask her a question like that, it will likely turn out to be another "dance with the bramble-bush". That's because she'd likely immediately assume that the only reason I'm asking that is because I don't want to stay in the M and I just don't want to tell her that. That I'm just looking for the easy way out by trying to get her to admit that she's not interested. And she'll start asking questions and pushing for answers along that line. I know my FWW well enough to know what happens when I pose questions like that, LOL.


Originally Posted by Just Learning
And you could express your own insecurity about your lack of understanding about her thinking process and how she sees things.

BTDT. See "dance with the bramble-bush" comment above for the typical results of such conversations.

It seems the only thing that works is either gauge her by her actions, or wait until SHE brings up such subjects for discussion. - which rarely happens.


Originally Posted by Just Learning
If she can simply take or leave the marriage, then she is in withdrawal and that needs to be addressed.

Her actions suggest that she's somewhat interested in keeping the M (most likely for the childrens' sake, but there could be other reasons), but she's not "in love" with me.


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MIM,

Quote
Her actions suggest that she's somewhat interested in keeping the M (most likely for the childrens' sake, but there could be other reasons), but she's not "in love" with me.


And you are staying in this marriage, because...?

My suggestion was to address her concerns about other woman, which should not be a dance with the bramble bush as you put it. That was the point of this being an opportunity to come in under the radar screen.

JL

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Originally Posted by Just Learning
And you are staying in this marriage, because...?

..because there's no better option at this point.


Originally Posted by Just Learning
My suggestion was to address her concerns about other woman, which should not be a dance with the bramble bush as you put it. That was the point of this being an opportunity to come in under the radar screen.

Ok, I'll give it a try. If I return later with cuts 'n' bruises and pieces of bramble sticking out of my hair, you'll know what happened smile.


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Quote
she's expressed the concern that I might only be interested in her physically.

And where is it written that's a bad thing?

Okay, in our broad culture, women dress to impress other women, who they correctly understand are far more dangerous predators than the males. So it is said. . .

AND they often dress to lure a male in whom they have an interest emphasizing their physical attributes.

Yet there is this thing where we are supposed to not just love them for their how attractive they are.

Heck, send her a pajamagram.

Larry


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Ok, I'll give it a try. If I return later with cuts 'n' bruises and pieces of bramble sticking out of my hair, you'll know what happened


Bruises and brambles will be duly noted and logged, as you wish. smile

Best of luck, MIM

JL

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Originally Posted by Just Learning
Best of luck, MIM

Well, the conversation got nowhere. I asked, and the response was along the lines of "well, I just feel that way, and no, I don't know why I feel that way, I just do".

I didn't press the subject. I've been down that road already, and I know where it ends - in a wrestling match with a bramble-bush.

So, it's back to coasting along for the moment...




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Apparently a few persons have found out about my FWW's cheating and are using this information in an attempt to publicly humiliate me. I'm curious as who how other BSs on this forum have handled such situations.



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MIM,

In reality YOU have done nothing wrong, and have no reason to be shamed by your wifes behavior. You stood by your family while suffering great internal pain, the truth will eventually get out there is no way to avoid it, be glad you know who knows.

Gamma

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Originally Posted by ManInMotion
Apparently a few persons have found out about my FWW's cheating and are using this information in an attempt to publicly humiliate me. I'm curious as who how other BSs on this forum have handled such situations.

Those with private lives have probably long since exposed the affair.

I have long felt that you were a public figure of some sort, in some location. This means target in many places.

I suspect you have the reputation as a "Stand up" guy who can be trusted.

If what I believe is true, then you need "Spin" control. Without knowing all the details, I cannot help you. Perhaps others can. Much would depend on who you are, the culture of where you live, who your enemies are, and the like.

The devil is in the details as Dic*k Morris is fond of saying. I would guess you know who he is.

Larry

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Let's say you are the Prime Minister of a small country in the Indian Ocean, for example.

"I am a public person. Everything I do, say, or believe is subject to public examination. It has come to my attention that certain people are attempting to discredit me by exposing the so-called details of something they say my wife did many years ago. That they would do this says more about their lack of morals, ethics and integrity than it does about my wife or me."

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It depends...sometimes ignore, other times...if you have ammo to shoot down the ones squawking - pull the trigger, if some one is approaching you in a nasty way, tell them you hope they do the same for the cheaters in their own family. flirt


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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MiM,

You stated
Quote
Apparently a few persons have found out about my FWW's cheating and are using this information in an attempt to publicly humiliate me.


I am reminded of a campaign for Gov. in the crazy state of CA. Which I will add is not " a state of mind" as Texas likes to say, but a state out of its mind as I like to say. smile

It seems we had a man running for office who was an international champion body builder and yes even starred in a few movies MrRollieEyes. He was being interrogated by the press about his behavior back in his 20's on Venice beach. Even an interview he gave to a "men's magazine back in the day.

His response was was something like the following.

I was in my 20's, I was a champion body builder, I was single, there were many women running around in tiny bikinis...do I look stupid?

That was really the end of that topic for the whole election.

MiM if I were your "campaign" manager I would tell you to say:

"I am an honest man. I have a family I love very much. I took a vow when I married and I entend to do my best to fulfill it. Do you have a problem with that?"

I think that would end any further conversatons.

Just a thought.

JL

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