...we've been in marriage counseling since the issue with SF developed with two different counselors and my Pastor (who suggested the therapist we are currently seeing now).

I found MB's back in December...printed out the EN's questionnaire and asked her to look at it and fill it out...one look at the questionnaire turned her off...why? because the first two listed were "affection" and "sexual fulfillment" and her immediate response was..."a man must have developed this..." and she put it down.

i told her it's not about MY needs, that I want to get an idea of what HER needs are...that my desire is to meet those needs, as they may have changed over the years...Since I found MB's I was thinking that somewhere I dropped the ball meeting her EN's...

Then she told me, that she doesn't get the big deal I make about SF...she seriously doesn't believe that SF is a valid need, only a need to "release" that ALL men need and that she doesn't desire to be that person...that formerly "submissive" person that she had become.

this is totally new behavior for her...and it's not like I beg her for SF...in the past we would have sex once a week, and every now and then twice a week and I was satisfied with that...i'm not a sex junkie, i enjoy that intimate alone time with her...that connection...

our counselor has told me in our private session, that she has heard nothing from my wife (and my wife is VERY opinionated!!!) that has raised any red flags that I'm a bad husband or not meeting her needs...my wife is just "angry" for some reason that she hadn't been able to identify.

a lot may have to do with herself image...when i met her she wanted to be a doctor, well, she's not a doctor, but a SAHM...it was a "choice" she made...not my fault. and now 13 years later she's found herself in a SAHM role, playing the "submissive" wife to her husband....and it's not like i take advantage of that...i'm not, nor ever been controlling or over-bearing...she has a life outside our home...friends, mom's groups, church groups, she's very active and stays busy and is taking online classes for a degree.

I don't know if it's a "control" issue for her now...her being able to assert some kind of authority in regard to when and IF she engages in SF with me...if it's a passive aggressiveness that she's now developed, by somehow blaming me that her dream to be a doctor was ruined by meeting me?

i'm tired of unpacking what can be the problem...it's wearing me out...when i hear from her, that i'm a great husband to her, but she just doesn't know how to mentally connect with me on that intimate level, when in the past she thought it was just what married women do for their husbands, b/c men need that sexual release.

thanks for the links...i'll go back through the material or maybe i'll have to schedule something with the Harley's

Your wife suffers from the same disease I have.

It's called "Refuses To Accept Life On Life's Terms."

And it is absolutely a disease.

There is no cure. But there is recovery from it. But only if she wants it.

It's not your fault. But you can make it worse. In fact, it is contagious. Simply by living with her you will begin to have some of the same symptoms of "Refuses To Accept Life On Life's Terms." One of the key symptoms is believing you can control things you can't control. Like your emotions. Other symptoms include self-righteousness, anger, justification, withdrawl, martyrdom, people-pleasing, perfectionism, and denial. Especially denial.

So you probably have this disease yourself. It's perhaps not the same stage as hers. But trust me when I say that it will get progressively worse for both of you if it is not arrested. And since you are the one who is here, you are the one who has to go first. If you find recovery from "Refusing To Accept Life On Life's Terms," she may also. And she may not. But one thing is certain, you can find happiness and peace in your life and in your family even if she doesn't.

We can call this thing depression. We can call it any name we want. We can believe that I just made this all up and that it is complete nonsense and that she just needs to snap out of it. But she won't because she is in the grip of something very powerful that a doctor can't fix with a pill, and that she can't fix with the force of her will. Because if she could, she would.

yes i have...found the site this past December...asked her to fill out the EN's questionnaire, she was really turned off by the "sexual fulfillment" EN...stated..."a man must've came up with that!"

after she didn't see a need to fill out the questionnaire, I figured I could still work the process alone...so I laid off the SF initiation before Christmas...I've been meeting her needs per the MB process...we've been intimate one time since mid december...January 29th we went to a birthday party and had some to drink, got home and she practically raped me...of course I didn't fight it...

still i didn't re-initiate SF after...even though I was thinking maybe she was over whatever hang-up it was...but she never initiated...

we went into our 40 day fast before Easter...I really poured on the EN's for her...my goal was to re-initiate SF after Easter...guess what...no go...

so i got frustrated with it, i'm human...since December i've been doing what I can to meet her EN's...and to be rejected after 4 and a half months is a little dishearting.

a few years ago, we had a friend that confided in us, that he hadn't had sex with his wife in over a year...i told him to seek counseling...my wife told him that no wife should deny her husband...imagine that coming from her...

MrA, did you read my post about getting marriage counseling with the HARLEYS? Can you please read my post again and respond? I think that counseling with traditional counselors is a waste of time and you would probably do better getting a pedicure. That is why I suggested trying something different this time.

The solution is to motivate her to do the things that will make falling in love possible. For example, this program doesn't even work if you dont spend 15+ hours a week meeting 4 specific needs. So all the need meetin in the world will not overcome that. The solution is to fall in love but I already wrote that.

My pastors suggested a counselor, too. She was awful. We found another counselor in the area who was somewhat decent, but it wasn't enough.

I'm in regular consultation with one of my pastors who thinks the Marriage Builders program we are working now is great!

ok, thanks...that made a lot of sense, now that you've put it that way...she has stated she wishes she could "snap out of it"...whatever "it" is...and hopes that something she hears in therapy will give her a jolt...

so from a personal perspective, assuming you are dealing with this disease and it's working for you...what advice can you give me? As a man, I tend to want to "help" or rescue my wife from this, and not stand by and watch and let it drag me into despair too...

I hear you melody and have actually printed off the links to review later...

I know you can't put a price tag on a marriage, but we live on a single income...the therapy we are in now is covered by insurance and i can use my flex account to cover the co-pay...

I'd love to call the Harley's, but only if there's a way that his phone consultations were somehow covered by my flex medical spending account...maybe i could email him and enquire, you think?

If not, I'll seriously need to save up the cash and I'd like for my wife to get familiar with MB's and be ready to buy into the concept...I know you say that Mr. Harley can get her to buy into this, but my wife is in a state of mind that she can't explain how she got there...

I just want to add my 2c in on the depression thing.

I've lived with low-level depression most of my life. It's part of the coping mechanism that I summon up enough energy to put on a front for the things that HAVE TO BE DONE like the kids' school activities, church, work, etc. and the end result is that I have even less energy to deal with the things at home.

When I had serious post-partum depression, my OB/GYN explained depression and how the meds would help me wonderfully: he said that as the depression deepens, one's tolerance for day-to-day "B.S." lessens and lessens, and the meds help you get your tolerance level back up to something resembling normal. This was **SO TRUE** for me.

Something like problems with my marriage, PPD, a friend betraying me, or a physical illness will send me into a spiral and I just can't *deal*. The kids' bickering or otherwise making noise will absolutely send me around the bend, my H asking me if dinner's ready in an absolutely innocent way will come across to me like an accusation that I'm a horrid person who's lazing about all day. My ability to cope goes to a negative rating.

Some meds have helped, some haven't. Some have made me feel numb and I hated it and wouldn't take them. Some have been useless. All have adversely affected my sex drive, as if it wasn't already depressed along with everything else.

To anyone who doesn't know me, looking in, I have it all together. I look like the Superwoman, juggling everything and able to handle everything. I'm cool in a crisis, and frequently am the go-to person for people in my life. But when you really get to know me, you realize how much of this I'm forcing through what feels like the muck on the surface of a pond and it's thicker some days than others.

Therapy is helping. Learning to set and enforce healthy boundaries is helping. Finding a good med is helping. Getty my husband on board to understand what this means for me and for us, and developing a language between us so I can let him know what's going on with me on a given day helps. There is no one answer for most people battling depression, it takes a multi-pronged effort to be successful in managing it. Because it's managed, not cured for the most part.

Your wife sounds like she's struggling with a lot, I encourage you to become an advocate for her. She probably feels like you're not on her side right now.

I'd worry about the ritalin, if she's getting an "upper" reaction from it, she doesn't need to be on it. One of the definitive ways to know if someone truly has ADD is that ritalin calms them down. It's speed. People with ADD/ADHD have a different brain chemistry and it acts like a depressant for them, slows them down so they can focus. For "neurotypicals", it acts like the amphetamine it is. For a depressive, speed is highly addictive both physically but more importantly emotionally. We feel almost normal on it, but it also burns us out. Baaaaad stuff. Be sure her doc knows what her reaction has been to it.

Good luck, I hope things turn up for you.

But how valuable is counseling that is covered by insurance if it DOESN'T WORK? How much are you saving then? Just because something is FREE does not mean it has any value. If traditional marriage counseling has an 84% failure rate and you already KNOW it has availed you absolutely nothing, doesn't it make sense to try something that actually WORKS? The Harleys can often do in 2 sessions what most marriage counselors can never do. They don't waste your time talking about feelings, they get right down to brass tacks and set you on a PLAN to turn your marriage around.


I realize your wife is withdrawn, that is the WHOLE REASON I am recommending you counsel with Steve. She is not likely to buy into anything that *YOU* suggest, that is why I am suggesting you get STEVE to get her buy in. Your wife does not need to "explain how she got here." She needs to be motivated to work on her marriage. That is what Steve can do potentially.

I'm not very good with advice. You know yourself and your situation best.

However, I believe that "helping" and "rescuing" add to the problem. If people had stopped rescuing me a long time ago and let me suffer the painful consequences of my actions instead of giving me a nice soft cushion to fall on time after time after time I might have gotten help a lot sooner. It's still very hard for me because most of the people in my life DO still want to rescue me and I have to fight the temptation to let them.

People in my life have given me so much unsolicited help that I don't know how to ask for help, literally. So if I offer any advice to you, it would be do not assume you know what is berst for her and do it without asking first. Let her ask you for help instead.

I think there is a certain amount of sitting by and watching involved. But you do not have to get pulled into the despairyourself. That's where you focus on yourself, on your own lack of acceptance and your own character defects and strengths, look at your own boundaries and enforce them. Protect yourself from the damage she may be causing, because you have to power to protect yourself.

And listen to Melody Lane. She knows her stuff.

mr_a, another site I'd like to recommend is FlyLady.net. I think a lot of us have had times in our lives where we overwhelm ourselves with scattered instead of focused activity, because we don't know how to get from where we are to where we want to be. I encourage you to read about "Franny" over there and learn more about where the starting point is and how simple it is to get on the path off that road.

I think you came to the right place. Dr. H's concepts can help you get the domestic responsibilities, finances, recreation, everything in order in a way that's special and meaningful to both of you. You can do this!

What good is that if the therapy that is covered isn't any good?

The concepts on this site are all completely free. For ZERO dollars and some time, you can read through the ENTIRE "Basic Concepts" section above, then the "Q&A Columns," then the "Articles."

Here are the links for your convenience in case you are not motivated enough to scroll to the top of the screen and click them.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5000_qa.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8100_article.html

If you were to just read all of this, you would probably know a million times more than your therapist about how to save marriages! And it's free!

If you wanted to really become an expert, you could purchase (or get from your library), these three books: Fall in Love, Stay in Love; His Needs, Her Needs; and Love Busters. This would cost only a minimum investment (less than $15 a book ... they are for sale on this site's bookstore for less than retail price with cheap and fast shipping). They will go into far more detail about how this program works. All this probably costs less than your copay for the therapist who probably doesn't counsel with these concepts.

Please, PLEASE check these out:
* Romantic Love: Is it a Realistic Goal for Marriage Therapy? (What this program offers that traditional counseling does not ... turns out it's probably the solution to your wife's depression.)
* How To Find A Good Marriage Counselor (Read this description of what a good marriage counselor should do, just in the first two sessions. I'll bet you've never seen a counselor do this.)
* The Coach (Coaching, not counseling. There is a difference. Read this if you like sports, especially golf.)
* What is Marriage Coaching?

Personally, I got a special credit card just for Marriage Builders expenses. I couldn't afford to wait to save up for it. It's the only credit card I have. I may pay it off for the rest of my life. If I do, it'll be worth it. But I doubt that. The Marriage Builders coaching center tends to train people much more quickly than marriage counselors, who tend to keep people in perpetual therapy for months and months and months.


Next year cancel the flex medical spending account, keep the money, and spend it on the Harley's. At the end of this year, check and see how much money you lose in this account.


Same here.

I would actually suggest Jennifer for reaching a withdrawn wife. Remember the wife's reaction to the ENQ? "A man must have written this". She's not going to be receptive to a male counselor telling her that SF is a valid EN, but Jennifer should be able to reach her.

And yes there's no reason your FSA can't reimburse you for the cost of counseling services. Mine does.

thanks for the links...i know they're free...i discovered MB's back in mid-December and took me almost a week just to digest the information...

MB's is really a simple concept, and if my wife is depressed, and irritability is a "symptom" of her depression...what can MB's do to ensure that I, the kids, the dog and her friends stop doing little things that irritate her? Nothing......We all do little things that irritate people, but some people know how to process it and overlook...trust me, my wife can find something that YOU do that can irritate her...LOL

First my wife needs to get her depression under control by finding the right combination of medication that works for her...once she can get this under control, I believe we can start working on us as a couple.

All I can do is continue to use MB's for my own personal use...watch my true "Love Busters"...the one's I can control based on my own emotions and the other "little" irritable things I may do that irritate her (and I can list numerous things that I've gotten yelled at for no reason...not to mention our kids)...I'll have to turn the other cheek and just not engage her...

Thanks to "thinkinitthru66", "the AntiChick" and "ash1220"...I've realized that I really haven't been the compassionate, caring and understanding husband I should've been in regard to her depression...I realize now looking back that when she wanted a separation, she was off her medications and the issue of SF came about when she was going back on her medication...IF I was in tune to her depression and understood it, instead of ignoring it and taking it personal...I probably wouldn't be where I am today...

Mranderson, I suspect part of her depression stems from an unhappy marriage. Just ask yourself how "depressed" you are when you are madly in love, in a passionate romance? I don't know about you, but I find it pretty hard to feel down when I am in a great romance. Having a great marriage is a quality of life predictor that affects all other areas of my life. Depressing marriage, depressing life.

I think fixing your marriage first can have a major impact on her mental state. I suspect she feels trapped in a hopeless marriage and that would depress anyone. Getting some real help might give her some hope.

In Dr Harleys book, Effective Marriage Counseling, he usually only counsels a couple 8 times before the goal is met and he cuts them loose. They don't believe in perpetual counseling, like Markos said.

bitbucket had a great point about counseling with Dr. Chalmers.

Thats a very scary plan, MrA. It won't be too long before there is absolutely no love left in your marriage if you follow this strategy. Is the plan to tolerate her abuse until you grow to hate her? Or worse, have an affair?

Nope, that's not all you can do.


Did the Man who spoke the phrase "turn the other cheek" also teach this strategy of abdicating leadership in your family and not engaging your wife?


I wish you'd add MelodyLane to that list, and put her at the front. Please go back up and look at the names of all four of these people (including MelodyLane). Look below the names. You will see the date they joined Marriage Builders and the number of posts they have made. Compare the three you listed to MelodyLane.

I am not knocking those three, but what I want you to see is that MelodyLane is a long time Marriage Builders learner and teacher. She has seen your situation many times before. She has seen people do what you are saying before. She has seen it not work before.

She has also seen people turn their marriages around. She knows what they did differently.

If you love your wife and want her to be happy, will you please listen closely to MelodyLane?

It took 4 pages and some members responding who know firsthand of what depression is to get me to understand that I may need to research depression and what it is.

I'm not discounting the advice of others...but depression from what I've learned is a serious illness and I suspect there's a lot of divorces on the books due to this illness alone and the lack of understanding it and managing it.

My wife's mom is Bi-Polar, with Bi-Polar there are "peaks" and "valleys"...She can fall in love and be all giddy at a "peak" and then be stuck in bed depressed during a "valley"...and this isn't triggered by a marriage that is in failure...she's been divorced 6 times...she's been on meds for the past 12 years and has since been married for 6 years...a record for her.

My wife is VERY opinionated and isn't shy about letting you or the world know how she feels...yet in discussing things with her privately and in counseling, there's nothing she can pinpoint specifically that I'm doing that makes her unhappy... it's just that little things people do "irritate" her and she doesn't know how to deal with it...

But, I'll say...looking back, I made things worse, by not understanding her depression by "Love Busting" when I wasn't understanding...when she was going back on her medication that was not making her feel good or attractive...at the time I was pushing for SF and her saying no...I was taking it personal. If I would've understood what she was going through, I would've backed off and been more understanding...but I didn't.

I believe depression IS a chemical imbalance and regardless of what state a person with this imbalance is in, within their marriage, depression can take hold of the person...

There's a difference between being down and feeling the blues or losing a loved one to cancer and being depressed...most people like myself, can get depressed and after a few days...a week or two, bounce back. Clinical depression isn't the same...what I'm finding out...