back to my side. i just want to encourage him

Well, I didn't exactly mean YOU were the hammer although I know you can be one if provoked He is his own hammer at times and fears that one will be exercised on him if he says certain things. Maybe by you or by himself. That is a weird feeling, so I have been told by waywards.

In other words, he opens his mouth and says something, then he wants to kick his own a@@ for saying it. Or hit himself with the stupid sign he was hauling around at the time.

Another dumb thought that WS has is that he wants to "protect" the BS by leaving out really hurtful stuff.

They don't understand that just makes it worse. But they can learn. And some do. papa seems real interested in learning and that is a good thing. So do you and that is just as good, maybe better. Mom is the heart and soul of a family, right? So the more instruction manuals she reads to learn how to be a really good one, like reading a cookbook, the better she can do. . .

Larry

note - a WS can fear being open and honest because the response they get wil assume they are hiding something...

For instance - I spoke to one of my sons friends parents...a single man - who my H swears is attracted to me. I was arranging a sleep over for the boys. I hesitated to tellhim about conversation not because I did anything wrong...but because I was worried my H would take what I told him and twist it to me something else entirely. So I started my statement with "please dont twist what I am about to tell you and make it mean something it doesnt - and then told him" He demanding to know what I was hiding...i was fearful to tell him the conversation so I MUST be hiding something...he knows I am...just tell him etc.

Even when a WS is saying something completely innocent it can trigger the BS and set something off so you get to a point where your afraid to say anything on any topic...ever. For fear it can have a double meaning that you didnt intend.

e.g. I wanted to buy some "pure irish butter"
at supermarket...never had it before. he wanted to know why we cant have normal butter. I said "I am curious - I like to try new things" I was talking about BUTTER...he said - thats what got you in trouble before...trying new things.

Mama, you should be careful about "what was he thinking" type of questions since these may very well be Love Busters (LB) in the form of a Disrespectful Judgments (DJ).

Steve Harley coached Rizos and me through the process of understanding the details of the A. I can tell you that SH made very clear that questions such as "what was she thinking" or "why" were off limits. The reason is that the WHY and "what was she thinking" is the same for all As so there's no need to try to get an explanation for your case. SH explained the WHY of the A and then Rizos and I discussed it until we both understood the concept. By understanding the WHY of As, we were ready to get into the WHAT without drifting into WHY questions.

So, what you need to get from Papa is specific questions about when, where, who, how, what, methods (email, sms, game, IM). Just facts - no subjective questions. This should be done as an information gathering process. You just make questions like a reporter and stay away from opinions. It should be conducted in a monotone way with the objective to know how the A was executed so that you can both protect each other in the future. You want to keep this conversation on point and avoid LBs.

BTW, I still think you should both stay away from each other's threads to avoid LBing each other.

--ElCamino72

I asked mamasita to stop posting in this thread today. Not because she had said anything bad, but because its been said over and over. It seems like a good idea. I will also continue to try and not post over there, although it seems like her thread people keep asking for my input. If I feel like that I will add it here or something.

I have been giving everything that everyone has been saying some serious thought. It has been helping. Cant get to explaining what I have been taking away from the advice and so on right now. I am a bit under the weather today, just too much stuff going on.

Today the His Needs, Her Needs book showed up, and mamasita is busy reading that. Also its monday, I have been trying to work. Some of my projects have been slipping a little behind. Not had much motivation to sit down and post anything. I need to focus on getting my work done, the house clean and then spending time with the kids. If I have time after that I will continue posting.

I usually learn well from my failures. In this case, it has been a poor teacher. Your failures have been a terrific teacher. You have ignored the lessons. Your choice has been to hide your face from them, instead to blame your childhood, your alcohol, your pills.....and not your SELF. This, grasshopper, IS the lesson.

I appreciate the insight.

I have to learn how to own my decisions I think. I constantly, am not doing that. True. Damage control, at least thats what I guess it would be called. Damage control has gotten you nowhere. You must have noticed, by now, that the damage has ACCUMULATED, and has in no way been "controlled". Your term for "lie" is "damage control". You lose. Mama loses. Focus instead on being open, and there is NO MORE DAMAGE. Life will no longer suck. I think I do it sort of automatically. Strange - this is absolutely the most honest and insightful thing you have written so far. You are most correct in this statement, Papa. Kudos. Because I didnt really look at it that way when I wrote it. There are always these reasons, and conditions that things happen in.. and I spend way to much time on explaining those parts. Take the automatic off. The very next time you go for the excuse, for that extra explanation - think deeply and then take 15 seconds to really explore what the answer REALLY is. Because it is in those 15 seconds you will find what you seek - truth - and an understanding of who you are and what motivates you. Your change will actually come in small increments of those 15 seconds, piled one on top of the other.

This seems like a really hard thing to change, I need to think about this. It is easy to change. Tell Mama that she needs to make you take 15 seconds to answer. To take that time to tell the truth - to prepare YOUR OWN MIND and HEART to hear it from your own lips. It will be new, and within about three weeks, your lips will want to rush to speak it always.

I have asked her to write down the questions she has, we have a notebook that I started. She can write in it. It was supposed to be the story, but it hasnt gotten very far yet. This was my attempt at finding a common ground to write this stuff down, before we came here. I found it very difficult to write about, and now I am very happy that we have been spending time on the tools here, and also posting etc. Because it is already helping. A hard way to start - with someone like me kicking your butt. Oh well, I make good money for this.

I will also start to reiterate each affair in full, this needs to happen until its all out there. I have been avoiding it, thats what defensive means, at least imho a good defense. The time to defend is over. There is NO DEFENSE, Papa. None. You screwed up. Confess, take your lumps like a man, and change your life. The most courageous thing a man can do is admit his mistakes and rise up to become something better. However, in this case avoiding it is the last thing I want. I want to dive head first and not come up until this is all clear to her. My minimizing is the issue. I like this - that you can SEE that minimizing it is an issue. You cannot in any way minimize what you have done. That's like saying, "Oh, that nuclear bomb didn't REALLY do much damage - oh, did I drop THREE??? More???? Well, it's not THAT bad."

I will have to learn to let my defenses down, I dont want this to fail. This is another very honest statement - I like this. I'll bet this was hard for you to say, yet, somehow, you probably feel very good now that you did.


You have actually listened, Papa. A very good start to your long journey.


The idea of the notebook is a good one. Keep that for each other. Keep posting. Listen to the men on the boards, because they know what they are saying. Read the threads, even when it doesn't seem like they might fit your own situation. You can learn from others - how to talk about your feelings, especially. You need to do that, in order to let Mama know what you were doing, what you were thinking, and where your mind and heart are now. That's very important. She has to have reassurance that what you say today is HONEST - and if you cannot talk about your heart, then you cannot give her honesty.

Take the 15 seconds

explain your impulse to lie

and that the 15 seconds is to stop that automatic defense which feeds the EXCUSE FACTORY

which feeds the problem

and the 15 seconds will help you stop your impulse.


Schoolbus

Some years ago I saw a post by Schoolbus where she was dealing with her husband over some issue where he had irritated her for the umpteenth time. She posted the conversation as best she remembered it. It would be worth finding and reading. I think I will look for it later.

In what appeared to be a calm and clear voice, she asked him about whatever the issues was. When he answered, he was trying to dodge, you know how us guys are. During the course of the conversation, she never let him get away with dodging. It was done with a very sharp knife that wasn't love busting or anything, just feeding his less than tasty words back at him. I think he wiggled and squirmed and made it worse as she relentlessly pursued the truth, the whole truth with no dodging.

I was impressed then and still. Do pay very close attention to what Schoolbus has to say to you. You will not regret it. And no dodging

Larry

Papa, I commend you guys for working hard to change your situation. Just be careful not to burn out quickly or expect overnight changes. One step at a time. Take your time to absorb the concepts rather than trying to cover everything in record time. Get in the mentality that is a LONG marathon.

You can do it!

--ElCamino72

Larry,

I actually remember that.

We were "discussing" the affair. He kept saying things to me like, "You are angry" or "You are paranoid", things like that.

I kept going back to the point - and saying simply, "So far you have said I am angry and paranoid." And I would calmly return BACK to what I wanted to say.

It was extremely difficult to do this - not an easy task - and each time he accused me of another "problem" I would feed it back to him in list form, "Okay, you have now noted that I am angry, paranoid, hysterical", and say, "But I am speaking calmly, and we still need to discuss this issue," or something like that. I never let him get me off track with the name calling or by diverting me to discussing what he thought about my "hysteria" or whatever.


That was very tough to do! But you know, since then, I have had to use that ..... zero times.

A quite effective method. Don't know if it will be in the archives, since the crash and all.

Hope you find it!

SB

Busy week. Its hard to balance all of the priorities. For the last couple days, I have been busy with work projects. I have been reading what people have posted, and I havent disappeared.

Things are still proceeding forward slowly though. Reading a chapter or two of the two books we have a day, and trying to spend some time talking with mamasita everyday.

Thought an update would be good. I am in this for the long haul. Really its been a long road even to get to this point, and I am not going to turn back at this point.

Hey you! I just searched (all the way to page 2) for your thread and here you are posting. I'm glad you're around.

Spend time on fun stuff, too, not just mending the marriage.

Bump.
How's it going?

Slow. This last week was tough. Physically I am a bit run down, so I was sick two days this week. Occasionally I get migraines. Related to not eating right, and not drinking enough water etc. So monday, I felt real bad. All the rest of the week I have been very busy, too much work(not complaining). I have read a little bit of all the books we got. They all have come. Friday, I really felt awful, another migraine. BAH. To make matters worse now its been another week, and mamasita feels really let down. I have not had enough progress.

As far as encouraging honesty, and talking. We have been attempting to talk about historic honesty stuff. Focusing on previous relationships, trying to get used to talking about this stuff. Its been hard though, because I am not being quick enough with everything. Its been so long, and she has been so patient, but.. we run a very busy life, very full of our kids. Its been really hectic.

Alright, I wish I had more news. But thats where we are at right now. This week I will make a better attempt at reading other peoples threads, and posting a few times. As well as the spending the time with mamasita on the plans we need to come up with.

I wanted to take a couple minutes to say I am still here. I plan on sitting down and reading another couple chapters, I really want to get through his/her needs book, all three books we ordered got here this week.

The surviving an affair one came today. Mamasita isnt taking this book as well as the other two. In some ways it seems to say that she should let go of the resentment. She should not be dwelling on the past, using it as a lovebuster and so on, this has been a constant sore spot for us, and today she almost sounded like she wanted to give up in the finding out every detail. It was very hard to hear, because I dont think thats really what she wants.

I do feel like she resents me over the affairs still, and that it does come out in a way that is very harmful to our relationship. I have also thought, and said, that it would be very helpful to let that go for a while, so we can rebuild trust. It seemed like a good idea to me, she has always rejected this. I wouldnt say that just forgetting about it, or not talking about it is going to make her any less resentful. Honestly, I dont know what will make her less resentful, I had hoped time would do it. But there are so many things that come up and trigger the memories.

It seems like PTSD. The way the triggers happen, and then the cant stop thinking about it. Its very troubling because I am responsible for the trauma.

So I had thought both the physical affairs were exit strategies that had failed. That has always been really the way I have said it happened. Another way I looked at it was just indulgence. Either way, they were very hard on mamasita, I can imagine that someone could get PTSD from the shock of the fighting, and the shock of having someone you love betray you. The question I am not getting to, is how do I help undo or start to undo the damage I have done.

In some ways this is more important to me than restoring my relationship with mamasita. I want to restore her psyche so she is a whole person again. I feel like I stole something from her, and then lost it and cant give it back.

Papa:

I thought you were getting somewhere, maybe feeling a little worn out, than I read this:



She is what? Three/four WEEKS into this?

Sorry Pal, It been close to FIVE YEARS since my D-Day. And there is STILL resentment from Flamingo. Not every day. Not every week, but its there.

Our marriage is in a MUCH BETTER place, that is true. But there is MUCH to atone for on my part. There has been MUCH resentment dealt with and resolved. But there will always be something else that needs to be addressed.....

Stuff your anger for a little while. Stuff your PAIN for little while. No, STUFF it for a long time.

LG

3 years since d-day. More even. February 11th. We were slow asking for help here, I wish we had done it sooner.

let go of finding out about the truth so we can work on building trust? am i crazy?

Oh this day is going so well. She is packing her stuff now. The anger is just unbelievable. She yells and says she hates me. Cant stand me. I call her names, yell back.. this is just not tenable.

Well thats the way it works I guess. I knew I was taking too long, but I am juggling a lot of responsibilities. Too bad I guess.

So anyways thanks all for helping. I think that really this could work but it would take two people trying. At this point I dont see that. Not usually, sometimes a couple days will go by and we try a little. But its not enough.

So she calls me names, I call her names back. Wow, we are adults. I wish I could not be angry, but she knows me well. She knows exactly what to say. Comparing me to the previous man in her life, and saying she hates me etc. Then of course its my fault because I didnt stay up and talk last night.

I had a task to do this morning, not getting done now. I had work that HAS to be done to get paid this week. But, its not getting done. Instead its fighting time. Disrespectful time. Its horrible.

Really in the end the kids pay the price for our fighting much worse than we do. I think this should also be my bottom line, that the kids dont need this fighting in their lives. I should be happy to let mamasita go, because if we are not together we wont be doing this to each other in front of the kids.

It really is horrible.

Why are you calling her names and yelling back? What has she done wrong?

Are you making any attempt to stop her packing and leaving?

First of all I would not stop her from leaving, or packing or anything like that. I guess, I went and talked with her, we had a very good discussion about the 1st PA. This in some ways, is going to affect if she wants to leave. But, thats not what you meant.

Why am I calling her names and yelling back?
This is one of the best questions, and usually is the question I ask myself to stop yelling. It takes me very little time to stop yelling now because of that. Another one I ask is, do I want the consequences of the yelling, and I think through what those are. That usually stops me dead in my tracks.

What did she do wrong?
This isnt as easy to answer. Actually it is, she has done nothing wrong. The other thing is, its very hard to say if its her, or me. I usually feel like it takes both of us participating in a fight, that if one of us stops, the fight no longer goes on. I also feel like I have developed a very good ability to step back, apologize and talk it out.
I just had a very good talk with her, after the yelling stopped. I disclosed a lot more information, answered every question she had. There was some hostility, but I just explained that I wasnt going to be mad, I noticed that she was not even looking at me when she was saying things that were intended to make me mad.
One thing I have a really hard time with is having her put words in my mouth, saying things for me, and I am supposed to choose which one. This is a great example of something I feel she does wrong. I can take it sometimes, other times it really is hard for me to handle.


So this bad day is getting turned around. I am not going to spend the day angry.

Also, on a side note my work that needs to get done isnt getting done. But, at least the yelling has stopped, and she is starting to feel a little better.

It seemed like a good idea to give up the info as I thought of it yesterday, I just wish I had better timing with it. If I give up info like that, I need to be prepared to immediately deal with the emotional consequences, not put it off for even 12 hours, or whatever... thats just not going to work. The thing that I have difficulty balancing that with the not wanting to bottle up these memories anymore. They are starting to become clearer, and as I disclose them, I am able to remember and explain more. But some of them come out very oddly, and at bad times it seems.

Disclosing it to her took about 12 minutes. The bad night and the fight.. 12 hours. I should do the math before I spend the time. Not to mention the added emotional strain.

Her "letting go" of her anger to rebuild trust is NOT going to work. Trust will be rebuilt as you are honest about your affairs. Mama has said that she feels more in love with you after disclosure. Healing will come as you are honest. You saying she needs to 'let go' is basically telling her her needs are not important.

Of course disclosure is going to be emotionally painful for her. That is a consequence of your actions you are going to have to bear.

It's been 3 years, sure - but you are only NOW dealing with this. Her years of bottled up emotions and resentment are only going to make this harder.

When she gets angry and starts to fight, it is YOUR job to not escalate. You tell her you love her, you remain calm. You hold her if she needs it. Fighting back is not gong to help her rebuild her trust in you. Of course she knows what buttons to push. You have to IGNORE that.



It got a little hard so you're giving up. Is that what I'm hearing? Sounds like a Renter to me. YOU can keep the fights from happening. This process is going to be painful and difficult and it's going to take YEARS. But it doesn't sound like you're up for it. So you have a LOT of priorities. The problem is that your number one priority should be fixing your relationship - and it's taking a back seat. THAT is why she's upset, and she has a right to be. Putting other things before this is telling her those things are more important than her. ARE they? Should she be Sacrificing her anger for your 'priorities'? Is that it?

She is going to be angry - you HURT her. THIS is why I've been recommending again and again to Mama that you need to schedule time to talk about the affairs and limit the talk to THAT TIME. She wants it pretty frequently, maybe a couple days a week. YOU need to prioritize this. BE there for this time. Then you'll need a few days to recover from the emotional fall out. I've been trying to explain this to her but she doesn't seem to be getting it. Might have to pop back in over at her thread.

YOU need to make disclosure your priority. You can always get another job - but you'll never have as good a chance as NOW to rebuild the damage you've done to this relationship. Recovery has already been put off for too long.