Tink:

I have been waiting to see you get fired up You need to be so you can be stronger.

Dr. Harley says there is a progression from about 5% of affairs which reach marriage and 70% of those don't survive. Your Uncle is a very rare case.

Vampira has had a hard life. In SoCal, it is called the Dorian Grey effect. Somewhere between 40 and 45, the pruning will start. And it is downhill from there.

Larry

I promise you that the affair won't last. They almost never do. Only about 3% of affairs end in marriage, and 75% of those go on to divorce.

But don't worry about that just now. You need to get strong and keep going with your Plan A.

LOL! So funny that MY uncle would be a "rare" case. Then again, the dude makes like almost a million dollars a year and that is unheard of where I'm from. The money is what really changed him I think. But it's good to know that it's rare for marriage to happen and for it to actually last. I don't know how it could, being started in adultery and all.

Vampira has had a hard life huh. Sure has. And she has used her "traumatic" past to manipulate my WH. Now she has panic attacks and a heart issue or something. But....this could just be complete BS and manipulation on her part...to keep my WH concerned with her. Maybe she was desperate and that is why she told him? Who knows. All I know is that I can't WAIT til it's over and WH realizes what he did.

I completely agree with you when you say that most guys you know wouldn't D over something like dishonesty over a past issue. I would think most people talk about D when they have someone lined up. My WH hasn't said he wanted a D. So I don't know if that is a good sign or not. I would assume that if he did say he wanted one then vampira would be ready to take my place as his "wife". But I am guessing you will say that is highly unlikely. Some nitwit told me to picture them getting married so I could "move on" with my life. I just couldn't believe that. How ridiculous.

Wow someone actually told you that? that's a little harsh. Better come back with that statistic that most marriages that came out of affairs don't last.

Yep, in plan A all the way. It is hard hard hard. Everyone has told me that it's tough but that it's the best thing to do right now. So far so good. WH is saying stuff like he's "withdrawn from reality right now" "going through a rough time". He seems distant over the phone as usual. Although he laughed with me today when we were talking about my brother. I am being as positive and hopeful as I can when I talk with him or text him. I want him to see that no matter what the past was and no matter what he's doing now, he still had something good with me and it isn't worth burying it all and callin it quits.

He says we have a lot to figure out when he comes back for the birth. He is talking about the future. I asked him what he would like to happen after I have the baby. That's when he said we have a lot to talk about. I am a little nervous about that. But I flat out asked him if he was just waiting until I had the baby to drop the big D bomb on me. Maybe that was no no. He said that isn't what he's doing. I don't know. Maybe I made a mistake in asking him that.

You really can't listen to what he says now, because he is having an affair. He is just spewing fog talk. The very best thing for you to do is go to court and get child support from him. Don't let him keep being "resentful" on his SoCal vacation.

By the way, I live in SoCal and am very resentful that the waves aren't good for surfing tonight.

In my opinion it was a valid question. No love buster, just a search for the truth.

Larry

tink,

You need to bear in mind that what your husband sees as "honest" right now is probably the William James version of the truth. William James' philosophy of the truth was basically, "The truth is whatever works."

If you will indulge me for a moment, I think I can partially explain the mindset of how some of this crappolla that is going on in WH's head is being justified, and how you might use this to fight it.


POINT OF ORDER: DISCLAIMER!!!! I DO NOT NECESSARILY ASCRIBE TO THESE BELIEFS. SO DON'T ANYBODY START BUGGIN' THE 'BUS.

For purposes of "understanding" and edification only.


There are schools of thought that tend toward the concept that the "truth" is a personal thing. That the truth does not necessarily exist as a stand-alone entity, that it is influenced by the perspective of the truth "viewer".

Let's look at this from your husband's point of view, or more generally, an infidel's point of view.

The affairee is placed in a situation where he has met someone to whom he is attracted. He sees this as an EXTERNAL event - his "truth" is that the world, karma, fate, is influencing him in a way that happens TO him, not in a way that he had a choice in the matter. The temptation occurred as an event that came AT him, or TO him. His view is that he did not SEEK this event.

This is at a rather superficial level, because there is an internal conflict happening - which is the reason you get the response from the affairee, "I am confused" so frequently. The conflict? Internally, there is the deeper voice of his morality speaking, which is telling him that this event does have an alternative, resting in CHOICE. And, furthermore, that he is IGNORING the alternative - and within the process of ignoring the alternative, he is also ignoring the morals and principles and "socially-bound truth" upon which his base psyche is formed, the one he grew up with and the one you know him as the man he used to be, deep inside.

It is here that the "conflict" and "confusion" arises, and the stress begins.

It is also where the blaming begins.


You see, the blaming MUST begin, in order to allow for the first "truth" - the so-called "personal truth" to win out over the deeper and more socially-bound truth. When we are able to blame someone else for what we are doing - when what we are doing goes against our morals, values, and deeper truth - then we are able to betray ourselves and others and justify this with that blaming.


This is how we are able to lie, and justify it.
This is how we are able to cheat on our spouses, and justify it.

The affairee can say, "My wife lied to me about what she did before we met. Even though she told me over a year ago, that hurt me. I was okay for awhile, but now that I think about it again, I think that I'm not okay with it. And besides, she SHOULD have told me all along. There were other things wrong with the marriage, too. Let's see, there's probably a list....."


The affairee does this to make the "truth" fit. "Whatever works." It is his personal truth.



In discussions regarding this issue of the truth, many philosophers have blasted this attitude, others accept it because "everything" is influenced by the observer's perspective.

You are, of course, free to make your own judgement on what is or is not "the truth".







As for betrayals, and how they come about, the first betrayal occurs within the SELF. You can always recognize it when you begin to blame

someone else
or
something else

or when you start to justify what you have done.



That is the hallmark of self-betrayal. That is when you know you have gone against something you know deep inside could have been done better.

SB

Tink:

I want to expand on SB's points without the disclaimer. She is expressing a valid point that I have been researching lately:

What she is talking about has a couple of labels in the wonderful world of shrinkdom.

The first is called Cognitive Dissonance. You can look it up.

I prefer the "Personal Narrative" label. A personal narrative in this context is what we tell ourselves to justify whatever it was that we did or want to do that would ordinarily violate what should be our personal ethics.

1. We change history. Neither of us (or just me) was ever happy with our marriage. We were going to divorce anyway, etc. You did all that stuff that made me want to do this.

2. We find cultural excuses: We are in love, we are soul mates, we were meant to be together, etc.

3. We arrange our present view: Don't you want me to be happy, the kids will be ok, you will survive, this is destiny, etc.

Of course personal narrative covers more than adultery. But that is something for another day.

Larry

What Larry is talking about is the psychological angle on what is being experienced.

My angle is a philosophical one - based in self-betrayal concepts.

Both have worth when it comes to gaining a very broad and deep understanding of what is happening in our minds. The idea of betraying our deepest sense of truth or self is a difficult thing to conceive of. Of course this betrayal would result in confusion!

It does not EXCUSE behavior, however.


The fact remains that your husband CHOSE the affair.


And continues to choose the affair.



His confusion results from his attempts to justify it, and the struggle he has knowing his justifications fall short in the honesty realm.

He knows what he is doing is wrong.

The fact he faces each day is that he is sinning - and nothing he says can erase that. He can blame YOUR sins or lies, he can blame temptation, sun spots, or the man in the moon. But when the judgement comes down, he is the one who will be held responsible.

It is his sin to own. His "confusion" is stuck

right there.

SB-

Thank you, thank you, and thank you. Today I felt hopeless but after reading what you wrote I am feeling better.

I have very calmly and sincerely told him that I was so sorry for my dishonesty about what happened before we dated. And I was truly sorry for it. I meant my apology and I wanted to work things out. He did too, atleast that is what he SAID.

I see how he is using this to justify his own CHOICE. Before, he told me he had "suppressed" his feelings about it for the past year and that just happened to "come out" when he was apart from me for 4 months with time to "think". I now see that this "thinking" happened AFTER he was attracted to that woman. I want to show you something he wrote me at the end of October. We had only been apart for a month at this point. His distance did not start getting bad until December/January. When he had the most contact with vampira. Here is the email he sent to me:

Oh you know i love you...bla bla bla.seriously, i do and we would both be messes without eachother.i would either be workin myself to death at some meaningless job or posted up in jail with my brother fightin for my manhood.i dont like to think about the things of the past.im sorry for everytime i hurt you too.im with you because i want to be,not because i have some "nice guy" syndrome or something.i am glad we got married and i dont regret it.our sons are handsome and smart because of you.im sick of being apart and sometimes i loathe myself for not making a better living for us. I would write more but cole is standing right behind me. love, your husband

Now....he hadn't gotten close to this woman at this point. I read this email and it makes me so sad. That is my real H talking, the one who really loved me. I am so incredibly heartbroken to know that his heart has shut me out and he has hardened himself towards me. I have beat myself up so much over my mistake of being dishonest with him about the past and my other mistakes in our M. I was almost on the verge of losing my faith in God b/c my WH had me feeling like this was all my fault and God thought so too. Why would God even want me to have a restored M b/c I had messed up so much? That is how I was thinking when I go over what he's said to me. I still go back there sometimes. But I read something you post or something Larry or MB or reading or scotland will tell me and I feel better. But at the same time I still feel so sad that it seems as though my loving H is forever gone.....

Also, wondering about plan B. Everyone has said I will know when the time is right to go into that plan if necessary. My question is, is plan B basically an ultimatum? Because I tried the ultimatum before and obviously it didn't work. He chose his A that he refuses to call an A. How wonderfully wayward. Anyway, if I go into plan B and I give him the letter...won't it be like another ultimatum to him? And also wondering how many waywards stop the A once they get the plan B letter and come straight home to work it out.....is that pretty much non existent?

How much do you think they will make him pay me? As of now he doesn't make very much money. Do they take that into account? I really would love to see him lose his job or lose clients so he won't have any money. Maybe that seems mean but I think it would be the best way to get him the heck out of there. I am not wanting to go back to SoCal. (no offense) I don't like it out there and all of our family is in Iowa and Oklahoma.

What do you think I should do after the baby comes? I am dreading plan B. I would LOVE for him to snap out of A fantasy land before I would ever have to go to plan B. I realize this is very hopeful on my part. I was hoping vampira would have shown her hideous true colors by now...or atleast hoping some of her disgusting character would be creeping up....and that my WH would notice it.

Tink:


Most all the time, he will not be gone forever. The cases you read on MB are not necessarily typical. Often, we see only the worst of the worst here, the no hope folks. Or the ones smart enough to go get help like you. We see a tiny percentage of affairs here.

After the affair is stopped and he has distance in time and help, he can return, probably way more wise than when he chose to go down the road he is currently traveling. Right now he is dealing with the conflicts of shame and guilt and the euphoria of an emotional affair that is probably physical as well.

Larry

SB-
I wanted to ask about something you wrote:

If you will indulge me for a moment, I think I can partially explain the mindset of how some of this crappolla that is going on in WH's head is being justified, and how you might use this to fight it.

How do I fight it? I understand exactly what you are saying. But how do I fight this mindset he has?

Hmmmm....thank you Larry. That makes me feel a bit better. I guess the "turmoil" he is experiencing (his own words) is what you just said. The shame and guilt he is feeling along with the euphoria of the emotional and/or physical affair. The physical part makes me sick. The emotional part makes me very sad and lonely. And again the physical part makes me want to break things.

When he does (i'm thinking positively here. i know to plan for two roads, but i am trying to believe that the road we will take will be recovery, not D.) come back and stops the A should I have him take a polygraph test if he is still denying any physical contact with her? And in that case I suppose I should have him and myself get tested for STD's as well. Maybe I should get tested anyway, right now?

This is sickening to me b/c if he slept with her and then with me he is not only endangering ME but also our BABY. SICK. Also, if he has been physical doesn't that create HUGE feelings of guilt? I mean, he is a christian. Not only would he be committing adultery, but he would be fornicating b/c in his mind it's not "adultery". Well, it would still be fornication. Something he is so heavily "against".

I know that I was a WRECK when my ONS occured. And it wasn't like it was some enjoyable experience. And it ended briefly on my part. But I was still a wreck. It was making me physically ill. This is why I think when someone sleeps with their OW or OM for the first time or even after that...that they would feel SO much guilt and SO much conflict they would have to just spill the beans. I always thought he would do that had he done something so terrible. Maybe he would have before. But now? I guess not.

You don't think I'm one of the "no hope folks" do you? I don't think you do, but what type of situation would be without hope?

Also, what do you mean you see a tiny percentage of affairs here. affairs here...what?

Also, Larry-

I was reading the FWH thread that pep started, I was just wondering about these "feelings" that the WS has for the OP. You said that they are real feelings right? Or atleast, they think that they are real feelings? So how do you go through that when the A is over? I am kind of gettin scared that these "feelings" he has for vampira will NEVER go away. I wonder if she really is an aging hedonist who has bad character that will eventually show her true colors....

You see, I am concerned that my WH will always think that she was the real love of his life and I wasn't. And in that case I suppose he would not come back. But how would he ever get back his feelings for me? This seems impossible to me even if he ends the A and is sad and having "feelings" for her still.

From what I've been reading, Plan B only works with a good Plan A. Plan A shows him how good marriage with you can be, Plan B shows what divorce will be.

Plan B is your way of protecting the last bit of love you have for your H. I don't think it's an ultinatum it's you setting your boundaries. It's supposed to be no more contact with you whatsoever. No more getting his ENs met by you. Since you have kids together, even that will have to be through someone neutral.

I don't think it takes just the letter for the WS to come back. It will take the letter and actually doing Plan B.

Plan A and Plan B is your tools to outlast the affair. That's all you have to do - outlast the A.

I think right now what most WS experience is infataution....they BELIEVE what they are feeling right now is real. I undestand because I experienced it myself. Once I got out of my own fog I look back and say what was I thinking??

I honestly do worry the same things but right now we should focus on Plan A. Once we get into recovery we can deal with those issues, you know what I mean?