You two need the rules of engagement.


It isn't good to start the "talks" before bed.

What is happening is that papa sees a long talk coming when he is asked a question, and so the avoidance kicks in.

That doesn't need to happen, when mama and papa use the rules.

I will bump a thread. Try the rules out. Adjust as you need. Have mama read the rules.


SB

You will find that I am "mean", but I get to what ails you.

Hate me if you must, but everything I do helps me figure you out. Sincerely.

In the end, you will love me.

I bumped a thread for you to look at. Read the post regarding Saturn and Messdup. You can find the rules there. It should give you a way to get started so that your "talks" are more productive, and a lot less scary for you.

Also, they won't be so long..................or off-topic...........or end up so nutty that you think you will never finish talking about this until the morning after tomorrow.

Use the rules. At least until you get to the point that you two can talk without name-calling and packing up!

Hmm, not finding this post. Wheres it at?

Papa:

I repeat myself.

This has been going on for THREE YEARS?

And then you call her names?

Boy, you must have serious esteem issues if you are feeling attacked by schoolbus...

Because she was right. You are an Idiot.

Your destoying your family by the simple act of withholding the truth of what was going on in your life. That is all you BS wants to know.

She may divorce you anyway, now. Becasue your true colors are coming in to view.

The lack of the truth witl cause it faster that disclosing the truth.

And you have held out for 3 years.

Wow.

This site may make you feel bad. You may stop posting. But you will get divorced or not because of YOUR ACTIONS.

Put down all your verbal weapons. Put down all your defensiveness. And start LEARNING.

Do you want to fix this or NOT?

LG

I repeat myself. Calling people idiots seems like a clear breach of the terms of service.
So does acting like an idiot...which I have.

Its a disrespectful judgement. Really its not constructive.
if the judgement is true, perhaps its not disrespectful, I should almost be thanking you for pointing this out

These forums do not allow you to see into our lives with the clarity it would require for you to be able to make those sort of judgement anyhow. By design, the format we are restricted to is very difficult. The really hard part is judging peoples intent, emotional context, and the subjects that get discussed here are very emotional based.
its very hard to explain everything that has happened. please ask, before assuming. however in this case, I clearly made an idiot of myself

I think the time that has transpired... these three years is not clear to everyone here. I would think, that with all of the time you have spent on the boards here, that you would have more patience and understanding when it comes to people talking about things like this. I am certain that this takes time to explain everything.
three years, a lot has happened, much has changed.

How much of the "story" does she have? Did she have immediately when the affairs were busted? Its kind of interesting, to ask this, because I think that over these three years there has been a lot of the information, just some parts are not being talked about. Specific parts... this is a problem, and is being addressed. Really thats why I am here. Not to have people call me names.
only she will know when she has enough info on the affairs, I just need to provide more and more until she is satisfied

Really, I am admitting that I have AO's. I guess I should just specifically ask for help on this instead of displaying it in an idiotic fashion. I also should not be mad because you point it out.
Thanks

Right Here!

larry

papa:

Over the years, I have been called names and had my personal integrity attacked in very specific terms. When I was wrong, I admitted it, apologized and went on. Sometimes harsh words are used to get your (my) attention. It just depends. Sometimes the harsh words are proper and sometimes they are far off base. Again, it just depends.

Let me give you a perspective on SB. I consider her one of the very best of the best at what she does. If she were to get on me, and she has, I would very carefully consider what she has to say. But of course, I have the perspective of reading thousands and thousands of posts and threads.

LG has backed up SB. And he is a guy who I have seen develop over the years from a WH who came here to learn. And he has and he provides very good advice.

And so can you. You saw me go after mama for attitude. And you saw her reaction. And you saw that when others came in to say the same thing, again, that she had rejected, she turned around and started to get it. You might want to review the thread by 26years. She got a few two x fours. turned her attitude around and the result was progress instead of the status quo, about which she was complaining.

Ignore, if you will, the words used to give you a wake up call and consider instead what has been said. Shooting the messenger is probably not in your personal best interest.

Ya' think.

And again, SB and LG both have years of experience on here and are to be taken seriously. I know that I do.

Larry

Yeah, I think SB is right about everything she said. I pretty much really like her posts. I thought I had sorted it out nicely with her. Then LG jumped on. They are both right. I have been an idiot, I have made many selfish and idiotic choices, pointing out that I am still making them is actually something I should be thanking them for.

If anyone is to blame, its me. I dont expect I will be going anywhere, I really do appreciate the help everyone has given us.

Thanks for posting those rules for communication. We are reading through them. They seem like something we can do on a daily basis. When we run out of affair stuff to talk about, I imagine that we will have a lot of really nice things to talk about during that intimate time.

Yep papa, every time you try to go up a dead end, someone on here will usually notice and help you out. This is a collaborative board and each poster picks up something different and we all help each other communicate.

I want YOU and MAMA to get to the point where you are helping others.

Hey, I started ignorant as can be. I learned. I still learn. Right now I am reading Dr. Harley's latest book someone sent me. And long the way, I too needed attitude adjustments.

Personally, I don't entirely hold how you did business BEFORE you got here, only whether or not you learn AFTER you get started. That and long held attitudes that may be stopping your progress to a better life.

Good show papa

Larry

Fixt

I see a lot about you in here Papa - not a whole lot about Mama. She is reaching the end of her rope. It seems like she's been telling you for a while what she needs. You need to provide that if you have any chance of succeeding.

You and Mama DEFINITELY should have picked different partners. She's someone that didn't know how to commit, you're someone that doesn't know what appropriate boundaries are. Yet you had children. You owe it to THEM to fix this. Were it not for them I'd tell you both to walk away.

You guys CAN fix this. Everything people do here is in support of your relationship. Everything we say is to make it stronger. But you have to realize, you two have A LOT of obstacles to overcome, more than the average couple recovering from infidelity here.

You need to learn how to be the source of Mama's happiness. You need to learn how to avoid making her unhappy. You need to learn how to put HER needs before everything else: before your job, before your video games, even before your kids. SHE needs to be your focus and your number one priority.

She's never been that before and now her Taker is out in full force. Her taker is there to protect her, why? Because she doesn't believe YOU will protect her - because you HAVEN'T in the past. THIS is buying - THIS is marriage and you HAVE to change the way you do business.

YOU don't get to decide when Mama gets to hear what she wants to hear. SHE sets that. Right now, her NEED is for you to completely come clean - however long it takes, whatever emotionally you have to go through - THAT is the price you pay for your infidelity. SO WHAT if it's gonna take 12 hours for her to recover? This is a consequence of what you have done to her.

Schoolbus has every right to call you on your screwups. So she was a bit inflammatory - got your attention didn't it?

Papa:

I'm jumping on you because you have a SHOT.

You have a SHOT because you came here to MB.

You have had alot of time to learn here so far. 10 days doesn't seem like much, but it can be a HUGE eye opener. You keep coming back. That is good. Very good.

Something I thought you would have learned early on from here is to NOT yell at your BS.

You DON'T have to be yelled AT. That is true. Your BS is going thru levels of anger that may take many months to ease, but it never goes away.

So, if your BS anger starts to rise, remember the things in SB's thread that was pulled up for you. How to diffuse the sitch somewhat.

That's what MB gave me BS and me. An ability to talk about things that used to get us really upset, in a calm manner.

Hopefully, you got your work done...

Between the Masters and MB, it's been tough for me...

LG

i do not have a failure to commit vibrissa . just look at me. i am still here. i feel like i committed to papa when i decided to have babies with him. no matter what, i want him to be healthy because he gets to make choices about my most precious people. i am committed to workkin this thru with him because even if we separated he would still be part of my life thru my kids and i love them more than life itself. and he is teaching them thru his behaviors, too. i have sons, i want to have access to my grandchildren and boys who don't know how to treat their babies and mamas are not guaranteed of that.

i also love papa and many things have changed it's true. i hope we can save us.

I misspoke mama - see my reply on your thread.

So we went through the rules for communication that SB posted. We are going to try doing the sessions twice a day. We have not set times yet, I will work on that this afternoon. We are also trying to touch each other more often throughout the day. This keeps us affectionate with one another, which really disables the getting mad quite effectively. She had tried to touch me during one of my AO, a couple weeks ago, I did not react well. Of course I didnt know what she was doing, now that I know that we can let go of anger by setting our hand on each others shoulder, its not so bad.

So in addition to just focusing on daily attention, we are going to sit down face to face, hand in hand, knee to knee (sounds intense).. for 15 minutes, twice a day. This is only 3.5 hours a week, which is really quite minimal time commitment. We have a printed version of the rules, and will be doing our best at following the format.

There are many other things that need to happen, besides the 1/2 hour a day of intense communications. I still need to spend time reading, and daily time writing. Either here or in my book of secrets, or perhaps just nice notes to mamasita... something she has asked for, and I have never given. By writing, I am finding that I am identifying key issues, that are harder to identify using introspective thinking alone.

All of this seems like it will fit into less than a couple hours a day, which seems like I should be able to fit this in my schedule without even doing any harm to it.

I read through a couple posts, the one about memory management was a really good read. I feel like it really opened my eyes to the way memory is archived, I had not really thought about memory in the dual way, having the emotional stuff all trapped up inside(bottled up), is what is causing me not to remember. Letting this out, during intense conversations with mamasita, should free up the blockage to a very large degree. At least it seems to me. I dont think I have wanted to go through these emotional memories, partly because in doing so its going to release a lot of guilt and shame, as well as the feelings I had for the other women. Anyhow, that was a real good article.

I also read the article that someone linked in mamasita's thread. About resolving conflicts. I really liked this one as well. I like the idea of gaining cred sorting out conflicts, instead of losing it. I really look forward to calm resolutions to the problems we have been having. Usually the conflict resolution process we have used(process is an exaggeration), has been more harmful than the conflicts. We have had huge conflicts over very insubstantial things.



Ok, I got to get to work here. I will check in later.

Sounds good. You guys are really making progress. I would also encourage you to schedule time together for just the two of you to enjoy eachother- away from affair talk. Make deposits in your banks.