I would skip all the buyer/renter talk. He has a very short attention span for relationship talk right now. I would keep VERY focused and to the point. Everything else is just noise and will wear him out and frustrate both of you.

Things end up in an argument for two reasons:
He's embarrassed so he gets defensive.
You allow things to escalate.

I would just say to him, straight out, "I am not happy with our sex life. This is CRITICAL to me. I cannot express adequately how much it means to me and how rejected and lonely I feel right now. I need your help in finding a solution that works for us. So how can we address this?"

He will try to deflect by picking a fight.

Him: "What ever I do it is never enough"
You: "I did not generalize. I was specific. Our sex life is not enough for me. How can we address that problem?"

Him: "You want what you want"
You: "That is true. I want a fulfilling sexual relationship with my partner. How can we get there?"

You're not being selfish. You are being honest and asking for his help in finding a solution to a problem.

Avoid "understanding" or "sympathetic" remarks like "I know this must be embarrassing for you" because that is a DJ. You really have no way of knowing how he feels. Keep a very tight focus when you have this conversation. If you have to, write down a little cheat sheet with your talking points:

1. I am not happy with our sex life
2. I need your help in fixing this problem

Then do not stray from those two points. Be prepared to sit through minutes of silence while he digests and thinks. Men don't talk about feelings easily. It is hard for them.

When you're done, be sure to thank him for his honesty, or his contributions, or thoughts, or input or whatever. Tell him you appreciate it and that you are glad you are a team and can work together even when it's not fun. You'll have to ad lib this quite a lot depending on how it goes but if you keep tightly focused I think it will go well. Find something positive about the exchange and thank him for it. Then do something really fun. A favorite dish for dinner, or a walk, or a favorite pastime of his this weekend.

I know he had a problem with the OW

Only because the PI I had
told me he ordered Viagra
I even know the day he picked it up
and that the ow stayed at his place that night...
He doesn't know I know this...

I did say to him by what he said to me one night when I said there is Viagra..
That he had tried it
then he told me he didn't
but when I said something
he said what if you don't like how it makes you feel and my heart problem...
that was a give away but guess he didn't think so
But I used that to bring it up...
He still doesn't know I know about it...

He will NOT talk about the OW or what went on at all...
I have tried...
He tells me nothing
and gets upset when I bring it up...
today he said he doesn't know why I have a need to bring up the past...

Oh and he did have an ED problem long before he left here... for 2 years...
It has been since his heart attack...

Before that it was fine here in that area

I even think him leaving and talking to her at work that he might have thought
it might be diffrient with someone else...
And think he found out it was not

Well you were right on

He's embarrassed so he gets defensive that is where it went
at first
I did what you said and tried to stay on the one point

At first
he said I am not going to keep going on like this..
talking about this
That he wasn't going to go through this every 3 or 4 weeks

I said something that I think shocked him

I told him that if is what he wanted to do instead of talking and trying to work it out
that is fine if that is your decision

Then he started talking

He said you don't understand you are not a man..
He said he is embarrassed as a man
I said isn't there a way we can work on it
was there a problem with other things that we could do and he said yes because he can't finish..
He said the heart attack messed up a lot more then just his heart..
I told him that the heart attack wasn't his fault that I didn't see it that way..
that to me it would be like him being in a car wreck and losing a leg and saying that was his fault...
He said it would be if the wreck was his fault I was trying to make a point

He got upset hope it is OK to say this
He said
do you want the hand of God to come down and grab my **** and make it work....
Said for a woman it is easy you don't need a pill or anything for him the pill isn't good because of his heart...
He can't get past it
it seems to me

I did ask
and know you might think I shouldn't have but did
questions that I have had and he would never talk about it with me

I asked

Did you have this problem with OW
he got upset said I can't leave it alone
I said NO I had just wondered because I care about him and love him and sometimes I wonder if it is me...
And that I do care how he feels

And I can't even believe I said this
But I said
if he wasn't happy here if he was feeling or thinking he wanted to be somewhere else maybe that would be best for him...That I wanted him to be happy that this isn't all about me

That he had this problem long before the OW and I never complained to him about it.. That I have really tried to understand..

well he said
Yes I did right out of the gate
said now are you happy

I said No

that I had kind of thought with it being something new
he might not of had a problem right away...
He said it is over can't I leave it alone..

I asked him if he was still having an EA with OW
he tried to skirt that one
he said what do you think
that he is here all the time
I told him that isn't what I was asking
I said I don't know because he was just answering my question with a question
And that I would like him to be honest with me
He said No he is not..


I told him I would try
that I missed the closeness I felt when being with him..
That I missed that a great deal because I do love him...

I asked him also has he ever thought about it with me
he said yes
And he has thought after what happened with the OW that I would say oh no I don't want to go there with you and if he couldn't perform I would think it was because of something it wasn't...
I told him it is kind of funny that there are many a nights when I go to bed I want to put my arm around him, but I feel he doesn't want me to... So I don't...

He said he couldn't help that... me feeling that way...
That he has never said or done anything to stop me...

maybe I am bad at getting it across...

He would never talk to me about this before
answer my questions
and that has bothered me
and after doing so much reading on here
I felt I needed to get this out....
And went by what you all have said
I took the advice
don't know how good at it I was
But after all this time he did answer my questions...

Where we go from here I don't know
Thinking I will have to take the lead here
what do you think ??

By the way we couldn't talk till the little one was in bed
I hope he was honest with me
What is your take on this

Did I do this right
I tried to keep this short and to the point didn't work out that way lol but you get the drift of what went on here

Sounds like you did everything right.

And I believe him. The hard part is that you will need to take the lead right now, because you are the one that knows about marriagebuilders.

Rest up tonight and know that you have made a breakthrough.

I think you did very good. I am a guy and you talked to him somewhat in guy talk and he understood when you got in that mode and it helped him unload. He needed to. Past that I can't go much into your deal except a brief comment on intimacy and Viagra.

Oh yea, Viagra. Chapter and verse. As information, I am way old enough to have run through the whole emotional steps on Viagra. And in a relationship too

First intimacy. Doesn't come easy to a guy. He will respond as you train him too. Its all good, just takes time to teach him. He may decide to like it. I did.

Now Viagra.

Oh boy. What a hair ball. See the commercial on the product? This guy futzing around trying to work up the courage to talk to his doctor about it? Real stuff. Right to the heart of a guy's, uh, heart. Well his emotions anyway.

Originally a heart medicine. It lowers blood pressure. Absolutely, positively MUST be under supervision of a doctor who not only knows all about it but also knows all about it in terms of the patient's complete medical history, period, the end.

Cialis can be a bit better for some. A doc should be able to define the best one for an individual patient. Not all docs are completely aware of everything on both products. Viagra provides huge benefits for prescribing doctors, at least in the past, so it doesn't hurt to plow through the web sites yourself and yes, it takes time.

But it is worth it. This is THE most sensitive issue that can be raised with a guy. It strikes at the source of his manhood, for most men. At the same recommended dosage, Cialis is less potent, so to speak than Viagra, but last longer, much longer.

One thing that does not get published but is spread by word of mouth is a side benefit that is more prominent with Viagra than Cialis, but is still present. As men get to a certain age, they lose a bit of length and width. Both products help them regain much of what they have lost. Not always all, as in the best they could ever display, but close.

I have been told it is far better for a first time user of Viagra or Cialis to be in a trial usage when he is with someone he trusts and who cares about him.

He should be thinking he is doing it for himself, so he can get maximum benefit from making someone else happy AND himself at the same time. Both ED drugs work best in that context; mutual benefit, so I have been told. I think it has something to do with being safe or comfortable or relaxed or something.

Once a male accepts an ED drug, he will never look back. He will never look up or sideways, if he can use it according to HIS doctor. Cialis may work better simply because the opportunity window is much wider, but the strength is different, so it becomes a choice based on, er, personal performance.

Let me say this one more time. HIS doctor is the one to say grace over his use of it, how often and the correct dosage and which one. There are other ways to get either one and any guy with a heart condition risks major problems if he uses an alternate source.

Hope all that helps.

Larry

Sunshine,

I think you made huge progress. I would not try to have "a talk" with him real soon, but for later when you think the time is right, here is a copy of Joseph's Letter. It is passed around on these forums from time to time and it does a very good job of explaining why BS need to talk about "it" over and over. It is long, but good. Print it out and wait for the right time to share it with your spouse.

--
"Dear Spouse,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is will affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

Thank You Larry
For the info

His doctor really doesn't want him taking the stuff
I know this for a fact
I have been to the doctor with him a few times
Then he had heart cath in Jan
Where they said he is starting to get blockages past where they did the bypasses...
He really had a bad heart attack
the doctor came out before they did the bypass said he needed to talk to me before they got started...
Told me John might not make it through surgery...
He did but was on heart pump for a few days being his heart was not strong enough to beat on its own...
Then he had a bad reaction to the blood thinners that almost killed him...
They told him if he ever took it again it would kill him...
because of all of this he was on the Vent for 6 days...
where most are only on it for 24 hrs after surgery,,,
Then he has been to the ER a couple of times for Low blood pressure... Out of no where it will drop....
So they had to down his heart meds because of that....

Thank You Turtlehead

I copied the letter will keep it and read it again...

He just called from work
he doesn't call till lunch most of the time..
Said he wanted to make sure I was doing Ok
I thanked him for calling...

I do think we got somewhere last night
It was a long time coming
But that was because I was afraid to upset him...
So I kept my mouth shut most of the time...

I did tell him last night to make very sure what he wanted...
Because I can not go through this again...
I think the turning point with him was
He really felt I have had it
That it wouldn't take much more and I would be done here for good.
He said that to me in a round about way...
Said he thought I was wishing he didn't come back....

I told him that is so untrue that it would have been much easier for me to just move on.

But because I do love him

I fought for our relationship harder then I have ever fought for anything in my life
because I thought we were worth saving and that has been much harder then just saying screw this I am done....

At one point I did say to him

If you want to try and destroy me do it to my face not behind my back...

He said now I am trying to destroy you ..

To which I said
You really don't know or understand how hard this has been for me ....
He just looked at me... said nothing

And I do think you are right
To leave this alone for now
and keep up plan A
give him time to think about all of this...
I feel much better getting this all out...
And I did learn a lot from this site
and all of the help I have gotten from the people here
And for that I say
Thank You to all

I've used Viagra, Cialis and Levitra, and generic versions of the same (much easier on the budget). If you compare them to guns, Viagra is like buckshot (need a big dose, but you will likely get the results you want), Cialis is Colt 45 (smaller dosage, you might miss, but if you hit - wham), and Levitra is like a sniper rifle (you will not miss, and it WILL work very effectively). It IS more expensive than Vitamin V though, so I tend to go for V .

I actually started on the ED drugs quite early on (39, I think). I just got tired of not being able to do what I wanted to do, and the more I worried about it, the more things didn't work. So I had a talk with my FWW, told her what I was going to do, and shuffled myself off to the doctor. The discussion with the doctor actually wasn't anywhere near as embarrassing as you'd expect it to be, and I left the office with a sample or two, and boy did my FWW and I have FUN that night... .

I found out later that she started her PA with the OM only a few months after that, grrrr....

sorry to hear about you wife's A

He has talked to the doctor with him it is the blood pressure
thing that is the problem

Turtlehead
I keep checking back to see if you have posted anything
I really like hearing what you have to say
I feel that you really understand where I am at and what is going on...
And that you really understand the married issue
for that I am greatfull

Hi Sunshine

I read your situ and feel you did the right thing talking to your partner the way you did. Its great that you have finally been able to talk to him. Hopefully a real breakthrough comes from it.

From what you wrote I feel your partner really does love you. I do not think he wants to hurt you by withholding intimacy. It seems what he is saying is that his fear of performance is dragging down his libido. Any form of sexual contact seems to bring up this fear causing him to back away.

I was thinking that one thing you could try, is to build up physical contact in ways that are unlikely to be sexual. Something like a shoulder massage, randomly during the day, maybe just for a minute (Always leave them wanting more). This may help him experience low level intimacy without bringing up the fear. The fear would not be there because there is no expectation of performance.

There are other things you could do that are much more intimate but are not leading towards sex and therefore not bringing up the fear. (Sleeping in each others arms is a good one).

Once he becomes comfortable with this level of intimacy, I think he would then be happy to experiment further, because his brain would be reprogrammed not to always connect intimacy with performance.

TY Jack
That is what I have been doing
and a lot of hugs he is not a huggy type of person
He has always been the kind of person that is not touchy touchy..
That is just him ... I am used to that

I know he is trying hard here to meet most of my needs
Now I will take turtles advice and not bring it up again for a while..
At least now he knows how I feel about it...
And we got a lot out into the open which should have been done long ago...

I still feel that what made the big change here
Is him feeling
Ok she is at the end of her rope here that I wouldn't stand for much more...

OK Larry
I am in need of some more advice from you...please
I have done what you have said I needed to do...
But I have kept up the snooping...
Well today he sent the OW a joke no talking just sent the joke to her...
Well I was so bent I didn't answer his email this morning
Then he started calling I didn't answer the calls... He called like 5 times...
then sent another email saying he was really worried that he hadn't heard from me... and that he has been trying to call me..
I needed to cool down and don't want to do a LB....
This is what I want to do

I don't want to let him know I have this pass word..
I will not let him know...
This is the one that he has no clue I have...
So what do I do Now ?????
you have given me very good advice so far...
He has been really good till now...
I still know he doesn't see her...
And my friend sits right next to him at work he even complains on how nosy she is...
She would let me know if anything was going on there
she knows what has went on here....
So how do I handle this ????

HELP