I just read Passionate Marriage last autumn, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it. Its changed a lot for me.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Some people feel the need to remain in denial no matter how clear the issues seem to their partner or to third parties. Clarity is in the eye of the beholder.


I applaud you. Seriously. Not everyone decides to work through their baggage. So far Mrs. Hold and I both chose not to. I am going back into counselling to work on my issues. With the goal of becoming strong enough to leave her.

To my knowledge she has no intention of addressing her issues. She refuses to admit they even exist. I have long since given up hope of motivating her to address them while we remain married. My current hope is that she will choose to address them after we divorce, when the pressure of "giving in" to my requests is removed.


Neither of us is doing much to work through issues. And to the extent we do, we do not do so together, We are not building momentum together. We are building tolerance for separation.

Mrs. Hold seems more content lately. She has been seeking me out for Conversation. She refrains from rejecting physical Affection. Who knows, she might even be willing to consent to occassional sex (although it seems that the absence of pressure for sex is the chief motivator of her happiness).

On the other hand, I am opposed to sex with her. I feel it is a weakness in me to desire sex with her. And I am determined not to give in to that weakness. I told her we will not be having sex again (it has been several months already). She was surprised and seemed somewhat disappointed. But I know it would be too easy for me to feel romantic feelings for her if we had sex. Which would make me vulnerable. And I fear she would use that vulnerability against me.

Many women are uncomfortable with the power of their sexuality. Not nearly enough of them use it to their own and their spouse's advantage. My wife could empower me. But after so many years of her refusing to do so, I would rather be malnourished and frail than to depend on her for sustenance.

I hope that this thread convinces some women not to allow their own marriages to reach the awful place to which mine has fallen. Do not despise your sexual power. Rather offer it as a boon to your husband. If he is a decent man, the blessing will return to you tenfold.

Yes and no. The Harley system does not tell anyone to be selfless. That was a revelation for me when we started counselling with a Harley-trained coach.

Early in our marriage, I basically said to my wife "we should each try to give whatever we have to the other, and trust that the other will give all they have to us." My wife was never comfortable with that system. She always thought marriage should be more of a negotiation.

Harley specifically says not to be selfless. That overgiving leads to resentment. The idea is to strike a balance between Giver and Taker. By using Radical Honesty and POJA.

The problem in my marriage was NOT that my wife desired to negotiate before she consented to meeting my needs. The problem was that in the overwhelming majority of cases, she reneged on her agreements shortly after making them. That destroyed my trust in her. And when trust goes, love swiftly follows.

You don't have to trust that your partner will never be selfish to maintain love for someone. You only have to trust that they will be open and honest. Which is why Harley focuses on Radical Honesty rather than Radical Generosity.

RC,

Well, first off I'll take this moment to complain that I can't search for posts older than two years here! So, I can't merely pull up what I know I wrote some time ago and simply paste it into this thread. Sigh. Okay, I'll do my best to communicate what I learned from Passionate Marriage anew.

First, I'll copy something I found on the web that does a better job of explaining the high level concepts than I ever could:


So, the concepts of marriage as a crucible - a people growing machine, and integrity and differentiation are the key components of what Schnarch writes about. I also found it interesting that Schnarch was one of the first authors I'd read that clearly stated that nothing prepares a person for marriage, only marriage prepares a person for marriage!

First let me try and bullet point what I learned within the context of intimate relationships:

1. Marriage is a crucible - a people growing machine. This is a very important fundamental question - what is the purpose of marriage? It is to grow and expand the two people within the marriage. If you are not interested in personal growth - which is oftentimes painful - then marriage is not for you. He even goes so far as to state that many people choose divorce because they are overly self-centered and refuse to choose to better differentiate themselves - so they simply choose to stay the same - they choose not to grow - and therefore choose divorce.

2. The marital growth process is called differentiation. We have to learn how to "hold onto ourselves" and not violate our own integrity - holding true to our own core values - while also allowing our spouse to consistently become closer to us over time - without losing ourselves.

3. Within the context of an intimate relationship - in this case marriage - people resist the process of differentiation. This resistance produces marital and emotional gridlock sooner or later. Once gridlock sets in - one spouse must choose to better differentiate - at which point the other spouse must choose to better differentiate - or to resist. If resistance goes on for too long - the risk may be the termination of the marriage - because one spouse is limiting the growth of the other spouse (this the risk element described in the quote above).

4. Change introduces uncertainty - an uncertain future - which is why we resist change - we crave our comfort zones. Better differentiating ourselves takes real time and a lot of effort. Differentiation is undertaken when the pain of remaining the same - of not changing and better differentiating ourselves - becomes more painful than the uncertain future that we face by choosing change and diffentiation. Within the context of an intimate relationship - any change introduced or that affects either spouse by definition introduces change into the relationship.

5. The process of differentiation requires balance. We must maintain a balance between staying in the comfort zone and spending time and effort on better differentiating ourselves. Too much time in the comfort zone will eventually lead to implosion of the marriage via some kind of emotional gridlock. Too much time stepping outside of the comfort zone and differentiating can put too much stress on the relationship which can result in the explosion of the marriage - it comes flying apart at the seams due to too much volatility - too much change too quickly. Balance is key.

6. When people with unhealthy self concepts enter into intimate relationships, they are unable to hold onto their own sense of self and quickly "lose" themselves in the relationship which results in emotional fusion (which I define as another word for co-dependency).

There are a fair number of other concepts that Schnarch discusses in his book. To cover all of them here in detail would take too much time.

We all have a "sense of self", or a self concept that defines our core values. We have a natural self centeredness built into us. Schnarch defines self centeredness in a good way in that we need to have a healthy self concept and our corresponding core values defined so that we can remain centered on our own core values when entering into an intimate relationship. If we do not have a healthy sense of self, and therefore we do not have well defined core values, then we tend to look for our value outside of ourselves, to be mirrored back to us through other people or things, on a consistent basis. Since there is a void inside of those who don't have a healthy self concept - these people are constantly looking outside of themselves - or what Schnarch called externalizing our values or an external or reflected sense of self. For people like this, they are what they do, or they are what they eat, or they are they have, or what they don't have, or what they don't do, i.e. their self concept is defined not from the inside out, but from the outside in. As a result, they are always looking to people and things external to them to mirror back what they need to see (a reflected sense of self). When people with poor self concepts enter into an intimate relationship, they quickly lose the ability to "hold onto their sense of self", and end up in what is basically a co-dependent relationship - where they are dependent upon their spouse to mirror what they think they need to see back to them (there's that reflected sense of self again). When their spouse doesn't mirror back what they think they need to see - problems ensue. In other words, if I need to see myself as a nice person - and my spouse doesn't mirror back to me that I'm a nice person - we have a problem. People who can't hold onto themselves when in intimate relationships quickly start to experience emotional fusion with one another and the relationship falls into emotional gridlock. It's not that they aren't emotionally intimate and connected, but rather the co-dependent connection is very unhealthy, and this unhealthy connection produces emotional gridlock. Put another way - there is just as much emotional connection as for couples that are in emotionally healthy intimate relationships - but for couples who have poor self concepts - the emotional connections are co-dependent - and this produces emotional fusion due to their poor self concepts and lack of core values. Their poorly developed self concepts and their constant inability to hold onto their core values within context of their intimate relationship allows both spouses to violate their own sense of integrity. People like this oftentimes say that they hold certain values, but when push comes to shove, they violate their own integrity by behaving counter to what they say their core values are. Behavior that consistently violates their own sense of integrity reinforces an unhealthy sense of self. It has a snowball effect basically - which produces a downward spiral that ultimately results in the destruction of the intimate relationship sooner or later.

Okay, that's about all of the time I have for right now - I'll try and find the time to post more later - or perhaps if anyone has specific questions - that might be the better route to go.

HOLD, I agree. I believe there is a marked difference between being other centered versus selfless, though I realized I never actually mentioned this in my posts! I believe that we inately have a self centeredness as human beings. The Bible even mentions that we need not worry about our self interest - because we will inately take care of ourselves for the most part without any actual effort - we will find a way to eat, to sleep, to survive - without much motivation. Particularly for me, who is admittedly prone to narcissism, it is especially important for me to remain consciously other centered. If I don't, I default to being completely careless and unaware of those around me. I do believe that when we consciously put a focus on ourselves - we become overly self centered - because we inately have it built into us to be self centered - and heaping a conscious focus on self on top of our inate self centeredness produces an unhealthy imbalance. This is of course MHO, YMMV.

I would also submit that your marital circumstances and specifically some of the issues that remain unresolved for your W translate into one of those "extenuating circumstances" that was mentioned in a previous post. So, most of what I'm describing here is not applicable to your M.


Further evidence of extenuating circumstances...


I tend to use a superset of the MB system, because I've come to believe that that adherence to any one system of order by definition introduces inherent limitations into relationship. While any good system initially helps from the perspective of introducing order and providing a framework, that same order and framework can limit and even prevent spiritual and emotional growth beyond a certain point. Again, YMMV. Also, lastly, having a tendency toward narcissism means that I am by definition sensitized to the necessity to consciously remain generous. So, what I consider generous, many others may consider "normal". I hope this makes sense too!

JCat: I have been in that "feeling stuck and ineffective" mode. I am beginning to realize that things are less black and white as we (women) see them and if we could "try to manage less" and accept more rather than inject our feelings into everything, we might see that our spouses are naturally turning to us for SF just the way God made them. SF becomes a vehicle for building the foundation of our marriage than "just following along". SF gives them the "LOVE" feeling while "reaching the SF goal" on our Hs parts; give US the "LOVE" feeling including relationship and not just foreplay!

We can feel that we have changed when we know as women; that we are just acting HOPING that we will "want to" meet our H's SF need. We may think that we have changed when we commit to meeting his SF need...we have really changed when we "want to meet his SF" and not feel resentful if he has not yet met mine.

I have realized that it is just so easy to make it "his problem" (when it should be "our blessing")that he needs me sexually; though in my case, I am very thankful that he is sexually healthy and that our SF needs have literally "glued" us together to whether other storms in marriage. To them, if there is no SF, there is no love.

Like with us; I think that they are looking for stability and honesty; if we are just trying to change and don't quite have it in the "wholehearted" mode yet; they sense it.

One of the biggest things for me on reading this book was realising how much my husband and I were actually projecting to each other, pretending to be something we weren't in order to stay close to each other. I guess this is what is meant by emotional fusion?

We were each hiding things from each other, I've made a big effort this year to stay true to myself. To be clear on who I am and what I think and who I want to be, and to be clear to my husband the effect that he has on me.

We are having to learn each other newly in some ways as we had areas where we had completely inaccurate ideas of who the other one was. We're still needing lots of work on this, I only have a really patchy idea of how my husband thinks and feels about most things because of the degree of deception that went on before in the name of staying close.

I have always had the "wholehearted" mode, even when I was doing the wrong things. Don't know if it gets across to her. Perhaps this is an area I need to look into.

Here's an excerpt from Schnarch himself that probably does a better job of explaining what you're referring to here than I ever could. The second paragraph in particular deals specifically with what you've mentioned here:


So, in your case, for a long time you probably grew to only display parts of yourself that your partner will accept and validate yes?


Your description lines up well with emotional fusion. Because you either presented only certain parts of yourself or may have even falsely presented certain aspects of yourself in an effort to achieve other-validated intimacy, emotional fusion occurs because your working from the outside in, not the inside out. Harley would state this same issue as not being radically honest and open. We have to be brave enough to be our true selves even if it could mean the end of the marriage. It is somewhat ironic that in an effort to create a good marriage we in essence try and become someone we can never be, which is exactly what contributes to emotional fusion which produces emotional gridlock and eventually results in the termination of the marriage. All along we chose to be less than honest and open - yet we expect good results. Does this really make sense? More often than not, when we choose truth, when we embrace radically honesty, in the short term there may be a lot of pain, but longer term there's a real opportunity for a good marriage. As the old adage says, above all be true to thine self.

From a previous posting. To those women who think it is only about the act or suspect is it only about the act, here are two articles which almost tore my heart out when I read them. They were talking about me completely. My suspicion is that they talk about MOST men, some more than others, but most men none-the-less.


http://www.marriagemissions.com/to-wives-why-is-sex-so-important/comment-page-1/

To Wives:Why is sex so important?


What kinds of emotional needs does your sexual interest meet for your man? In written survey comments and in my interviews, I noticed two parallel trends—the great benefits a fulfilling sex life creates in a man’s inner life and, conversely, the wounds created when lovemaking is reluctant or lacking.

Benefit #1: Fulfilling sex makes him feel loved and desired

Not surprisingly, the first thing surfaced from the survey comments was that having a regular, mutually enjoyed sex life was critical to the man’s feeling of being loved and desired. One eloquent plea captured it perfectly:

I wish that my wife understood that making a priority of meeting my intimacy needs is the loudest and clearest way she can say, “You are more important to me than anything else in the world.” It is a form of communication that speaks more forcefully, with less room for misinterpretation, than any other.

The reason why this message is needed is that many men—even those with close friendships— seem to live with a deep sense of loneliness that is quite foreign to us oh-so-relational women. And making love is the purest salve for that loneliness.

One man told me, “I feel like I go out into the ring every day and fight. It’s very lonely. That’s why, when the bell rings, I want my wife to be there for me.”

Another related that sentiment to the power of fulfilling sex. “A man really does feel isolated, even with his wife. But in making love, there is one other person in this world that you can be completely vulnerable with and be totally accepted and non-judged. It is a solace that goes very deep into the heart of a man.

This is one reason why some men may make advances at times that seem the furthest from sexual. One woman relayed a story about her husband wanting to make love after a funeral for a close relative. Making love was a comfort and a way of being wrapped in her love.

Benefit #2: Fulfilling sex gives him confidence

Your desire for him goes beyond making him feel wanted and loved. Your desire is a bedrock form of support that gives him power to face the rest of his daily life with a sense of confidence and well-being.

By now most of us have seen the television commercials for Viagra in which a man’s colleagues for friends repeatedly stop him and ask what’s “different” about him. New haircut? Been working out? Promotion? Nope, the man tells them all, with a little smile.

One man I interviewed brought up those ads. “Every man immediately understands what that commercial is saying —it’s all about guys feeling good about themselves. The ad portrays a truth that all men intuitively recognize. They’re more confident and alive when their sex life is working.”

Once my eyes were opened to this truth, I realized how often I’d heard the “man code” for this fact, but failed to understand it. When men had told me they “felt better” when they got more sex, I had just assumed they meant physically better.

But as one husband told me, “What happens in the bedroom really does affect how I feel the next day at the office.” Another wrote, “Sex is a release of a day-to-day pressures and seems to make everything else better.”

Wound #1: “If she doesn’t want to, I feel incredible rejection.”

As much as men want sex, most of them would rather go out and clip the hedges in the freezing rain than make love with a wife who appears to be responding out of duty. My husband, Jeff, explained: “The guy isn’t going to be rejected by the hedges. And that’s the issue. If she’s just responding because she has to, he’s being rejected by his wife.”

Again, keeping in mind that what he wants most is for you to desire him, try to see what he wants most is for you to desire him, try to see this rejection issue from the man’s point of view. If we agree, but don’t make an effort to get really engaged with the man we love, he hears us saying, “You’re incapable of turning me on even when you try, and I really don’t care about what matters deeply to you.” On the other hand if we don’t agree at all, but throw out the classic “Not tonight, dear,” he hears, “You’re so undesirable that you can’t compete with a pillow… and I really don’t care about what matters deeply to you.”

Although we might just be saying we don’t want sex at that point in time, he hears the much more painful message that we don’t want him.

Here’s what the men themselves said on the survey:

• “She doesn’t understand that I feel loved by sexual caressing, and if she doesn’t want to, I feel incredible rejection.”

• “When she says no, I feel that I am REJECTED, ‘No’ is not no to sex—as she might feel. It is no to me as I am. And I am vulnerable as I ask or initiate. It’s plain and simple rejection.”

• “She doesn’t understand how even her occasional dismissals make me feel less desirable. I can’t resist her. I wish that I, too, were irresistible. She says I am. But her ability to say no so easily makes it hard to believe.”

This feeling of personal rejection, and a sense that his wife doesn’t really desire him, tends to lead a man into darker waters.

Wound #2: your lack of desire can send him into depression.

If your sexual desire gives your husband a sense of well-being and confidence, you can understand why an ongoing perception that you don’t desire him would translate into a nagging lack of confidence, withdrawal, and depression.

The men I talked to scoffed at my tentative suggestion that a string of similar rejections wouldn’t necessarily mean that their wives were rejecting them as men. They warned that any woman sending those signals would undermine the loving environment she wants most because, as one man said, “She is going to have one depressed man on her hands.”

A man can’t just turn off the physical and emotional importance of sex, which is why its lack can be compared to the emotional pain you’d feel if your husband simply stopped talking to you. Consider the painful words of this truly deprived husband—words that other men, upon reading them, call “heartbreaking”:

We’ve been married for a long time. I deeply regret and resent the lack of intimacy of nearly any kind for the duration of our marriage. I feel rejected, ineligible, insignificant, lonely, isolated, and abandoned as a result. Not having the interaction I anticipated prior to marriage is like a treasure lost and irretrievable. It causes deep resentment and hurt within me. This in turn fosters anger and feelings of alienation.

…If you view sex as a purely physical need, it might indeed seem comparable to sleep. But once you realize that your man is actually saying, “This is essential to my feeling of being loved and desired by you, and is critical to counteract my stress, my fears, and my loneliness,” well… that suddenly puts it in a different category. So how might you respond?

First, know that you’re responding to a tender heart hiding behind all that testosterone. If at all possible, respond to his advances with your full emotional involvement, knowing that you’re touching his heart. But if responding physically seems out of the question, let your words be heart words—reassuring, affirming, adoring. Do everything in your power—using words and actions your husband understands—to keep those pangs of personal rejection from striking the man you love. Leave him in no doubt that you love to love him.

And remember, if you do respond physically but do it just to “meet his needs” without getting engaged, you’re not actually meeting his needs. In fact, you might as well send him out to clip the hedges. So enjoy God’s intimate gift, and make the most of it!

…I recognize that some women might very much wish that they could respond more wholeheartedly to their husband’s sexual needs, but feel stopped in their tracks for various personal reasons. I don’t want to add any more frustration. I do, however, want to encourage you to get the personal or professional help you need to move forward. The choice to pursue healing will be worth it, both for you and the man you love.

Make sex a priority

An excerpt from a Today’s Christian Woman article captures this issue—and provides an important challenge to change our thinking. The author starts by admitting that although her husband really wanted to make love more often, it “just wasn’t one of my priorities.” She then describes a subsequent revelation:

I felt what I did all day was meet other people’s needs. Whether it was caring for my children, working in ministry, or washing my husband’s clothes, by the end of the day I wanted to be done need-meeting. I wanted my pillow and a magazine. But God prompted me: “Are the ‘needs’ you meet for your husband the needs he wants met?”

If your daughters weren’t perfectly primped, he didn’t complain. If the kitchen floor needed mopping, he didn’t say a word. And if he didn’t have any socks to wear, he simply threw them in the washer himself.

I soon realized I regularly said “no” to the one thing he asked of me. I sure wasn’t making myself available to my husband by militantly adhering to my plan for the day… Would the world end if I didn’t get my tires rotated? I’d been focused on what I wanted to get done and what my children needed, I’d cut my husband out of the picture.

Are the many things that take our time and energy truly as important as this one? Now would be a good time to reevaluate priorities with the help of our husbands so they know that we are taking this seriously.

… Having heard from so many men on this, I would urge you: Don’t discount it. It’s more important to him—and to your relationship and therefore your own joy in marriage —than you can imagine.

Now that you understand the tender places in your husband’s heart, hopefully you have developed compassion for him and the way he is wired.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The above article comes from the terrific book, FOR WOMEN ONLY… What you Need to Know about the Inner Lives of Men -by Shaunti Feldhahn, published by Multnomah http://www.multnomahbooks.com. This is a GREAT book (which has much more insight on this and many other subjects) to help women learn about what motivates men and their thought processes behind their actions (or non-actions). Shaunti had interviewed over 1000 men in researching this book. As a result she found that she didn’t know the mind of her husband and others like she thought she did. So what she does in this book is reveal the findings her research brought out so that other women can better understand the men in their lives (i.e. husbands, sons, dads, brothers, friends, etc.) which will help them to better interact with them.

Shaunti makes it very clear that this isn’t a “male-bashing” book. It’s also not written to justify what men believe, it’s written to reveal what they believe. As she says, not all men think the same — there are always exceptions to everything. But as Shaunti explains, this book will help women to better understand most men and most likely her husband.

It helps women to see how differently we’re wired psychologically. When you better understand that, you’re better able to work with things the way they ARE rather than how you think they should be. As she says, “I hope that this book is not just about learning fascinating new secrets. The more we understand the men in our lives, the better we can support and love them in the way they need to be loved. In other words, this revelation is supposed to change and improve us.”

There is also a For Women Only Discussion Guide available, written by Shaunti Feldhahn along with Lisa Rice, which is published by Multnomah http://www.multnomahbooks.com. It’s designed to be used by book clubs, in small groups, or even for having a one-on-one dialogue with the man of your life. Many women, after reading the For Women Only book may wonder, “So what do I do with the information I’ve just been given?” This discussion guide is designed to answer that question. It contains personal stories, questions, and situational case studies to help equip you to apply the truths you learn in your own life.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/mp/2002/summer/4.36.html



How Men Really Think about Sex
Discover 3 key insights into the mystery of male sexuality
Paula Rinehart, MSW

Ed sits across from me, during our counseling session, blowing the steam off coffee too hot to drink. A confident man in his late thirties, he searches hard for words that explain the unexplainable—why his marriage is ailing.

Really, it's a bit of a mystery to him. Other parts of his life are trucking along, he assures me. The small insurance agency he started ten years ago has taken off nicely. His son is finally getting to play quarterback on the high school team. He and his wife recently remodeled an old home. Running his fingers through thinning hair, he jokes about a receding hairline and how badly he needs to exercise. Finally, he gets to his marriage. No, things with Anne aren't all that good, he admits. They just haven't been on the same wavelength for some time. He has no idea how to make their marriage better. He hates to be in my office—it makes him feel too much like a failure. But he needs somebody to whom he can talk, someone he can trust.

I edge closer to the question I know I have to work into the conversation. "So … how's your sex life?" I ask.

Ed turns quiet. His eyebrow registers surprise at my forthrightness. "Well," he finally admits, "sex is a real problem." Ed looks back down at the floor and takes a gulp of coffee.

I know better than to retreat at this point.

"Sex is a bit of a problem," I say. "So how does that affect you?" I ask. Ed starts to talk now, as if someone waved a green light, and I have to work to keep up with all he's saying.

One of the unexpected gifts for me in turning fifty is that, suddenly it seems, I've become a "safe" woman. The men I see in the context of my family counseling practice talk far more freely about their lives. They confide their secrets. They actually put into words how they feel. Especially about sex. I hear about the male experience in ways I never heard before, and I think, I wish I could have understood where men are coming from earlier in my life. Maybe that was my problem: I just couldn't hear the longing, the emotional need beneath the raw physical desire. Or maybe there are other reasons that a man doesn't talk sooner. Perhaps life itself puts a sock in his mouth and he knows he dare not come across as anything but utterly confident, self-possessed, and brimming with testosterone. The fewer the words, then, the better.

In any event, what I hear from men has opened the world of understanding how they actually experience their lives—their sexual lives. That understanding, I realize now, holds the key to the empathy that brings a husband and wife together in ways that feel good and right to them both.

1. Sexual Identity

The best metaphor to describe a man's psyche is that of a seamless fabric. Men see themselves as a whole entity. If they feel good about their sex life then that sense of adequacy spills over into other important parts of their experience. And conversely, if their sex life is floundering, then the rest cannot be too far behind, they reason. Men have much less ability to confine their sexual experience into one small part of the whole.

Ed is a case in point. He claims that inadequacy follows him around like a dog nipping at his heels. He may be great in a boardroom—but he's not all that good in bed, at least by his assessment of his wife's desire for him. In his mind, it's only a matter of time until others discover that he's not as competent as he's cracked up to be. He tends to measure himself, however unfortunately, by how physically connected he feels to his wife. Sex is the clearest language he knows and it speaks volumes to the whole of him.

While a woman might say she's happy in her marriage even if the sex isn't all that great and hasn't been for a long time, her husband would tend to say their marriage is in jeopardy. There is much more resting on the sexual connection—for most men, anyway—because sex says more to a man about himself.


2. Sexual Affirmation

Clark rises at the crack of dawn to iron the police uniform he proudly wears into town each day. There is something about a sharp, crisp shirt that helps him face the challenge of his job. He never knows what will come his way—domestic violence, a routine traffic stop where someone pulls a gun, a child lost on streets that aren't safe. He just knows he has to be ready to make the right call in an instant.

He's encouraged that, so far, no negative reports have been filed on his performance. One slip on his part could brand his record for years—that's the downside of guarding the public, he admits. Clark is up for a promotion this spring and with a third child on the way, he needs all the favor he can get.

Clark would tell you that a good word from his police sergeant is music to his ears. He loves the work he does. But as he crawls into bed with his wife at night, he's admits that nothing can touch what a warm reception from her means to him. Somehow her touch makes the rest of the world go away—at least for awhile.

I have wondered, along with many women I'm sure, why sex seems to mean so much to a man. How does a tryst so basic, so fundamentally simple, cut through all the underbrush of a man's life and touch something at the core of him? George Gilder, in his wonderful book, Men and Marriage, puts words to this mystery. Gilder calls women the "sexually superior" gender. By that he means that our bodies mirror more about being female. We can give birth and breast-feed children—glorious acts of power and influence unavailable to men. Our bodies can actually house people; they are versatile. Only one sexual act—intercourse—reflects to a man that indeed, he is a man. And in that act, performance is vital. A woman can relate to a man sexually whether she is into the experience or not. If a man cannot perform sexually, it's a "show-stopper," as they say. Gilder writes:

Men must perform. … The man is less secure sexually than the woman because his sexuality is dependent on action, and he can act sexually only through a precarious process difficult to control. For men the desire for sex is not simply a quest for pleasure. It is an indispensable test of identity (emphasis mine).
Every day a man walks into a world that says, essentially, "Prove yourself. Prove that as a man, you have something worthwhile to offer." In ways both blatant and subtle, a man is evaluated and measured and stacked up against the next guy all day long. The big question in his mind, conscious or not, is whether he is man enough. Does he have what it takes to win the contract, win the woman, win the war? Sex, then, is not the only route to affirmation—but it is surely the quickest and most direct one for a man. It is a confirmation so deep that it is far more soul-ish than physical in nature. Sex means more to a man because, indeed, he hears in it a message about himself.

The way this plays out in a marriage is that when a man is turned down in his overture for sexual intimacy, it feels more personal than seems reasonable to either party. It feels like rejection. When it comes to matters sexual, a man tends to lose his normal hold on objectivity. Other situations he can see clearly. If his wife speaks irritably at dinner after she's had a hard day—it's not about him. If she overspent on her credit card, then she's got a problem she's got to solve. But when he's denied a bid for sexual intimacy, it feels to him as though he, himself, his very person, is being rejected. And only after he works to get past that awful feeling does he stand a chance of hearing that his wife actually does, in fact, have a splitting headache. This is, at least, the internal process that many men go through.


3. Sexual Angst

Each conversation I've had with the men I've counseled brought big "ah-ha" moments for me as I've listened to them talk about their encounters with sexual angst. When a man chooses a woman to marry, he knows he is limiting his sexual options to her alone. In the arms of this one woman, he rests the most emotionally vulnerable aspect of his being.

In talking to couples, a woman's pain in a relationship comes out clearly, and usually rather quickly. She longs (and rightly so) for a man who will truly hear her and understand what she's up against. "I bare my soul to my husband and he just stares at me blankly and slowly starts to edge out of the room," a woman may complain. You can sense the pain in the betrayal and disappointment she feels. It's nearly palpable sometimes. But often the same woman will miss entirely the irony of her situation. Her husband feels the same pain just as poignantly—only his sense of being overlooked, not wanted, not attended to is sexual.

A major breakthrough in a couple's life happens when they let their personal pain guide them to the heart of the other person. The awful way I feel when my husband backs out of an important conversation is a window into the way he feels when his sexual life goes begging. The pain we feel, then, can tutor and motivate us to reach out and touch the other person in the manner for which they long. And wounds long festering can start to heal, bit by tiny bit.

The great danger zone in a marriage is when we withhold anything in our power to give that would bless the other person. Perhaps that's why the Bible encourages couples to make sure that sexual love is given freely. "Stop depriving one another," the apostle Paul says, "except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer" (1 Corinthians 7:5, NASB). In other words, don't let your sexual life degenerate to a place where either of you feels that the other person could give love yet chooses to withhold it.

I am grateful for the window into male sexuality that I've been afforded. It helps me sense a little more how much God intends sex to be a physical representation—the model of a spiritual mystery that we will understand one day in the presence of the Lord. For now, we have an experience that bonds us for life with the heart of another human being. We have a frame that holds us together when the days grow dark, and there are no words strong enough to make everything all right. We have a place of shelter, healing, passion, and dare I say it, grace.

-----------------------------

Paula Rinehart is a counselor in Raleigh, North Carolina, and author of numerous books, including her most recent, Strong Women, Soft Hearts (W Publishing) to be released in July.

Sorry... I was cutting and pasting to another thread... and realized that I inadvertantly pasted to the 'cutting' thread instead.

Thank you, cant for starting this thread !

I'm posting on this for no other reason but to keep it on the 1st couple of thread pages.

Cant gave us ladies a little bit of insight to the male mind, soul however you want to explain it.

I for one needed this wakeup call! It explained a lot of what my H has been trying to tell me for years. I didn't listen nor did I ask questions to understand it better.

I also identified with a lot of the other ladies posts. This is a extremely important subject I for one could learn a lot more about & how to deal with the burden of household issues to meet his needs more.

Because at the end of the day after his needs are met the laundry is still there, cooking needs to be done, etc etc etc. And it's all still there waiting for me.

So yes sex was never a priority it was another chore to be done.

I would like to change this thought process with a lot of other things.

Suggestions or thoughts , feelings Please !

Speaking from personal experience - If sex is a chore, you are probably not giving your spouse honest feedback about what you like.

Stop it.

Chris, you should really stop beating around the bush - ha!

I'm just being silly, in case it doesn't come across well via posting

All I can say is that I believe THIS... the lack of SF... led to my hardest feelings during our marriage.

We are getting a divorce...

There were other things which were problematic, however, in truth this made me feel so neglected, that they paled in comparison. She might have even been doing MORE in other areas than I could see, however, she so neglected the part of my ENs that I truly needed in order to FEEL LOVED, that I am truly sorry for her. She might have been doing very well in some areas, I just don't know. I have tried to see them, but really can't. However, the MAIN area which really broke me was the NEGLECT I felt with our interactions concerning SF.

So ladies... I feel for you. You who feel blocked, distant, unyielding, angry, etc. All your feelings are perfectly valid. For you ladies who need MORE in order to do this... I can understand and your needs are valid. My only thought is that if you want a perfect world before you provide this or rather ENJOY this with your husband, you might be more likely to be looking at a divorce than a happy marriage.

This need, for me, was so neglected, and I can't think of a better term than neglect, that everything else was colored. It is the ONE PLACE in which a man cannot go elsewhere in some fashion and have this need met in some way. So... I feel for you, I really do, but make sure you are putting your time and effort where it will be doing the most good.

I don't know how to tell you to do something you don't want to do... but all I can say is the ultimate alternative may be that you are doing EVERYTHING alone.

God Bless

I'm quite shy LOL!

Can'tfigure, for anyone, man or woman, who had SF as one of their top needs, I think your post rings true.

I can decide never to do laundry again, and that is fine, but going around naked will be the consequence. I can decide not to pay my electric bill, but sitting in the dark will be the consequence. I can practice civil disobedience, but going to jail may well be the consequence. I can neglect my spouse's top needs, but there will always - always - be a consequence.

I recently joined and have been lurking, reading, just checking things out, but when I read this thread I had to respond.

I was one of those wives that tried...really truly tried to give my XH the SF that he needed. Problem was for him when he was with me it wasn't an emotional need. I could feel - actually, literally feel - that he was not connecting emotionally with me through sex. He could have been having sex with anyone, and probably was actually. He honestly made me feel that I was no more than a prostitute to him.

It hadn't always been that way, but for whatever reason he became dissatisfied, but when he talked to me about wanting more it was with an attitude that there was something wrong with me because I wasn't "enough" to keep him happy. He didn't talk to me, didn't listen to me, and only really touched me if he wanted sex. But even during sex it was all about HIM...he wouldn't wait until I was turned on. He actually would begin his own SF at the point that it was painful for me, but didn't care.

I tried to get him to show me love again. I tried everything, including continuing SF with him even when I wasn't fulfilled.

Eventually this left such an emotional hole inside me that I simply couldn't perform SF anymore. It hurt too much, physically and emotionally.

SO was his need for SF so important that I should have continued to try to meet it and fail miserably? Cause if it was that important...more important than my EN for any kind of love, support or affection from him...well to dang bad.

All I can say Melissa is that it doesn't sound as though SF was an EMOTIONAL need for him. At least not how I believe an Emotional need is talked about here on the site.

All things can be done for the 'wrong' reasons. Sex can be criminal or it can be simply for procreation OR... as it is discussed and how I feel about it here, it can be the best way to 'connect' and feel love from a spouse.

I am sorry about your circumstances, and I truly do NOT believe that you were wrong in being unable to respond. But to me, in your post, it doesn't sound as though you were unable to respond to an EN... it sounds as though you were unable to respond to abuse. At least your written perception of how YOU felt HE was feeling during.

That is a completely different ballgame.