I understand. I am sure Mrs. Hold feels this way. I agree it would be healthier for me to do so.

Still, I don't ever see it happening. Not justifying. Not saying that is OK. Just saying it is.

I see it as a weakness in myself. I accept it is destroying any chance I might otherwise have for happiness. Yet I do not see myself ever choosing to base my happiness on anything else.

Why the heck do you think I am so depressed?!?! I know what I need to do to be happy. And I refuse to do it. THAT is tremendously depressing. And it is not her fault. It is mine.

Hold, have you ever combined AD's with work with a really good CBT therapist? I really believe you can make some serious changes in your outlook and choose to find some happiness, you maybe just need some better tools than what you have right now.

Mr Hold,

Can I admit something to you?

I avoided your thread because I felt you were obsessed with getting sex from your wife and it bugged me because I am female I guess... I felt you were so focused on the sex you weren't getting that you were not willing to fully clean up your side of the street so that there would be a safe environment for your wife to be sexual with you. The way I see it now... I just do not fully comprehend what you are feeling. There has to be more to your experiences. I want to understand.

For example, why are you fixated on your wife in the way you recently described? Do you have activities in your life (apart from your wife and maarige) which you are involved in...which give your days / existence meaning? (Not advocating IB, just asking about you ) Also, the word depressed has been used in your thread several times. Are you actually Depressed (300.4)? If you are, what (if anything) are you doing about it?

I apologize if these issues have already been covered, but I haven't been here long enough to know the details.

... ((Taking cover))

Why are you taking cover? CBT has its definite pros over other types of therapy IMO. I went through a 10 year period of debilitating panic attacks to the point where I was almost house-bound. The docs wanted to medicate it out of me with Xanax, etc. It was ONLY through CBT that I overcame it.

LOL! You missed the situation I got into with ML about CBT yesterday didn't you? Click here if you're bored.

ETA: CBT helped me as I was in the initial stages of implementing MB. It helped me by showing me how to help myself. In my experience CBT is awesome.

Chris, I finally just ducked out of that particular conversation rather than lock horns, but I maintain that *properly applied* CBT is *NOT* against MB principles, but actually *enhances* them. I take the approach on the forums here of stating my position, and the reasons why, and then leaving it. I will not lock horns with people who keep repeating themselves and quoting the same material over and over even when it does not address what I've said.

Tried CBT. Whether the person was good or not is hard to judge from the inside. Made no difference.

Everyone tells me to choose to view things differently. To stop seeing everything negatively and to stop being so pessimistic. To take action to work toward my goals. To behave differently even if I don't feel differently.

After 30 years of therapy (some of which was CBT) and drugs and posting on internet forums, I don't see myself ever choosing differently. I don't believe I am capable of changing. I don't have any hope that things can get better if I change my behavior. I think I am doomed to failure. And that is a self-fulfilling prophesy.

I choose to place all the burden on my wife. To avoid taking responsibility for myself. I don't see myself ever choosing differently. Not even after she leaves.


This is true. I am not willing to clean up my side of the street. That is why I no longer claim to be applying MB. MB would require me to clean up my stuff.


I have other activities. My job. On the board of my temple. Nothing that gives my life meaning.


Yes. Nothing.

This is my opinion and it has been my personal experience. I do not feel I would have been so successful implementing MB without the CBT.


And I need to follow your example. After that experience I have learned a very valuable lesson which I will be using from this point forward.

Mr Hold,

Since you know all of these things you also have the power to use that knowldege for a better life and a better marriage...provided that you actually want a better life and a better marriage.

After reading what you wrote, I am not even sure that you want those things.

I'm not a "professional" but after reading what you wrote, I believe that Mrs Hold could have sex with you every day twice a day and you would still be unhappy.


I have a more simple question:
If you are not doing MB, then why are you here Mr Hold?

This is one of the few things in life that holds the pain at bay for a time.

I am tired. I am afraid. And you are correct. I don't want happiness badly enough to overcome my fear and exhaustion. I have lost hope. I do not believe I am capable of improvement. Or that any possible improvement could result in happiness.

Years ago more sex would have made me happy. It did. On the rare occassions we had sex, I was happy. That was back when I still had hope. Drove Mrs. Hold nuts. Now, I agree with you. No amount of sex would make me happy. I am too far down into the depression. What the sex might do, however, is give me hope. That change is possible. In which case, perhaps I could rouse myself into action.

Many people do not fix their marriage until after an affair. Does not excuse the affair. Still, the marriage always needed fixing. It would have been in each person's own interest to fix the marriage before the affair. Saved both of them much pain. But sometimes people won't take action to build something new until they blow up the old place.

I don't see myself ever choosing to work on my marriage (or my life) until Mrs. Hold provides more sex or one of us leaves. Sometimes I even hope she will have an affair. Anything to get us out of this rut. I cannot climb out. The walls are too steep. So could somebody please throw down a hand grenade? Or set off a C4 charge? If it doesn't kill me, maybe it would blow a hole in the wall or blow me up out of the trench.

Chris: Regardless of where Hold is in his personal life, I think he has a great grasp of the MB program and his advice to others on this forum is very good!

I understand that, but my question is still: Why is he here?

knowing what this forum is for...

Mr Hold, thanks for being honest and sharing your feelings.

ITA with what OH just said.

One thing that I think hasn't been mentioned lately is that hold DID do his part, "clean up his side of the street" for quite a long time, IIRC; and Mrs. Hold made promises but didn't follow through. The MB "next step" is Plan B, something that Hold is not willing to do at the moment, because he wants to maintain the marriage for the kids' sake.

I can *totally* see how that would be depressing. Sure there may be a "solution" but at a price that he isn't willing to pay. The old rock and a hard place.

I don't think I'd be willing to go to Plan B just because my spouse doesn't meet my biggest EN (Conversation).

The only other option that I can see is to keep trying to motivate the other person; to be H&O about how you *really* feel, about how much it affects you when your EN isn't met; and about your feelings of resentment, etc.

Hold, I think you are getting much better at that. And I think your W is starting to respond. It may not be as hopeless as it feels right now.

Beware that you haven't gotten so attached to your resentment that you cling to it. I know it's scary to feel vulnerable. It's ok, you can do it. You've already taken some of the hardest steps. You may not see how far you've come, but you have come a long way. IMHO.

This morning we were watching tv and someone said the words "buns" in relation to hot dogs and I said "you know there is only one set of buns I am interested in". She said "yes, I know" and HELD OUT HER HAND FOR ME TO HOLD. Amazing. Instead of chastising me for obsessing about her body, she reached out to me after I complimented her butt!!!!!

I told her to hold that thought until after I get home from work.


I worry about that all the time. I love my resentment. Resentment is my constant companion. She never rejects me. It will be hard to give her up.

But if Mrs. Hold reaches out to me, I must.

I totally understand. If I don't watch out, I can still fall back into resentment. It feels ... good, in a strange (unhealthy) way... like scratching a mosquito bite until it bleeds and hurts? Well, an imperfect analogy.

Anyway, kudos to you for still being enough "in the game" to be able to say the following:


I'm very happy for you, that there seems to be such progress!

There does seem to be something different in the air. Nothing sexual, but a different attitude on her part. For years I complimented her frequently. She disdained the compliments. And never reciprocated. So I stopped complimenting her. Recently she complained that I never say anything nice anymore. So I have gone back to "sweet talking" her.

Lately she smiles when I say something nice. And sometimes she even says something nice back! The kids have noticed. D13 said something like "Dad is still the king of the sweet talkers, but Mom is definitely upping her game."

I always express appreciation when she says something complimentary. I am trying to accept it at face value and not give in to the resentful thought "yeah, but if you really felt that way, why aren't you jumping my bones?"

I understand about the resentment. I am dealing w/ some health problems. My husband was trying to help me by reviewing a list of specialists I'd found on the web. He was reading out the info. I was running late to work. I was as usual, distracted, preoccupied, feeling lousy, stressed out about work, money and a whole host of other things. I *could* have said something like "honey, I'm so glad you are trying to help me. Can we set aside a time later tonight to talk about this. I just can't concentrate right now; I'm trying to leave before the school bus comes down the street and I get stuck behind it."

(he knew all of this but restating it couldn't have hurt...except that I would have resented it, so I didn't!)

At some point he said to me, "I'm trying to help, please don't push me away" And I replied with an abbreviated version of above. Then I suggested that I call him on my way to work. He replied "don't bother. I don't want to talk about this by phone. Or email."

So I said 'you are pushing away!"

This was after my drive by O&H moment last night when I told him his AOs pushed me away.

I probably could do MY part much better if I just shoved the resentment and anger up on a shelf but I don't.

So in that regard, Hold, I do see where you're coming from.

Hard to change ingrained habits.

sorry to t/j