Awesome post, Kayla. I agree with you, I am not offended by Vibrissa's post, but I am very offended by those who minimize evil and define deviancy down. The Hitler analogy aptly demonstrates how very depraved and offensive this is in practice. There is nothing as offensive as moral blindness, except for the act itself.

I think not only about those who worked for Hitler, but those who knew that what was happening was wrong, but looked away and went about their lives, not wanting to get involved. It reminds me of the people (like a couple of friends I had) who knew my cheating was wrong, but didn't want to "judge" me. It reminds me of the responsibility that those who KNOW what is right have to NOT turn a blind eye to what the people closest to us may be doing. Hitler didn't need a shoulder to cry on....he needed to be STOPPED.

Amen, amen, amen.....

NED- I truly am sorry I offended you. That really wasn't my intention. Kayla really hit the nail on the head. I was really just trying to show that somewhere you have to draw the line: good is good and bad is bad. Moral relativism will just damage our society.

I was intending something more along the lines of A Modest Proposal, where Swift uses something outrageous and horrible to bring up a serious point in their society.

And this



I think we as a society could benefit from realizing the horrors of adultery and the destruction they wreck on lives, especially the innocent. If we realized there is no rationalization, romanticizing or justification for it - if we see it for the horror it is then maybe people would take a stand and DO something about it when they see it happening instead of turning a blind eye. I wish someone had stepped in and stopped my mother before she wrecked my childhood.

Again, I apologize - I wasn't trying to make light of the holocaust or offend. I'm sorry.

NED, Vibrissa was essentially making a point about morality and ethics that I have seen made many, many times in serious, standard, academic debates. She wasn't merely "joking about genocide." She was point out that right and wrong really do exist and addressing a serious moral question. What she said serves to reinforce the fact that genocide was horribly wrong and doesn't minimize it in any way. She has no reason to feel shame that I can see here.

People have been seriously analyzing the Nuremberg Defense for many, many years. Essentially the Nuremberg Defense is "I am still a good person even though my behavior is morally wrong; my behavior does not render me an evil person because I was engaging in accepted behavior (ordered by my superiors)." And the response to it is exactly what Vibrissa is saying: it is your behavior, your actions, and nothing else, that renders you "good" or "bad." Genocide is unequivocally bad, and people who argue that behavior doesn't render you "bad" are essentially arguing that genocide is okay. It is they who are saying something offensive, not Vibrissa.

People have been making this point since probably before Vibrissa was born; she just happens to have been the first person to bring it to you.

If I may...?

Over the past (almost) two decades as an active member of A.A., I have seen a lot of the "tough love" that got me straightened out tossed to the wayside, replaced by a lot of "hand-holding, hanky-wringing" enabling behavior. I have actually heard people in meetings tell others, "Oh, it's OK that you had a relapse - we're here for you when you choose to return."

Say what?

NO! It's NOT OKAY! Getting "back" into recovery is not a given. Many people who relapse DIE as a result!

Fewer and fewer people seem to stand up and tell the newcomer: Recovery is possible, but it takes a lot of honesty, openness, willingness and hard work! Recovery is the hardest "gift" one can receive. No wonder the membership of A.A. has essentially "flatlined." And why there is a lot of "belt-tightening" at all levels of the organization.

I use A.A. as an example because it's an organization that in many ways is a microcosm of Western society. It is based on spiritual, moral principles. It steadfastly maintains its lack of affiliation, knowing that "he who pays the piper calls the tune."

My point is that even A.A. has "devolved" in its stance. The basic textbook of A.A. often states that its purpose is to help alcoholics achieve a relationship with God. Today, that seems to have taken a back seat to the mantra, "Just don't drink and go to meetings."

The point of this long, rambling screed is that it seems everywhere we turn, people have gotten scared of "offending" anyone. Even when to do risks sentencing them to certain death. People who turn away from moral depravity such as adultery do so in an attempt to preserve their own false dignity, but do so at the expense of others. This is NOT the way a healthy society behaves.

The Roman Empire was destroyed from within, as the morals and values of civilization were replaced by hedonism and self-serving behavior. We are on the brink of repeating history...

EXCELLENT post Fred.

Well done Fred