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Originally Posted by Jaded815
For starters, my initial affair was horribly wrong, however my ex husband and I had already decided to divorce as a result of HIS affair several years prior that I never could get over. While it was wrong of me to start another relationship three days before I moved out, the marriage was over. I had already signed my lease to move into my own place. I do not want to give up on another marriage due to infidelity. I want to work (yes, work) to repair it. I have done everything I know how and am continuing to seek resources. That is why I came here!!!

Also just to clear up one of my earlier posts, I said we both quit drinking but I should clarify that we both quit drinking outside of the house. That was the only time drinking was excessive was in social situations...and unfortunately that also meant he was around other women.


Quick tip: when apologizing or admitting guilt using the word 'but' completely negates your apology or admission. However = but

Your first sentence should read:

For starters, my initial affair was horribly wrong. FULL STOP.

That is it, no more. There is no justification or rationalization. It doesn't matter if you'd agreed to separate. It doesn't matter if you'd taken your ring off. It doesn't matter if you were living as roommates before. It doesn't matter if he slept with your mother. It doesn't matter if you'd given up hope on your marriage. IT DOESN'T MATTER. There is no excuse or justification for adultery. You are married until you aren't. Adultery is sex with a person not your spouse. There are no wiggle words there or extenuating circumstances.

Part of recovery is OWNING the behavior that got you to where you are. Justifications, rationalizations, excuses - while they may make you feel better - will just hinder you.

What you have taught your children is that two wrongs make a right. They don't.

Your marriage may be 'valid' in the eyes of God - honestly I can't make that call as it's outta my league- but that doesn't mean it's good or wholesome.

You may think you were 'ok' before this contact with an ex. You weren't you'd just swept it all under the carpet and hoped no one would notice. The dust is all back out now.

Part of what you need to recover is HONESTY for who you are and who you married. You married an adulterer with troubles keepin' it his pants and obviously lacks respect for you - based on his actions that YOU HAVE DESCRIBED. You have to see this for you to recover.

He is a bad person because ACTION defines a person, not intention or wishing. However that doesn't mean you or he are condemned to be bad people forever. That is what repentance and forgiveness are for. He doesn't have to continue being a bad person. He can change if HE wants to, and so can you. But part of changing is recognizing what you've been doing wrong. I'm not seeing a lot of that from either of you.


Me & DH: 28
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Originally Posted by Jaded815
And not that it really matters but I am 32 and he is 31

Yes, it matters. It really does. We've had 19 yo posters on here, trying to 'fix' a marriage that isn't even a year old. Our advice to them differs greatly from the advice we might give to people who have been married for 20 years.

And whether or not an ex is an ex-wife, ex-girlfriend, etc., also matters. You're going to have to keep reading on this site. There is much you will learn that may help you.


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

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Out of curiosity Mrs. W, do you consider your marriage an "affairage"? Because my husband had an affair does not invalidate the marriage anymore than it does yours. We are working past an affair, but it is still a marriage.

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I admit I was wrong. Period. That was my point in telling you all how the relationship started. I was an adulterer no matter what my ex did first. I have an continue to own my responsibility in that awful choice I made.

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Jaded,

My marriage is my first and only marriage...I am a FWW - I remained in my marriage, have repented and been forgiven by my husband and God.

I did not leave my husband and marry OM...How on earth could my marriage be an "affairage"? That makes no sense...crazy

Mrs. W


FWW ~ 47 ~ Me
FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

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Affairage - n. a marriage that begins out of an affair.

NOT a marriage that has been through an affair. Affairages have their own unique and special set of problems that do not plague typical marriages. Affairages have abysmally low success rates, because they are born out of disrespect, secrecy, selfishness and a disregard for the very institution they think to protect them.\

And I don't think anyone is saying your marriage is invalid. I'm pretty sure all marriage licenses have the same validity. You're not looking for us to 'validate' your marriage. You're looking for advice to repair your marriage. Different thing. While your marriage may be 'valid' it may not be worth saving. Big Difference.

Last edited by Vibrissa; 04/19/10 03:00 PM.

Me & DH: 28
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Dr. Harley on affair marriages...

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
oneoftwo:

I've read through your original question and the responses you've received, and almost to a responder, they are warning you about what happens to relationship that originated as an affair. I have counseled hundreds of these couples and am presently counseling couples that married after an affair, and I can tell you from first-hand experience, and their own unsolicited comments, that if they had put the same effort into their marriages, they would be happily married to their original spouses today.

While it's true that there are happy marriages that start as affairs, they are in the minority. Only about 5% of all affairs end in marriage, and only about 1/3 of those marriages survive the first five years. You probably have one chance in 100 of turning this marriage into a successful relationship, and you're off to a terrible start in spite of your love and commitment.

I have a theory about why marriage after an affair is so unsuccessful, but the fact that they're unsuccessful is well documented. My main contention is that for whatever reasons, those who have affairs tend not to follow one of my cardinal principles for marriage: The Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). They tend to do what they please without considering each other's feelings. While that may not apply to both members of the relationship, it almost always applies to at least one of them. Your friend's affair with another man in the beginning your your relationship is evidence that she's not thinking about your interests.

I try very hard to keep these marriages together, in spite of the fact that there is such a low probability of success. If I thought I would fail, I wouldn't be wasting my time. And yet, I have had very little success. I keep thinking that I will eventually find a way to succeed.

There are so many obsticles to overcome. In addition to failure to follow the POJA, there is also a marked failure to follow the Policy of Radical Honesty. They tend to be incredibly dishonest, in spite of the fact that they start out thinking they can look right into each other's very souls.

But there is one other issue that is terribly relevant to your situation: Blended families. I read a research report recently that claimed that only 15% of all marriages with children from another relationship survive for 25 years (on average about 50% of all marriages survive for 25 years). Again, from my perspective, the culprit is failure to follow the POJA. Instead of making joint decisions regarding the children, unilateral decisions are made. This ultimately leads to fights and constant turmoil. After the children are grown, however, the conflict does not end. In many cases, advantages continue to be given to children by the natural parent at the expense of the step-parent.

I'm sure that your counselor has been encouraging your wife to negotiate with you so that you can reach a joint agreements regarding her children, but to no avail. And I've experienced the same thing. In spite of a blended family couple's willingness to follow the POJA when I talk to them, when it comes to a decision that will affect the welfare of their children, the commitment is broken.

The advice you have been receiving on the Forum focuses attention on your affair. I've written quite a bit on that topic, and many of the responders have read it. In general, I warn people to avoid an affair because if the very same problems you are facing. And if a vast amount of research and my own professional experience can be trusted, it happens to 99% of those who try to make an affair last.

While it's very unlikely that you will follow my advice because you're in love with "Jane," leaving this relationship, and restoring your relationship with your first wife is the wisest choice. But if you want to know how you can be the 1% that thrives in spite of the obsticles you face, my advice is that you both learn to follow the POJA with every decision you make, including those with the children. If those decisions are made with mutual care, you may be able to figure out how to make the rest of your relationship work.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

***LINK***

Mrs. W


FWW ~ 47 ~ Me
FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

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Quote
I spoke at length to my pastor about all this because I wanted to ensure my marriage was "valid" in the eyes of God.


skeptical Having been a pastor's kid all my life AND now the wife of a minister, I personally do not understand how a pastor would see it that way. With that said, I also know there are churches that believe homosexuality is okay.

I think there's gonna be a lot of surprised people at judgment day.


Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
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“In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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Hi Jaded, welcome to MB. Sorry you have to be here.

Jaded, please calm down and just answer the questions, preferably without adding a bunch of justifications and stuff so the vets can get all the pertinent points.

Lots of anger and aggravation just muddy's the water. Currently your coming across as just responding to the statements that are riling you up.

If you can give all the important info now, without waiting for it to be teased, or dragged out of you, then people can get on with the task of helping you.


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Originally Posted by Jaded815
I admit I was wrong. Period. That was my point in telling you all how the relationship started. I was an adulterer no matter what my ex did first. I have an continue to own my responsibility in that awful choice I made.

Now here is a thought.

Are you trying to hang on to this one to atone for what you did to get in the marriage to begin with? In other words, two mistakes, one admitted, one not admitted, to make a right?

Just asking. . .

Larry

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Jaded:

Let me add something that might be helpful for you.

A great deal of effort has been spent attempting to get you to see some of the fallacies in your mind. In other words, some of the blind canyons of thought patterns that are not helpful in getting you where you said you want to be.

What I want you to do is back up a minute. Never mind how you got where you are. Never mind that you want to maintain your relationship with your affair partner in a marriage. Never mind anything except one thought.

You have said what you want is to learn how to accept things as they are with your husband. Is that correct?

Let me ask you then, is that really what you want? Honest injin?

Is that all? Given some of the stuff you detailed, is peace at any price really what you want?

Just asking. . .

Larry

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Originally Posted by Jaded815
You are right, I may divorce by biblical standards, but I choose not to. I simply sought input on how to heal.

If you agree that you have this right by Biblical standards, and you are seeking input on how to heal, then why do you get so offended and excited when people tell you that their opinion is that you can get the best healing by exercising this right?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Folks, I have removed the speculative posts from this thread. If anyone has Marriage Building advice to offer Jaded, please do so.

In the future, notify the moderators with any concerns you may have rather than disrupting a thread with speculation.

Thank you.


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Jaded:

I went back and read again your thread from the top. If you will do the same, I think that you will find that a lot of people believed a number of things because of what you said.

You have since either clarified what you said earlier or changed your personal narrative. I don't know which. It doesn't matter.

I go by Dr. Harley's directive, "And we do not judge."

I repeated back what you said and asked you reflect on what your own observations meant. I still will do that. Pointing out what people say is a useful tool to get them to focus on their own narrative. Saying something sometimes allows a person to slide by what they said, "Ok, there, I said it. Now moving on.."

But you can't really move on till you deal with it, you just think you can. Know what I mean?

You have said your husband has been clean for the past six months. Other than being clean, what has he done to set up boundaries for his future acts?

Larry


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Hi Jaded. I am GloveOil's wife. I wanted to respond to your request about how I am dealing with things.

This thread has been all over the place and so I may have lost track of some details. To summarize (just to verify that I've got it right):
- You have a husband who, in the past, has gotten involved in situations where he has made poor choices. Can you refresh the timeline for me? All BS's have a timeline of events burned into their memory by the trauma of an A. For example, GO had an A from late October 2008- early January 2009. He told me on January 7, 2009. He instituted no contact on January 16th, 2009. We have been working toward recovery for 16 months.
- You got involved with your now husband before you were legally divorced. You also experienced an affair from your first husband.
- You want to save your marriage.
- Your husband has instituted extraordinary precautions such as no contact, no time with other women alone, no female friendships, undivided attention with you (minimum 15 hours), openess and honesty and transparency.

I think some of the difficulty you are experiencing here is that the information you have provided contradicts itself. The first post you made made it sound like your husband was unrepentant and still active in his behaviors. And then later you make him sound like he is doing everything right. It is very hard to give advice to a situation when you don't know what's realy going on. Maybe you should start this thread over and give some sequential information to help every one here understand where you are coming from.

Anyway, back to where I am in this situation: I love my DH and who he is trying to be. He has more humility and openess than I have ever seen in him. However, even after 16 months, I still think about the A every day. Some days I can put it out of my mind; other days, I dwell on some things that I wish never entered my head. Lately, my DH and I have been slacking on the undivided attention time and I can feel it. We have to stay vigilant. Our relationship will never be the same, but it can be better than it was, which wasn't too bad to begin with. We have 25 years of history together to build on. I have forgiven him, but will never blindly trust him again.


ME: 45 FBS
FWH: GloveOil 43
D-Day 1/7/09 (A: 10/08-1/09)
DD: 16
DS: 12
Married: 19 years
In love for 24+ years and counting!
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