MrsW.



**edit**

My exchange of emails was a pittance with heartsore compared to the two of you. I was OUTRAGED at the whole event as were the two of you. I saved all of my emails from that time.

Mr.W is an Attorney. He and heartsore worked on the selection of the loser Lawyer heartsore ended up with. I had absolutely nothing to do with that, period.

**edit**

Larry

How is this all relevant?

Unfortunately, I don't trust OM's & OW's.

OM's/OW's lie.

That is, the unrepentent ones.


**edit**

They take liberties with timelines and histories are rewritten or down right lied about.

Just a couple examples:


This post back then doesn't make him out to be an "abuser" and the only things you knock him for are his actions after you stole his children. I've actually read about 15 or so posts of yours about your ex-wife's ex-husband and no where was he described as abusive to her as you made him sound in your posts above and letter to Dr. Harley. It's just convenient to portray him as such NOW (though IRRELEVANT).

Addtionally, you seem to misportray the facts of the case back in 2005 and NOW again this past week or so. Your xw WAS found in contempt in Kentucky and only by recording his phone calls with his children MONTHS after stealing them a 1,000 miles away to Texas and filing an emergency petition IN TEXAS were you able to LUCKILY beat the contempt charge. I say LUCKY because the Supreme Court didn't REALLY rule in your favor, it ruled that the District Court Judge erred when he/she held that he/she didn't have jurisdiction to overrule the Texas Court. As it turned out, the District Court Judge could have saved you all a lot of time and money by enforcing his contempt order and making her (and you) bring back the Betrayed Husband's kids to Kentucky. IMO, after reading the case, your X should have been thrown in jail (you too, as a co-conspirator) but as we know...the courts are BLIND to affairs and adultery.

You also never answered my question: How much time did you give her x-husband to appear and defend himself IN TEXAS when you filed the EMERGENCY motion for custody and supervised visitation IN TEXAS??? One week is the norm, isn't it? Also, did he know you recorded his calls and hired a pyschiatrist (that never spoke to him) to make him appear a monster in Texas??

**edit**


He spent about FIVE YEARS fighting for his kids...some monster!!!!

Then there is this discrepancy:


You see...I KNOW from the Court case that she filed in late March and moved out two days later. The divorce was final in early August. That's a little over 4 months. AM I CORRECT??? Well in the emails above to Dr. Harley and the quotes above you try to make it appear you didn't even really know her much BEFORE she filed for divorce and then just before the divorce was final you started to more or less date her. However, the quote above from just the other day implies MONTHS of much more intimate contact.

Which is it?

THAT is the crux of the problem. I don't trust you and I don't believe you. I LOVE this place. It's way more than just a chat room or bulletin board TO ME. MB saved my marriage from the brink of disaster. It was only by good fortune and the grace of God that the OM in our life wasn't cunning, smart and wealthy enough to steal my wife and fund the removal of my daughter to Georgia or I'd likely be in the EXACT SAME position as your wife's ex-husband. Further, I would be SCARED TO DEATH if say my sister, mother or any female friend came here betrayed and got advice from you. You were 60 years old at the time you "counselled" and then "rescued" this vulnerable 25 year old woman you CLAIM NOW was in a distressed abusive marriage. REAL licensed counselors lose their licenses for such....do you know why??? Because it's predatorish and yet you are posting here and developing posting and email relationships with more women in distressed marital and pending divorce situations. NO SINGLE DIVORCED MAN should really be running around these boards and contacting such distressed women (I don't have specific examples right now but you've invited many poeple to email you many times and it raises red flags NOW, knowing what I know about your history]. It's disconcerting to me, no matter how NICE you appear on the surface.

Finally... you've yet to give any indication whatsoever you intend to or think the ex-husband AND/OR STEP KIDS even deserve an apology. It also appears you believe the end justifies the means. IMO, repentence includes a willingness to sacrifice all ill-gotten gains. Your son does not JUSTIFY the means you utilized to obtain him. He's a blessing, I'm sure, all children are but still a regret to the extent that if you had to do it all over again [as if time machines existed] YOU WOULDN'T.

Where to go from here....how about a contrite empathetic thread wherein you discuss with others not so disgusted or mistrusting of you how you can TRULY become a FORMER OTHER MAN. SEEK HELP. I certainly don't think you have to STOP POSTING but PERHAPS you could consider giving a short signature disclosure of your history such that NEWBIES and other BS's can choose to communicate with you OR NOT...their choice. Others can come up with other ideas.

Mr. Wondering <---the real "straw-man" as you (and a couple others) try to make your typical wayward unrepentent behavior about ME, my wife and our supposed nefarious intentions.

A reminder that it is ok to discuss the issues and ask questions but it is not ok to make personal attacks! Please keep this respectful or the thread will be locked.

I have been waiting for you Mr. Wondering. And now you are here.

You have invested a considerable amount of time painting me out to be a bad person. I appreciate the time you have invested, if not the conclusion you have arrived at.

As I found out when you started in on me before, I could not compete with you counselor. I don't have the years of experience you have making black into white or vice versa.

I have only a couple of things to say:

The first is that I said what I said when I said it, in context with an ongoing discussion. Making it appear that I was talking out of both sides of my mouth is a representation of yours, not a statement that is true, from my perspective.

I too have grown fond of this forum and the board. And I think I have something to offer here. Maybe not. Time will tell.

Here is a problem I have.


I asked earlier if anyone could guess why I was going through this ordeal.

JL answered the question.

He has a habit of doing that for folks. I appreciate his honesty and his perception.

My whole record is here or available for those who want to take a look. In some places, I displayed at attitude that I didn't get it. In other places I showed that I did. Both cases were true representations, much like the newbies show when they come on board or try to read to work up their courage to post.

I subjected myself to this little repeat bit of character assassination because I too have seen too much of it on this forum. And it frankly makes me queasy. And way too often, it is the same players, who so often do such a great job, and yet at times, engage in doing to others what has been done to me.

Go back and read, if you will, my letter to Dr. Harley.

I have at all times told the truth, the whole truth as I understand it to be and nothing but the truth, in context with questions asked, situations analyzed and need for information exposed.

And the hyperbole has risen skyward the more it looks as if I intend to hang around instead of allowing myself to be run off. And anyone who came to my defense was immediately shot down in flames.

Think about it, I'm done, for now. I have a kid to take care of.

Larry

Larry...

Between the two of us...

Who assissinated your character???

Unsure?

Let's ask your ex-wife's ex-husband.

Mr. Wondering <-strawman of the day

Kiwi - PSU was NOT a WS.

He was betrayed. If you've read his story, his then-wife filed a protection order and then moved the OM into PSU's home. He has had to field MANY legal maneuvers by his X which have been encouraged and aided by OM. She moved his children out of state and sued for more support.

PSU is in EXACTLY the same situation as the betrayed X-husband of Larry's affairage-wife.

In PSU's case, I would be sick as h*ll that the man spouting loads of MB wisdom is the same as the poisonous creature now getting more time with his kids than the rightful father is.

That's what the alarm and outrage and Larry is about.

And he still has no empathy for his victim.

It's still all about justifying himself.

Period.

I also found it interesting (and disgusting) that, on another forum, when someone inquired as to Larry's well-being, the responder said that he had spoken to Larry and that Larry's stepchildren were accepting him as their "real father".

I WONDERED why I hadn't seen PSU around.

This will be my only post here. I advise everyone to stop trying to tell Larry what he's done wrong, what he is still doing wrong.

It's only going to give you a headache.

I agree with Kayla--

Are you proud of yourself, Larry? How about you tell them what you've done to their REAL father? I never had the chance at a father that would fight for me for five years.

The children will find out and you will never truly replace their real father. You have some seriously BAD karma coming your way, and if you're religious, well, you already know.

But I have no business saying this, I'm a newbie at this after all.

Kayla Andy I am very well aware that PSU was not a WS. I was just pointing out a double standard that ALWAYS happens around here.

It just really GALLS me that Larry is being picked on in the usual way by the usual people.

I have a great deal of admiration for Dr. H and I am certainly not going to attack either him or Larry or Markos. But, recognizing that Dr. H is free to practice counseling as he sees fit, I must respectfully disagree a bit.

The above view seems to say �once the affairage-couple has �tied-the-knot�, then nothing prior matters�it�s a clean slate and should be looked at just like any other marriage�. I am afraid I cannot concur. Putting aside the personal issues just between the partners that inevitably accompany such relationships (such as the fact that both affair-partners always lie about and to each other), there seem to be a couple of very key differences that separate affairages from �original� marriages:

1. Maybe if you are not �religious� this means little to you, but Judeo-Christian doctrine clearly invalidates these �marriages� from a moral/�Godly� perspective. The Bible is very specific on the conditions under which divorce and re-marriage are allowed. Except for those, the spouse(s)-in-question is/are considered forever morally MARRIED to their original partner(s) no matter what their residency or legal status may be. Such persons are explicitly forbidden to re-marry anyone else. I guess I�m struck by two things here. One is how often affairages, whether or not the parties actively proclaim Judeo-Christian spiritual beliefs, take place in a church and/or are officiated by a clergy-member. That seems oddly incongruous given the fact that the parties are so blatantly violating the explicit teachings they are inherently referencing as the basis for their union. The second is Dr. Harley�s own sincere Christian background. No offense, but I wonder how he reconciles his personal belief system with how he chooses to practice his profession.

2. The outwardly noble goal of a helping 2 people stay together completely ignores the xBS(s) in an affairage. It would matter little I suppose if the xBS(s) had already re-married themselves or had overtly rejected a sincere attempt at reconciliation, but we all know that is rarely the case. Most affairages take place hot on the heels of the divorce(s) and are therefore a further intentional repudiation of the original marriage(s), the original spouse(s), and of possible post-divorce reconciliation. In short, they are another extremely hurtful betrayal to the ex-spouse(s) whom, after all, were FIRST sworn fidelity and devotion by the same person(s) years before. It appears the incentive produced to the wayward(s) is �affair-marry as soon as legally possible to �hit the reset button� and be absolved of responsibility�. We see advice here all the time that �the best option is to return to your original spouse� � how is that furthered by validating the affair-relationship merely because some government has stamped it with a legal designation?

I guess I�m uncomfortable with complete non-judgmentalism for all that went into it before merely because two cheaters later found someone who would sign a license for them. We all know that every WS scapegoats and demonizes their BS to rationalize their affair, so I don�t really buy that excuse�and, if the BS/xBS was indeed so irredeemably horrid, the other spouse always had the far better option of divorcing to be on their own BEFORE accepting the romantic attachments of another.

My thoughts, with all due respect to those who feel otherwise.

****edit****

Kiwi - I'm sorry you feel I'm a "usual suspect". Or some of the others asking Larry to look inward at his behavior toward a betrayed husband who he facilitated destruction upon.

I only remember calling out a few other MBers as frauds before. In fact - can count them on one hand.

Larry isn't a troll. But he's a troubled man with issues that prevent him from giving untainted advice.

Let me put it this way. I grew up in a community where the predominant church works from a lay-ministry. That means that every five to ten years the local leaders get released and a new "volunteer" gets called to be in charge of a small congregation or a group of congregations.

My brother built a machine to handle a certain task on a farm that would have cost about $15000 to buy from the implement store. One of those "lay ministers" who in his regular life was a farmer asked my brother to build one of those machines for $5000 - gave him $1000 down payment. He borrowed the finished machine my brother had already built but then when my brother needed it said that he was keeping it and not paying the balance he'd promised.

Guess how I felt about the leader of that congregation.

Could I have taken advice from that leader?

It's tough to see someone parading around with the doctrine of MB with the proficiency of an ordained minister, yet in his real life know that he has UNAPOLOGETICALLYlaid the seeds of destruction against another man and his children. If he expressed a hint of remorse about THIS action - helping this wayward woman take her children out of state to be raised and nurtured to love another man more than their own father - to recognize this outrageous wrong he participated in, then I could move on and let Larry be the wise man and the MB he loves to be. BUT HE HASN'T!!

Larry - when someone takes your kids and moves them 2000 miles away from you, let's see how sane you stay about the justice of the situation or the costs of visitation or anything else. Let's see you keep your composure. Let's see you pass a psych eval then!

You owe this man a softened heart. And to look at your wife and your duplicity toward him with renewed eyes.

SDCW, I'm going to clarify my former comment, slightly for your benefit.

First of all, know that my mother is off somewhere in an affairage. Your comments reminded me of her. I don't often think of her. She's been off married to that guy for more years than I can remember.

While I disagree with you on some specific technical points of Biblical interpretation, I agree that Judeo-Christian principles do not allow such people to marry. Were I a Christian clergyman, I would not perform their marriage. And there are specific affairage situations where, like many on this forum, I would not help them in any way.

But in the absence of specific details, the only thing I know to do is let God destroy the affairage as He seems often to do. There are legitimate Christian disagreements about whether or not a WS can remarry after being forgiven for their sin of adultery. There are also legitimate Christian disagreements about whether or not divorce is the proper solution to a marriage that began as an affair. And the situation gets even more complicated with questions like whether or not the betrayed spouse has remarried (I wasn't even thinking of that earlier; in cases I know, the betrayed spouse usually has), and whether or not both people in the marriage were in the same state (sometimes a completely innocent person marries someone unscripturally divorced -- is divorce the solution to that?). If God forgives people and gives them the ability to make their marriage work, I feel that I am not one to argue. The Bible is there for them to read and I hope they do not sear their consciences over and if it is a problem I hope they will see it.

Here on this forum, I'm usually not going to be privy to the details. I'm just going to be able to say: "Here's what it takes to make a marriage work, and there's a million odds against you if your marriage started as an affair." Most of them are not going to do what it takes, even when it is handed to them on a silver platter, frankly.

Although I do agree that Larry has helped out many people on these forums, and sometimes even goes onto threads that others have decided to abandon(myself included), I also understand the negative feelings expressed by others.

I believe that DrH says that he does not judge "affairages" and will help them gain a great M the MB way. I do however remember an article(I so wish I remembered where it was) where DrH was counseling a man. He came to DrH about the problems in his current marriage which was an affairage. DrH advised the man to D his current W and go back to his original wife because he would have a better chance having a successful and happier M with her.

I also believe that we can learn some valuable lessons from Larry and his experiences. Afterall, that is what we all have to offer this forum, our own personal experiences as they pertain to MB.

A little part of me was happy to learn that Larry's affairage had an A in it as well. I am ashamed of that part. I don't like that side of me. That is the betrayed wife in me being happy that an AP got their "just desserts." I will put her away again. She does me no good.

Dont be ashamed of enjoying a little justice Scotland. Nuttin wrong wit dat.

****edit****

Sorry, Dufresne.

(Editing) - Please do NOT come back and repost references to edited materials

This is getting disgusting.

Pep asked what witch hunt? THese last few pages sure seems like one to me.

Folks, the is Dr. Harley's site. Anyone is free to have their own opinions BUT to question Harley's morality, to question what he feels is the right thing to do and then nail someone on this site because they fall under that category seems a bit odd.

Folks, everyone has expressed their opinion and offered their moral judgement of Larry. If you would please let's get back to help folks on this site, there is no shortage.

JL

Markos,

Thank you for your reply and I appreciate the intellectual discussion.

I won�t quibble about the finer points of theology or about �out-of-the-ordinary� affairage. Let�s take just the �typical� affairage�the setup that occurs in the majority of circumstances:

The WS & OP (who is often married as well) �meet� platonically at work or wherever.
The WS & OP are FULLY AWARE of the respective marital status of the other.
The affair-partner(s) certainly know that they themselves are married.
They enter into an affair fully knowing in advance that (at least one of them) is married.
WS-fog ensues (we know the drill), the BS(s) are cast aside, and wrenching, unwanted divorce(s) follow.
The WS & OP affair-marry each other�usually pretty much �as soon as the ink is dry�.

I cannot condone the above under any circumstances. I�m sure you cannot as well. The �marriage� is morally and ethically invalid regardless of how long it endures and how determined either of them are to continue it. I would never help anyone trying to �save� such a union and do not consider the dissolution of it to be a loss of anything of value. I know that may seem harsh, but nothing good is being accomplished by prolonging or validating something that never should have been in the first place. I cry no tears for this.

Nor do I, but your words carry more weight than mine, so I'll just agree with you.

(Not meant in a rude tone, I actually mean it. Vets' opinions do carry more weight)

I do so agree!!!

I have never posted before even though I'm a long time lurker. I am so appalled by the nastiness of this thread, that I'm embarassed to admit that I'm still reading!

Where is the empathy and compassion for another fellow man who makes mistakes like the rest of us humans?

What is the point of all this ugliness? Who's trying to prove what? And to what end?

I would like to add that I am a BS trying to recover my marriage.

I do feel for you Larry, and I wish I had never started reading this thread. My bad!!!!