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As I mentioned earlier in this thread:

I believe the "we" in "we don't judge them" refers to Dr. Harley's professional counseling service.

If you go to a professional for care, they will help you without "judgment". If you have an STD or a gunshot wound or a heroin overdose or an affairage and need help for any of those things, a professional is required to objectively help you if you go to them and they are not allowed to "judge" you.

That's why the Harley counseling service pretty much *has* to be open to all. I'm sure that hospital emergency rooms don't like drunk drivers either, but they will try to save their lives the same as anyone else's because they are professionals and are required to do so.

I'm sure the Harleys look at affairages the same way - not something they like or endorse, but something they will encounter from time to time in their professional capacity as counselors/coaches. They can't discriminate on a professional basis without danger of going out of business.

It's different on these boards. The Harleys are in this professionally. We are not.


Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
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Actually, that post where Dr. Harley told the man to go back to his wife was a little different than that.

The man in question was now LIVING with his affair partner and had been for many years. They were NOT married. And lo and behold, she was cheating on HIM. (What a shock, eh?)

After many posts between the man and MB posters, Dr. Harley graciously posted. That is where he said that, frankly, the man would be better off going back to his wife than continuing what he was doing.

I wish I was better technically and could find that post. It is a couple years old I believe. There is more to it and the condensation here does not tell the whole story.

God bless Dr. Harley.


WH2LE

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You may be right but I do think that it was a letter and not necessarily a post but I may be wrong. I am HUMAN and I make mistakes and as such, I am willing to ADMIT them and LEARN from them so I will not REPEAT them in the future. I have read A LOT on this site. I remembered what DrH advised because it was a SHOCK to me. I have tried to figure out where I saw it but I will look again. laugh


BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
Scotty's THING laugh
Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.
? Maya Angelou

PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

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I think it was a letter too...I remember reading it.


BW me-41
WH -39
DS - 9
married 12 Yrs together(?) 18 yrs when A discovered
DDay aug 2007
found MB dec 2007
Moved out april 2008
still seeing OW
Plan B

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I think this is the thread y'all are talking about~~~> On outside looking in - Dr. Harley's Post

Mrs. W


FWW ~ 47 ~ Me
FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

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It may be. I am going to read the thread and see if it sounds familiar. laugh Thanx MrsW. laugh


BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
Scotty's THING laugh
Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.
? Maya Angelou

PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

THANK YOU
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Originally Posted By: Mulan

I'm sure the Harleys look at affairages the same way - not something they like or endorse, but something they will encounter from time to time in their professional capacity as counselors/coaches. They can't discriminate on a professional basis without danger of going out of business.


I believe this as well about the Harleys. I'm sure they view affairage-counseling (when they even know it's an affairage in advance--probably rarely) as something distasteful they have to do as part of their business or professional obligation. Dr. H has posted/written about how he tries in these situations even knowing that it's almost always hopeless--and he's explained why it is that way as well.

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Well, Since I couldn't find anything else, this is most likely it. I could have sworn it was a letter though. Well, I have read A LOT of things on here at differing points in my journey.

I was WRONG. I APOLOGIZE for taking DrH's words and managing to change them to something he did not intend. It was NOT my intention to mislead anyone. I truly believed that I read it the way I remembered. I made a mistake and I will try not to repeat it in the future. laugh


BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
Scotty's THING laugh
Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.
? Maya Angelou

PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

THANK YOU
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Originally Posted By: SDCW_man
I'm sure they view affairage-counseling (when they even know it's an affairage in advance--probably rarely) as something distasteful they have to do as part of their business or professional obligation.


I'm not so sure on this. I think only the good doctor can opine regarding what he finds truly distasteful regarding his profession, but I would bet a diet coke that ALL treatment falls into the same category -- a sincere desire to repair a marriage.

A surgeon may find certain procedures unpalatable but returning the patient to a state of health is the primary goal. Whether the specific ailment is distasteful only detracts from focusing on the recuperation of the patient.

I have thrown my two cents out there on KA's thread ('Just Learning'). No need for me to regurgitate here.....

Thanks,
TB



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Well I dont know, but when Dr. Harley compares the trauma of an affair to the trauma of being raped, and that does not even include what it does to children, and the fact that an affairage has about a 1% chance of even surviving....sounds to me like he thinks of them as pretty distasteful to say the least, no?


BW me-41
WH -39
DS - 9
married 12 Yrs together(?) 18 yrs when A discovered
DDay aug 2007
found MB dec 2007
Moved out april 2008
still seeing OW
Plan B

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In fact, (see his Infidelity Video) Dr. H states that marital infidelity is MORE emotionaly traumatizing than even rape or physical assault. The only life event that is demonstrably more so is the death of a child. Note, this is not just Dr. H's personal opinion--it has been verified in numerous psychological studies on PTSD.

It has also been demonstrated that affairages end in divorce over 95% of the time over a lifetime and that many do so within the first 5 years (~75%). The "happily-ever-after" fantasy at the outset of affairages very rarely pans out in reality over the long-term for many obvious reasons.

That can't be very inspiring to a man as devoted to marriage as Dr. H is. I can't speak for him...just surmising.

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Originally Posted By: _Larry_
Not2

Quote:
it started out on a thread on Historical Hoensty, where Larry had trouble understanding this concept, and even said that he could "poke holes" in Dr. H's theory of that........some of couldn't understand WHY he couldn't understand this.........


Thank you. Please provide the exact quote where I disagreed with Dr. Harley.


No problem, HOWEVER, for the RECORD, I never said, nor implied that you DISAGREED with Dr. Harley, I said you have trouble understanding this concept...I do NOT appreciate your mangling of my words....

Originally Posted By: Larry
I am not a big fan of Dr. Harley's historical honesty, mainly because I don't understand it. If, when I married my now X wife, I had paused to list all of the things I had screwed up in my life, I would still be talking 10 years later. On the other hand, if I listed all of the things I had done good, I honestly believe it would have taken me a lot longer.

Historical honesty is the one area where I have a problem with MB concepts. There are no other areas where I can find a hole to crawl into. I got to thinking, am I supposed to talk about spin the bottle at 12 or the "You show me your's" with the next door neighbor at six? How about getting into fights in Jr. High? How much detail? I really don't know.

I have never seen a thread on historical honesty.

Larry


This is the quote that started the whole Radical/Historical Honesty thread......

Quote:
If what I said would cause anyone to believe that dumb me would disagree with Dr. Harley, then I would be pleased with the opportunity to fall on that sword.


Well, I have NO problem stating *I* was the anyone. AGAIN, I never said you disagreed, only you misunderstood, so I suppose it will be THAT technical error which will keep you from falling on the sword......

Quote:
I finally got Historical Honesty. The difficulty I had, I honestly had is because my brain is cluttered up with all this cultural stuff I study.


You are painting a different picture than what you said that day. You barely touched on the whole cultural stuff, and instead went on a crazy rampage about it being a gender difference issue.....to which, is STILL an insult the many HONEST, GOOD men who post on these boards. In fact, Mark refuted your assessment........

Quote:
I asked for help, which finally degenerated to someone calling me dishonest.


Actually, you were called out on being foggy first......you had a couple of replies which sounded a whole lot like the fogbabble we all have gotten from WS.....Something, many around here are pretty good a picking up......

not2fun


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Look, I'm not going to sit here and say that Dr. H does cartwheels and high-fives whenever he's asked to assist with an affairage. Plus, this particular scenario is kind of meandering into the 'The Land of The Ever-Present Tangents'. I see your points, though, SD and SH. I really do.

I think we are all pretty clear that affairages have the potential to do great damage to others. I don't think anyone would argue with that premise. And of course, the degree of harm can vary from one relationship to another.

Thanks,
TB



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Thank you Mrs. W. I appreciate the effort to find the thread.


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Larry,

I'm bringing a piece of our long off forum discussion over here. I think since you said my post that labeled you an OM started the firestorm that this and my response were relevent here, as well as in our private discussion. So here goes;

----------------
Larry to tst;

tst, Let me address your slap down. You did it with labels instead of concepts. Concepts are fine, labels are not fine. The reason is that labels paint a false picture. The false picture is because you have no idea what the label means to the person you are attempting to influence.

-----------------
tst to Larry;

Larry,

Labels DO matter to me as much as the concepts. The labels only hurt when they still stick.

None of the labels I've repented and made ammends for stick to me any more.

Once I've repented and made ammends, the wreckage of my past is clean and I receive forgiveness.

God tells me that before I make an offering to Him (like helping others), I need to leave the offering, go make ammends and then come back to Him with my offerings. My offerings will not be received, nor should they, until I complete this arduous journey.

See Larry, in my life I've been an alcoholic, drug addict, thief, adulterer, OM, WH, etc. but these all fall to the ground when true repentance, through the ammends process, has occured with everyone I've harmed. In return, the lessons and my message become powerful as a result of those labels that once stuck to me, as long as I remember to give God the Glory.

Giving Him the Glory is the offering!

tst





Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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When we meet someone, whether in real life or online, and that person seems like a nice person who seems willing to share knowledge and help with us, it is natural to want to get to know this person better and to seek out the help he kindly offers.

Sometimes, after we get to know this person, he will occasionally say things that just don't "sit right" with us...they don't reflect the person that we originally thought he was. As time goes on, we learn more about the person, and it turns out that his character does not seem to be as sterling as we originally thought. His previous actions may seem to be deliberately cruel and selfish, and he shows no sign of real remorse for those action and even defends them.

That person may still be giving out advice that could be helpful, but I now have a problem with accepting that advice. I can no longer consider this person to be trustworthy, because there is the possibility that his advice may be tainted with his own perception of how I might achieve my goals. I would never want to feel that it is fine and dandy to hurt someone else and take what is theirs.

Everyone does things that may not be what someone of good character would do, but a person of good character will face up to his wrongdoings, make amends to those he has wronged, and make himself accountable to never do anything to harm another person again.

A person who plots and schemes to harm another person, and who shows no remorse for doing so, is not a person of good character, IMHO, and is not someone I would choose as an advisor.


"Your actions are so loud that I can't hear a word you're saying!"

BW M 44 yrs to still-foggy but now-faithful WH. What/how I post=my biz. Report any perceived violations to the Mods.
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Larry,

I had a POSOM that came into my marriage because he needed a place to live and put his horses. He was able to get the first part. However, when I put my foot down on the second part of the equation, that's when PSUBIKER became the enemy.

POSOM really did a number on me AND my exWW which will affect our children for the rest of their lives. Once he moved onto our property, he would do the chores that I would do while I was at work. When I got home from work, I would just surf the internet. POSOM told exWW that I was surfing for porn while the kids were in the room with me. She believed him - he was such a nice guy and all to help her through some problems. POSOM also listened in on individual phone marriage counseling sessions.

When exWW put him on the stand in a protection order hearing which WOULD have taken the kids away from me for a year if it went through, he testified to the following:

- He overheard the couselor telling exWW that I was taking the divorce hard
- I showed inappropriate affection towards the kids.
- told the court that I called my exWW another word for "Lady of the Night" that starts with a "W" (I did call her that but it was in response to EXWW saying SF was much better with POSOM because he was more endowed)
- kids running around and not listening after visits with me as a sign I was allienating them against him and their mother.

In my case, my lawyer shedded POSOM's credibility when it came out that he was living there while I paid all of the expenses even though I had expressed my concerns in writting. Basically, he had the most to gain by me being off the property because his horses would have been repossessed by his previous landlord if he didn't get them out when he did. I suspect in your case, you had more credibility with the courts based on your background and used that to your advantage to paint the XH in a much worse light than he actually was.

POSOM used bits of pieces of a situation, manipulated the context of them, and used it to turn exWW against me and her family. WHen someone is going through a lot of emotional turmoil, it is real easy to believe and latch on to the person who is understanding and lends the sympathetic ear.

What people get angry about is the fact that you paint the XH has a lunatic when it was you that had the XW move from KY to TX two weeks AFTER a custody order was consented to. You threw a live hand grenade into their coparenting relationship and then had the audacity to blame the XH for the collateral damage!


Me BH 35 WW 36
Married 1998
DS 2002
DD 2005
D Day 1 7/28/08
D Day 2 8/19/08

Divorce Final 3/19/2009
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{{{{{{{{PSUBIKER}}}}}}}}}





Recovery began 10/07;

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Originally Posted By: tst
{{{{{{{{PSUBIKER}}}}}}}}}


Hugs from me too, PSU....Jeez, sorry you are goin thru all this crap.


BW me-41
WH -39
DS - 9
married 12 Yrs together(?) 18 yrs when A discovered
DDay aug 2007
found MB dec 2007
Moved out april 2008
still seeing OW
Plan B

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Originally Posted By: stillhere8126
Originally Posted By: tst
{{{{{{{{PSUBIKER}}}}}}}}}


Hugs from me too, PSU....Jeez, sorry you are goin thru all this crap.


It's all pretty much in the review mirror - things have been pretty quiet between exWW and I for the last couple of months. But, so much mistrust and resentment has built up between exWW and I over everything that my kids will always be affected by the manner in which my marriage disintegrated.

The more important part of Marriage Builders is it is a learning site as well. I have learned a ton on relationships that will help me in the future. I think the recent backstory about Larry adds to that learning. It is a good lesson learned on how quickly divorce and custody can go nuclear and at the end of the day, both groups ask what happened?


Me BH 35 WW 36
Married 1998
DS 2002
DD 2005
D Day 1 7/28/08
D Day 2 8/19/08

Divorce Final 3/19/2009
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