DH and I are almost three years into R and I am finding that although he is loving and thoughtful and wonderful at making deposits in my LB, one good LB can just empty it.

His big problem has always been O&H. It runs in his family. He is very nonconfrontational and he has a very difficult time in sharing his feelings, particularly negative ones. Thus he has a tendency to keep things from me which if done often enough leads to outright lies. I have never liked this but it never affected me like this before the A.

Needless to say my anntenae are always up and when I find that he has done it agian, I am taken right back to the lies of the A and bang my feelings of romantic love just disappear and I become fearful and anxious again.

We go through this several times a year. He is not an MB convert and as hard as I try, I cannot get him to read Dr Harley's Love Busters. I have been considering counseling with the Harleys to see if Steve or Jennifer could help him to see the damage that dishonesty and independent behavior does to a M but how do you POJA that with an H that is not onboard.

God's Blessings,

Say

Just letting you know someone is reading and understands. I have no advice though. After my WH's affair I was extremely sensitive to lies and other flaws. In fact, I dumped a few friends, just couldn't tolerate it. So I know exactly how you feel.

Thanks, Believer. Really down day.

God's Blessings,

Say

I think it must go with the territory. I had such a drop about three weeks ago. I told H that I had not felt so alone and empty since the time right after d-day. When I finally got him to discuss the issue, we got back on track pretty quickly.

GY

Say, sorry you're having a rough day.

I think counseling with the Harley's would be a great idea. If you H flat-out refuses, at least you could do it for yourself and maybe get some ideas on how to better deal with this.

I can understand how the 'omissions' and failure to be open and honest can completely undermine all the positive building that had occurred prior, does your H have any idea how important that is?

I think you should go to a MB weekend if you can. You will get a more comprehensive overhaul. For example, I had been here for 5 years and was STILL engaging in IB and he was engaging in AO's and we never did POJA right.

Well, at the MB weekend, they identified this problem the first day via personality tests. One of our first lessons was my IB and learning the POJA. It made an amazing difference and propelled us into an entirely new level.

We about killed each other learning the POJA [fights in the grocery store] but once we got that down, it eased the tension in our marriage. They are good at weeding out the biggest problems and quickly tearing them down. For example, your coach will likely put you through the openeness and honesty course right away.

That is what I would do if I were you. I would tell him the truth, that you are not in love with him and WANT to be. See if he will go to a MB weekend.

If you can get him to a MB weekend, Dr Harley could work him over on stuff like this.

I think this is probably pretty normal. I've noticed this, too. Even though AJ does a very good job most of the time, any LB's, even small ones, make a much bigger withdrawal than pre-A, and my bank is slower to fill up after a w/d, too.

Even if it's nothing that remotely brings up feelings or triggers anything to do with the A (hardly anything ever does), I'm still more responsive to the bad than before, and less responsive to the good.

I think for me it has a lot to do with being too connected to him before, and finding out to my shock that I would be just fine without him.

For you, being triggered by an alien-like behavior of less than full honesty, this question goes beyond an interesting observation to a serious hemorrhage of valuable love deposits that needs to be stopped asap.

You've hit the nail on the head Neak. I am less needy than I have ever been in our M yet it takes more to keep my LB at a healthy level. I feel like the dishonesty and IB has ripped a hole in my LB and it just continuously leaks. Then when we have a truth witholding or dishonesty incident it is just abruptly empty. I have learned to handle it without any LBs and he is wonderful at knowing my ENs and filling them. We just can't get by this. He will not acknowledge that it is a big deal and I can't let it slide anymore.

Mel, if I could get him to do a couple of coaching sessions it would be a miracle. I didn't find MB til a few weeks after D-day and I didn't know to set the bar high. I accepted way to many things on his terms and he will not renegotiate.

God's Blessings,

Say

You can always have a coaching session by yourself, to get expert input how you can resolve this.

Habitual dishonesty would be a dealbreaker for me. I'm not surprised you're having a really hard time with it - it means you're healthy.

Hi Saynomore,

I remember feeling exactly how you describe too.
One LB could erase all of the deposits, from the day or week.
Dishonesty and IB were the worst, kind of like lightening striking a tree.

Since he's not open to an MB weekend, I think counseling with the Harley's yourself, is a good idea.
It could give you a plan with how to deal with his LB's.

You mentioned that you don't feel that you can renegotiate the M terms.
Recovery and rebuilding the M is an ongoing process of reassessing progress,
and negotiating ways to make it stronger.
I guess what I'm saying is that, I think you can renegotiate the terms of your M.

In the case of dishonesty, the LB that enabled an A in the first place, is one that
needs to be discussed as a deal breaker.
How can you ever feel safe if that continues?
How can you ever get to that feeling of romantic love?

Say, it is up to you to set the bar in your marriage. If your standards are too low, he will just live down to your expectations. It is up to you to set the conditions you need for recovery. If you are unhappy, the solution is to not endure, but to change that.

Saynomore,

I know exactly how you feel. I think the closer the LB's come to A behavior the bigger the withdrawal. Dishonesty, IB, anger, disrespectful judgments and selfish demands were constant during the A, so even if it doesn't trigger thoughts of the A directly, it triggers the pain and insecurity. Perhaps it's the fight or flight instinct kicking in.

This weekend was a perfect example. H engaged in what he would consider minor LB's, but to me, the love bank was drained almost to the point of depletion. I would classify the LB's as IB, selfish demands, disrespectful judgments and a touch of anger.

H and I are currently in counseling with Steve. He's really terrific. If your H won't agree to the weekend, I'd strongly encourage you to counsel solo with Steve to get started. From what I've heard, he's great at convincing reluctant H's to get on board.

We're just at the point where we've filled out our EN and LB questionnaires and we're going to share them this week and then have another session with Steve. During that conversation, I'll ask Steve about the issue you raise and see what he has to say.

Our counseling has already paid off in this regard. After the LB's I went into withdrawal for a few hours. That normally would have angered H. Instead, when I was ready to talk, I gave him the high sign (our DD14 was right there), we left the house and talked it over. Per Steve's prior direction I said that we have a plan to recover and improve our M and his behavior over the last day wasn't part of the plan. Instead of H getting angry, which would have been his normal response, he understood, apologized, and cleaned up his act. That's big for us!

Bea

Thanks, Bea and Vitoria. It helps to know that I am not alone in these feelings. We talked for quite some time last night with no LBs. DH has never been guilty of any LBs except the dishonesty and occasional IB. He is loving and patient and even romantic so when these issues come up occasionally, it really hurts and I like you Bea have a tendency to shut down. This used to upset him but we have worked through this and yesterday he gave me space until I could sort things out.

We talked about why O&H were so much more important since the A and the fact that I could not feel safe knowing that he was comfortable hiding things from me or even outright lying if he thought that what he had done would upset me. To say that his FOO is guarded would be a laughable understatement. The IB was also so prevalent that one member of his family seldom had any idea what another member living in the same house was doing. He has worked hard to open up with me in the last 18 years and I know it is very difficult for him.

Things that I let slide before the A are huge triggers to me now, such as him buying tickets to a very expensive concert in NYC and calling it a "surprise."

He is usually extremely defensive when it is brought up but last night listened intently without interupting. He had little input even in long silent lapses in the converstaion and terminated the conversation by saying that he needed sleep and he needed to think. This morning I got a "Morning Sweet Pea" text which is a very good sign since in the past he has sometimes closed himself off to me for days after a "dishonesty discussion."

I plan on telling him that I am going to set up an appt with the Harleys for myself and that they may want to talk to him. He may see this as a POJA situation so I will have to try to explain to him why it is not.

Mel, M improvement is an ongoing discussion in our house. I only meant that immediately after the A I had more leverage. He has complied with everything that I asked him to do in order for me to be willing to attempt R of our M including MC. He told me last night that he read Love Busters and does not quite "buy it all" like I do. That is a hard response to deal with. I asked him if he had any other ideas or another counselor in mind and he told me that he will just have to start telling me everything.

I love this imperfect man and am grateful for his ongoing attempts to alter his demeaner and personality after years of using closing himself off from people as his way of dealing with conflict. I just do not feel "in love" with him when he slips and I have told him that.

God's Blessings, Say

say, those are about the worst lovebusters of all. I know that my own IB kept our marriage limping along for years. And once we went to the MB weekend, they weeded that out the first day. Resolving my IB made an enormous difference in the marriage.

One thing Steve told me in counseling that really resonated with me was that I should stop trying to educate H in the MB concepts. Steve takes on that role instead. H is much more receptive to the concepts when they come from Steve.

At the beginning of our latest blowup (which involved me learning of more instances of infidelity that occurred prior to our original d-day), H read the O&H chapter and freaked out. He argued with the concept as it related to pre-marriage historical honesty. As it turned out, there was still plenty of stuff that happened during our M that I needed to know and it took a polygraph and counseling with Steve to bring out.

I have no doubt that it will be a struggle for H to meet my need for O&H, but he now knows how important it is to me and he also knows how good it feels for me to know all the bad stuff in his life and to love him anyway.

I know that, Mel but my DH needs to see that. They have always been a way of life for him and he claims to have never been offended by them himself because he comes from a "very private " family.I am praying that I can get him to be included in one session and that will help him to see the damage that is done by them.

God's Blessings,

Say

I decided not to POJA that, myself. I just went. My wife was mad, but I was doing what I felt I had to do to save our marriage, and it's not like she was following the POJA at that point in time, anyway.

That is a possibility, Marcos and I am considering it. Part of our dishonesty issues though have to do with POJAing financial expenditures of over $25. I would prefer to get at least his agreement on this if not enthusiatic.

We have made so much progress and our after A M is so much more thoughtful and loving than before that I want to do this right.

God's Blesings,

Say