H Baby is on the way - need to make more money - can't be around the wife so much.

W Baby is on the way - need support - lonely b/c hubby isn't around.

Add second kid, a SAHM, and a new, more expensive house and here is where my M started to decline. Keep this up for 15 years and how does one get back on track when the W and now me thinks nothing will improve.

I think the H working too much is a common problem in which he thinks he is doing the right thing (at the time) but it takes a toll.

Lou

One thing that I kept thinking as I read is how little society prepares us for marriage on a Macro level.

This is so very true. We hear it often - you need special training before so many things to earn the right to practice whatever it is, but there is very little that is imposed on a marrying couple in order to marry. Now...dh and I had to go to a day-long precana class in order to get married in his church, but that was it. Maybe other faiths strongly recommend it, but there really isn't much that is required. Why impose a mandatory blood test on a couple and not mandatory training/counseling? This has always been a puzzle to me.

On page 19, he says: "None of us can force ourselves to do something that's unpleasant indefinitely." So, with the housework, Ned, I can relate. Day in and day out I am here, staring at the same walls, doing the same chores over and over. I have come to the conclusion that I need to go back to work - not just for the money, but for my self esteem, and my mental health. I'm not downplaying the benefits to my family, but what about me?

So, even though we feel resolved to get along for the sake of peace, the resolution itself won't create peace, and we can't force ourselves to play a role like that indefinitely.

One of the best lessons I learned here is that 'love' is an action word.

I grew up not particularly being taught that love was an emotion, but in retrospect realize it was taught to me hands-on by witnessing how my parents love each other, as in an action word.

They have their times when they pi$$ each other off, but I could go down a list the length of my arm that would tell you what they do right. I had good mentors. Then I married a man entirely different than my father, and everything I'd been shown growing up seemed to be a textbook for a class I dropped out of.

So...back to the book...

He writes regarding the Love Bank: The way our emotions keep track of the way people treat us.

...if someone has a large negative balance, our emotions encourage us to avoid that person by making him or her feel repulsive to us. We have very little intellectual control over these feelings, and they are based almost entirely on Love Bank balances.

Well...I gotta tell ya that this statement above made me feel better. I felt somewhat like a weight had been lifted from my shoulders, and I think it is because my dh sometimes imposes upon me that my feelings are my own fault. So...the feelings we get from a low love bank balance are really not something we have a lot of control over. Does that sound right?

That got me thinking about plugging up those holes in the love bank/bucket. Whose job is that? Is it my job to plug up any of my own holes? And how would I accomplish that? Aren't the holes in my bucket HIS responsiblity?

...Of all the people you know, you are more likely to hate your spouse than anyone else. And your spouse if more likely to hate you than anyone else.

How sad is this? How awful?

Before you can ever hope to rebuild your love bank balances, you must first learn to stop making Love Bank withdrawals.

In my case,I need to examine also why I am even making the withdrawals, not just to acknowledge that I need to stop them.

One of the most important things dh and I got right from the start was to always spend a LOT of time together and make each other our most important priority. I'm glad of that. Although we have some love busters going on that I'm recognising bit by bit and we absolutely don't do perfectly at meeting all needs we always spent so much time together, and did practically everything together that I now realise we were making love bank deposits all the time and managing to balance out the withdrawals we were making in other ways. Hurray for UA time.

The sentence that stuck out for me most from the first section was the one you quoted about about being more likely to hate your spouse than anyone else because you can't escape them when they are love busting you. I talked to my H about this and how it made so much sense and how important it was to make sure we don't let love busters continue. I am aware that whenever we are too busy to spend UA time together (like if we're visiting family for a few days and juggling watching children with trying to see all our friends and family in a few short days back in the UK) both our love bank balances plummet incredibly quickly which I only just thought to myself must mean that we're love busting each other more than we think as otherwise our balances would stay static?

When Karen no longer trusted that Jim would protect her, she enacted her own protections - for her own safety. Those protections came at the expense of her marriage but by that time, she didn't care.

We all will protect ourselves and if we feel our spouse won't, the protections we erect will come at the expense of intimacy. Being intimate makes us vulnerable to being hurt. If we disconnect, and depend on our spouse for as little as possible, we can keep ourselves from getting hurt, but we can also keep ourselves from an intimate, passionate relationship with our spouse.

Karen became independent, relying on Jim for as little as possible. She doesn't believe he CAN or WILL make her safe and so she will persist living behind her protective walls.

The Taker erects walls because


In Ch. 2 Harley describes HOW to get back to intimacy. The walls for protection are erected by our Takers. Takers are what destroy a marriage. In order to have intimacy the Taker's instinct to override the Giver has to be ignored.


Reigning in your Taker and eliminating the Love Busters in your Taker's tool box is the ONLY way to protect your spouse. When your spouse finally believes that YOU will protect them, they will remove their walls to protect themselves. However I can see how this would take A LOT of time and consistent effort.

Lou- it took you 15 years of not protecting each other in marriage to get where you are. It will take time to pull each other back up. While Harley does say that it is easier if both spouses are on board, he also says that it is possible for one person to pull them back up. It's possible, just harder.

You eliminate Love Busters and SHOW your wife that YOU will protect HER so she doesn't have to. If you haven't, Lou, find and read Markos and Prisca's threads. Markos has done an excellent job of drawing Prisca out of withdrawal and because she saw the changes in his behavior she is NOW on board with MB (she wasn't when he started). It took Markos CHANGING FIRST to start the process. M & P are also a good example of the fact that it takes TIME and CONSISTENT EFFORT reigning in your taker to get from Withdrawal to Intimacy.

To answer your question,



You don't convince her with WORDS that things will improve. You SHOW HER with ACTION that things WILL improve.

Well my H's answer to question#1 was his advice is to tell Jim/Karen not to have children....but since the question said they were already married in the 1st yr of marriage then it might be to late for that advice...it should really be given before they marry....he didn't say if he meant to never have children or just delay it for a period of time....and since the story doesn't say if they had kids in the 1st yr or 5yrs later I was very surprised at his advice...this was his only piece of advice to give....he went 1st...as we took turns.

ME: I said they should keep acting like they were dating...schedule family time and personal time alone together weekly. make sure to meet each others most important needs.

H: defended the man in the story saying things just change like that when you have kids and he has to work like that.

ME: I said maybe they could have talked about it....made a budget....plan....and maybe Karen could have worked a few more hours at her job instead of Jim having to work such long hours away from his wife/family.

H: NO....things change when you have kids and you need to do this.

Talking with DH, I think men (in particular) feel a very strong obligation to 'provide' especially when a kid comes along. Women (not all but many) feel a strong need to 'nurture' when a kid comes along.

The focus goes to - make money to support the family for men and take care of the children for women.

The begin to completely ignore their spouse, and then wonder why their marriage is in shambles.

I agree with your DH, gemstone, to a certain extent. Things DO change when children come along. However, we can control some of those changes.

DD is 5 months old right now. DH is a full time student and works part time. His boss offered to find a way to get him to go to full time over the summer while he's out of school. DH and I discussed it TOGETHER. He has a pretty strong drive to financially provide for our family and feels pretty horrible that his job brings in so little to the family budget. While the extra money would be nice, it is coming at the expense of time with his daughter (he will be watching her when not at work). We decided that time with the family is more important than money.

The nice thing is, if it were just me at home he'd do the same thing. Our time together and our time with DD absolutely must be prioritized, even over money. After a certain threshold (roof over head, clothes on backs, food in bellies) any extra money is coming at the expense of the most important relationships in our lives.

After kids come you don't NEED to become a work-a-holic. If you want a happy marriage, you NEED to prioritize it. A wife shouldn't have to 'sacrifice' her happiness in marriage to satisfy her husbands 'NEED' to provide. A H's NEED to provide can become a LB (DJ) as it is dictating to the wife and family what their most important needs are and how they will be met: Financial Support.

wow you hit the nail on the head here IMO....my spouse is a work-a-holic...he's working 7days a week long hours....and the job goes on traveling but right now is local until it moves again....we have almost no time together and that's been the set up of our marriage....and he has made this decision all on his own....FS is the most important need and all else are to be ignored and have been and will continue to be....he has told me that he simply can't do anything about this...his job requires it and he has to be there and do it....no if's ands or butts are excepted....he stood me up again this weekend....said he would only work Sun until noon...but he never called or came home until 5pm....and was dead tired....he also sprong more problems on me that he got going with our mortage payment....long story but the bank has notified us that it's going up about $1000 a month....so his urge to get FS is only going to go into exteme hyper drive or he said he will let them forclose on us...he's not discussing it with me just telling me what he has concluded or ranting I am not sure....I cried all morning this a.m.....couldn't sleep....not over the house mind you....we can live thru that....death is something I view much worse in life...but that I see this will give him even more excuses to reason away any logic that says marriage/family comes 1st.

I was going to add this to the discussion: Many men tend to focus on "providing" and do not see the real and true cost of earning that extra money.

Reality: We earn money to finance a happy and satisfying lifestyle. When our method of earning money threatens a happy / satisfying lifestyle we need to adjust that method if possible and change that method if necessary.

Spending time together is essential for a happy marriage. Anything which threatens that needs to be addressed.

Of course, for some men - earning the money is a virtue unto itself. Then you have a real issue because such men find it difficult to see the "reality" stated above.

Just a reminder.

This week we are reading Chapters 3 and 4 and throughout the week will also continue discussing the Intro and chapters 1 and 2.

My on line time tapers off in the afternoon due to chores, so keep it going. There are several readers we have not heard from. I hope that they will drop in during the week at some point.

Many men tend to focus on "providing" and do not see the real and true cost of earning that extra money.

Throw in some women talk as if they need more things or mention the neighbors have abc and top that of with "why don't we have abc to the H.

When the kids were in high school, my W went to work but that was "her money" and she really went independent, bought what ever she wanted, was a shopping addict for several years, moved to the spare bedroom, became an expert in co-dependent no more.

OK, I can relate to what I should have done and what I did wrong. I have made a loot of changes but so far the rewards are slim. She is happier but I am not so sure I can keep trying after 6 years. I don�t our life together will ever be good enough for my W to have the M I wish we had. I often think most of our problems would have not started if I had an income 2X or 4X of what I had. Being off work due to working too hard and too many hours, which lead to a back injury and surgery was the tipping point in a once good relationship.

I don�t have my LB book but I know enough in general from reading MB and the other 20+ relationship books, something has to change or this feeling of disconnectedness will have more negative consequences.

W has 4 dogs, 4 cats, and me, the H. So why do I often feel less important than the dogs, but slightly more important than some of the cats? I will say my W is picky/negative and it feels she is a �renter� while I try to be an �owner.�

Lou

bumping

Ok, I have never participated in a book club before, so be patient with me. I'll chime in to some others posts later, but I wanted to put my own thoughts first. The biggest thing for me was reading chapter 2. Mostly because it really, really hit home. And not in a good way, obviously.

Prior to starting to read, I looked at the table of contents. And I circled three LB's that I felt I did all the time. Guess which 3 it was?!? I seriously cried because I realized what I had done. I made selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. Especially AO's. My depression and anxiety were in overdrive to the part where I totally did all 3 of these constantly.

I thank Dr. H for putting in these 2 quotes: "The perpetrator of abuse does not recognize it for what it is." and "If spouses do not know when they are being abusive and why they are doing it, it's impossible to stop the abuse from taking place." These phrases screamed at me. It's basically what I told WH when we started having our major issues. I never realized what I was doing, at least not when I was doing them. Call it my depression, call it being demanding and abusive; I think both are correct.

But, quite frankly, how does one know they are LB'ing if it's not told to them? That is the most difficult thing to get my mind around. My taker was in overdrive, while my giver thought she was doing things well, but really just hiding out.

I feel like that chapter particularly was a real eye-opener. I knew my issues, but to have them spelled out was really... well, powerful. I wish I had found this book before my WH's A... I am now looking forward to the next few chapters to figure out what I can do to work on changing those characteristics in me, so if my WH ever comes around, I'll be ready.

I hear ya AnnaBelle about this book making you look at yourself. In jest, I asked DH if he ever thought I was controlling, or manipulative and he answered YES!! I had to actually admit I am controlling. It's hard to look at what YOU are doing wrong, it is so much easier to point your finger at your spouse. However, I think that a good marriage requires JUST that trait.

I thought I'd chime in with my insights into Chapter 2 as I laid out Chapter 1 this morning.

The thing I found most interesting is Harley's definition of abuse:


He makes a point to differentiate between a one-time mistake that hurts our spouse, and consistent, hurtful behavior.

Also, intent to hurt is what makes it abuse, but often we rationalize hurting our spouse as it 'being for their own good' or 'the right way'. Because of this we often don't see or deliberate hurtful actions as abuse- we're just trying to do the right thing.

I like to control situations because I feel if I don't then no one we'll and this often leaves DHs opinions/ thoughts/ feelings out in the cold. I do it because I think it's the right thing to do, but that does not negate the fact that it is abusive because it doesn't take into account DH's feelings or thoughts.

Regarding the state of Intimacy: you would think that you want to be in Intimacy all the time, however the 'natural' state of Intimacy has its own pitfalls that must be addressed. Particularly its tendency to allow the Giver free reign over the Taker.

Healthy Intimacy that only dips an occasional toe into Conflict requires that the Taker's tendency to gain at the expense of our spouse is reigned in, however our Giver must also not be allowed free reign either. We need to resolve conflicts through safe negotiation, rather than allowing it to be resolved by our Giver and Taker, who only have ours or our spouse's immediate interests at heart, and not the interests of our Marriage as a whole.

I already discussed earlier my take on Withdrawal and the role one Spouse can play in recovering marriage. This is basically that the one with the knowledge 'goes first' in cleaning up their side of the street.

So, couple of questions:

For those of you who coaxed your spouses on board, how did you deal with/ over come the resentment you may have felt at the fact that YOU were making all these changes and it didn't seem like your spouse was. In theory I know that it's the right thing to do: work on yourself and clean up your side of the street without expectation of reciprocity at least at the beginning. HOW do you do that? I don't know that I could?

Also, in regards to the Love Bank, it seems that there are some people that almost need abuse to feel loved. They put up with physical and emotional abuse because they don't know any better and yet they stick by their abusive spouse day in and day out - actually stating that they love them. How does this square with the idea of a Love Bank where we will either avoid or grow to hate those that continually make withdrawals?

Finally, I was stumped by question 2 of the "Consider this..." section at the end of Chapter 1. How do you let each other know about withdrawals in a constructive way?

I know we discussed this earlier as going back to a renter/buyer mentality, however how do YOU specifically do this in your marriage? I'll try to think of how we do it, but honestly nothing is coming to mind.

Anyways - Thanks for the discussion so far, all - here's hoping more people chime in. I gained a lot from just these 2 chapters.

Yes, Vibrassa i agree with you totally about the movies. You find the right one & it's fairytales for the rest of your lives.Or so I believed .....

Now let's get in the real world !!!!!!!


for me the 1st chapter about Jim & Karen was looking at my life in words.It was down right scary.I agree they could have waited to have children. But that isn't the way it happened. Jim could of not worked as much but that didn't happen.

In my own M my H worked & worked some more to give me anything I wanted within reason. And all I did was take & complain about the hours. Not seeing that if I wouldn't wanting/or mentioning to him about wanting would he have felt need to provide to the degree he did.

So yes I do feel like men sacarfice their wives for money. Because at no time was it explained to me or Karen that the more we want the less we will see our husbands & the love we feel for them will lessen in return.( yes , I did realise the hours/time but not the losing in love with him )

Yes at times children do cause Financial burdens but it doesn't mean we love or want them any less.

So in Jim's case he was showing his love for Karen in providing for her finacially. Not the way she needed him to love her with UA & affection. I really identify with her.

I'm just really po'd now because no one told me how a marriage really is yes struggles, yes hardships but at no time did anyone say to me stop wanting you will not be in love with yor husband after xxxx amount of time for giving you everything you want.

Nor did anyone explain to me the SF part either. Until reading on this board about that is how men feel loved & show affection. I thought my H was trying to give me a guilt trip when he told me that. A few years back.

Please excuse me not trying to t/j here this is about the book. Jim & Karen in the bedroom scence brings back memories.

But I agree with sooly they should require more than a blood test. Maybe basic knowledge on HNHN & LB would do the trick.

8th - but NOW you DO know these things. And you can actually DO something about it. And you can teach your children the truth about how it works.

It is so sad and scary - Jim and Karen's story because it is what happens every day again and again and WE DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER.

But once we do know, we are empowered to change!

There's nothing more hopeless than to believe it's all about finding your 'soulmate' and making that ONE decision, if you make it wrong you're out of luck you've ruined your life. It makes me angry that our society does nothing but reinforce this concept.

However, it's heartening to know that ISN'T THE CASE.

It's simple (not easy, simple)
Just get that love bank balance high enough.

I've vowed to do my best to show DD, and any little ones that come after her, what it takes to sustain a passion-filled marriage.

Also, about FS - it's as much about being wise with money as it is about making money. The woman (in the traditional men/ work ; women/ stay at home and manage the house dynamic) can affect this by managing her material 'wants' to within a reasonable budget.

I am surprised at what a cathartic effect the first chapters of Love Busters seems to have had on the women readers. I wonder how many people read these threads, and like this one, how many are reading along, but not posting, and maybe not even reading the book.

But it encourages me to see that this book could have such an impact on even a few people, by holding up a mirror to their lives, to all our lives.

Most men feel as urgent about making money as women do about fixing up the baby's room, especially for the first born. Neither one of them knows what they should be doing, and they often don't understand enough of what the other is going through to appreciate each other, much less express it.

Women with small children send a lot of mixed signals to their husbands. They want domestic support around the house, help with changing and feeding the children, taking them off and away for a moment to themselves, and just to be around... at the same time verbalizing every worry about money for diapers to college, never asking about his job, and often losing interest in sex, affection, conversation, and recreation. Husband is forced to spend more time at work, and wife resents his not being in the next room every time she needs something or actually does want some conversation, recreation, or attention.

Having just had my first child I think that the mixed signals come from internal confusion as our priorities shift. I don't think it's intentional, but my capacity to worry about the littlest things and things that don't even matter NOW has grown exponentially. I feel pulled in a hundred directions, and there are a million and one fears, worries, thoughts racing through my head and they ALL seem important. I think the hormones are driving a lot of this.

However, knowing what I know and keeping my focus on my relationship with my husband has allowed me to navigate through this storm. I have definitely felt some financial pressure since DD was born. I am the primary source of our income right now and I used up ALL of my PTO on maternity leave. Money is tight with the baby and if I get sick - we're gonna have to scrimp somewhere.

BUT I know that these pressures cannot be allowed to over-whelm my relationship with DH. He's offered to get a second job which would be a death knell on our love for one another. It isn't worth trading the time and love we have for each other for a few extra bucks. If I didn't know about the importance of UA I'd probably encourage him to get that second job - my maternal instinct is crying out for it even though I know (rationally) we can get by without it.

You can bet hormones are driving a lot of this. At least you realize it, and are not in denial, as so many women are (or were during the 1970s and 1980s).


Money is good, and necessary, and if your husband feels he needs to make more right now, POJA it. Even if a man is working 80 hours a week, he has plenty of time left to spend with his wife. The important thing is not only how much time she wants and he wants, but that they don't squander the time they do have. Too many couples do this. The man gladly busts his back to make sure the bills are paid for Mom and baby, then when he does have time off, he is ignored, or chastised for not being around more while he was at work.

I applaud you for being aware of the dangers of this. Just don't go overboard the other way and have to worry about money.

I'm going to be extremely busy today and won't be able to post much, but I just wanted to express a thought before I forget it and because I have to go really soon.

This issue with women being at home with their children and wanting/needing the financial support of the husband - it occurred to me that prior to having kids I don't think I was a particularly controlling person. But after they came along, and I found myself juggling all the aspects of keeping house and pretty much raising them (except for the financial part) on my own - taking care of their physical and emotional needs, doing all the errands, balancing the checkbook, etc., I had no choice but to take a controlling role and become a bit of a control freak.

Someone has to run the operation, and I think sometimes men are intimidated to get involved, especially new fathers. They see how well those maternal instincts kick in and work, and I think they're afraid of getting in the way, of maybe even failing in that department, especially seeing how well their wives are doing at it and possibly feeling as though they're being graded.

Just a thought. They know their wife in the wife role, not the mother role, and it probably takes a man out of his realm in some respects.

Just saying there's no excuse for shutting out our dhs, but just thought perhaps this is where some women's personalities change a bit - out of necessity to some extent.