BT - don't be too impressed. I wish I could say I was feeling positive. I really feel more resigned, which maybe is what has made it easier to be/feel less emotional about it all. Maybe I come across as more positive, when for me it feels just so much less negative. I try very hard to stay positive for my kids, but positive is not how I feel most of the time.

And I can also say when I am not involved in "his stuff" (ignore the poker or the alcohol or the chatter), I can't get worked up and be disrespectful. When there has been a "don't ask, don't tell" practice in place in our marriage for 7 years, turns out you can get so numb you appear considerate.

I know if things were to be different for us, if I was going to try working on this again, this would all be a struggle (a very big struggle) for me. If that time comes, I will need the resouces of those who have been there before me.

So, don't count yourself out just yet for advice. I haven't even begun my journey and any lessons I can learn without having to repeat them are worthwhile.

Thanks for posting and the kind words.

ML - thanks for the link! I had stumbled across this at one point and then lost it. I had wanted to read it thoroughly.

My H did a coaching session with Steve and said he really thought it was helpful. He said he may opt to do additional sessions. He has his first regular session with Sandy tomorrow. I know he has been communicating with her often but I guess this is something more detailed. I think he has started the honesty lesson work.

I have struggled with the position that I am the best person to help him learn this new take on honesty and to hold him accountable (or so I have been told). That has been an emotionally exhausting role to play for the past 13 years and has been emotionally damaging to me. I am not able to play that role right now while trying to keep myself healthy. I did decide a couple weeks back to open up and tell his parents a long history of issues and the dishonesty surrounding it. I am hoping that they will provide him with a framework of accountability that he can use while he is starting this process.

Maybe, if he can take some of those initial steps and show a commitment and demonstrate some sustainability for being honest despite the consequences or image it projects to others, just maybe I can find the strength to revisit the possibility of reconciling. I feel selfish saying it like that. I feel disappointed in myself that I couldn't muster up the strength just one more time to fight for it again. I don't want to be that person that just gave up. But I can't put energy into rebuilding something that is not real, not until I know the conversations are honest.

Thanks again for the link.

First Question:

Do you consider a conscious decision to omit partial information from an answer to a direct question...lying? I am looking for opinions.

When you know what and why you are being asked a question, and you know you were hoping not to be asked the question but you were, is it a lie to not reply with the part of the answer you were hoping not to share? Or because you answered "half" of it honestly, but left out the "harder half" to say...is it a lie?

Is it "justified" for me to tell half a truth (not make a false statement but leave out the stuff I know I don't want to tell) when addressing the topic of honesty within the MB principals?

Does it matter if I tell myself during that decision that "if things turn out differently between us, then I would, or maybe I would, tell my H the other half of what I didn't say (assuming I even remember at that time what I had withheld)?

Second Question:

Don't Ask - Don't Tell.

My H and I have three young kids. Parenting them well is a top priority for me and I believe at this time I will be doing that as a single parent from my H. But to do that, I must be able to have meaningful honest conversations regarding the kids. It would be required for any M as well, but right now, the small piece I am trying to tackle involves interactions because of the kids.

I have learned during my M that if I ask a question my H does not want me to be honest about, he will lie to me. If I don�t ask, I can avoid being lied to. If I don�t ask, I will not be voluntarily told. This has devastated my M and eliminated even the slightest ability for me to trust. The deceit is current and ongoing. It might be slightly reduced but it is still present and I just choose to very infrequently �ask�.

I have always had a tendency to "say it like it is" and work hard through the issues. I prefer honesty even when it puts me in a negative light - I am human, make mistakes, say things I shouldn't, and have regrets. I can't change that, and honestly, it is way more effort to me trying to appear to others to be someone I am not. I have so much good...but it comes with some bad, and no one is perfect. I know that comes easier for me than for others but if the problem is there regardless, I would prefer to address it openly, honestly and quickly so that I can enjoy peace on the other side.

I have also learned over the years that the Don�t Ask � Don�t Tell policy applies to me in that my H generally does not or will not ask me anything. I don�t know if it is because he really doesn�t care, doesn�t want to know the possible answers, or if because of the level of dishonesty on his part feels it is not fair to ask honesty of me so avoids it all together (maybe if he doesn�t ask, then I won�t ask). I stopped trying to figure it out long ago. I feel I am left with one of two choices: constantly volunteer my �stuff� (tell without being asked), or say nothing (and never get asked). I spent the first half of my M volunteering �stuff� and being real while my husband has hid his true self (he told me two weeks ago when I asked what things he learned so far he had been dishonest about � he said his whole life, everything about himself). I doubt it is everything but I do believe that he lies to himself more than to anyone else which makes it hard to know how often he might really be honest.

When that blew up in my face with some more serious lies on his part and we ended up in MC the 1st time, I changed. He told me after that period that his IC agreed that spouses are not totally honest, and that he would not be either. I didn�t know what to do with that. Tried to �suck it up� because �it was how every other marriage was�. I didn�t even realize that at that point in time, I shifted into the second choice � don�t tell. Not that I really felt I had anything serious to say. Just that I would open my mouth to speak, and my brain would tell me to shut up. If he wants to know, maybe he�ll ask and I would be happy to tell. I won�t lie, but I just won�t wear it all on my sleeve. I didn�t ask. He didn�t lie. He didn�t ask. I didn�t tell. And I slowly died.

I have read in multiple posts for surviving an A that the WS needs to fully expose the A, and then expect and deal with fall out anger and withdrawal from the WS. That thinking you can try and save the marriage and not go through (versus avoid) the WS's reaction does not work. They will get mad, but they recover from the anger from the exposure because when the exposure is done from the place of saving the marriage, it is eventually forgiven. I also understand that for a M to recover from an A or from an addiction such as alcohol, the A must be 100% over with NC and/or the addict must be clean and in an active recovery program. What about honesty when it is so ingrained as a behavior? What do I do when I can�t avoid a conversation, right now mostly about the kids, and I know or can sense a lie? It is in no way equal to the pain or experience someone whose spouse is actively in an A or a practicing addict, but I feel that my H would need to have �NC with the lies� or �quit cold turkey and get a sponsor� which really in unrealistic with this issue.

Any insight in how to interact with someone whose protocol is Don�t Ask � Don�t Tell?

depends on what your not telling him.
Not telling him what you bought him for Christmas...ok
Not telling him you booked a $6000 makeover for yourself...not ok

1. make sure the lie your 'sensing' isnt a DJ
2. if you know it to be untrue say gently "that is not true"
3. Dont LB when having these discussions. The idea is to make yourself someone safe to talk to and be RH with

You sound like a wayward who is trying very hard to avoid the truth by splitting hairs, do you realize that?

I don't know how to answer your question otherwise unless you are more specific.

Hi lil'

Neither really. Just in general, anything in conversation with your spouse, that triggers in a person that avoidance reaction for fear of whatever (losing face, having to stop doing something, not getting something I would want, being embarrassed, being held accountable, etc.)

Example -
H calls home, I am in the garage on my laptop on MB posting. My mom is with the kids. She tells H I am upstairs with 2 of the kids when he asks for me. He suspects an odd tone in her voice. I call back 5-10 minutes later, H asks what was up and why I had two of the kids upstairs. I say I didn't have the kids upstairs, that I was in the garage, and mom must have been mistaken.

H senses "something" - call it a well trained gut after years of lying. H asks what was I was doing in the garage. I say "oh moving some of the recycling around and getting some stuff". I do not say I was online posting on MB because I do not want him to know I am posting (we are both on MB, both post, both see each others posts, and have completed the online MB program).

I lied to protect myself from whatever imagined consequences I assume my H will have or think (might be nothing...remember we are both on the MB site often) and because I did not want him to know what I was asking/saying on MB. I would prefer it to be a secret.

10 minutes later H sends me a text asking me to repeat what I said about why I was in the garage. I know instantly that he must know I posted (otherwise why else would he ask such a silly odd question with that kind of timing). So I say I was getting stuff and on the laptop posting on MB. H asks if I stated earlier I was posting on MB, I say no I did not because I would rather that he had not known I was posting considering our circumstances.

H asks me why my mom lied for me, I say she didn't lie but that she did not know where I was and assumed I had the kids. But H knows this is not really entirely true (have not discussed this with H yet) because H heard two of the kids' voices when talking to my mom and we only have three kids. And our oldest child repeated to H that grandma went to the garage to get me so she knew I was in there when she went to get me to call H back.

H asks me point blank if I think how I responded to his question was a lie. Did I consider it lying when he asked what I was doing and I did not tell him I was posting on MB, just the part that I was getting stuff. I reply with "I dunno, I'll ask Sandy tomorrow...". H is frustrated because when confronted to be held accountable, I can't decide for myself if I think that was a lie and hold off committing one way or the other until I get Sandy's opinion on whether it was a lie. Or maybe I just don't want to answer because I don't want to be honest and say it was a lie (having to admit I lied) or that I don't think it was (if I don't think I was lying but H does..and others do...then maybe there is likely no hope for my lying ways.

In short - H asked, I replied with a partial truth, but knew the more real truth but wanted to have my way of posting in secrecy, even if just for a while, so I didn't tell H the answer.

Now if you think I lied, let me add why I might feel justified in the above as not-a-lie: veteran MB posters tell newbies all the time, "Don�t tell your spouse about this site". Is that a lie to the spouse, when that newbie is actively posting and getting advice? It certainly is a lie by omission, but it is obviously a justified lie in their, opinion.

I feel the following: I don�t have the luxury that most MB posters have of knowing their spouse has no clue about MB. H is on the forum, and I would rather get my advice and digest it on my own, without knowing that he's seen all of the various opinions. For that reason, I did not tell H I posted originally on Monday at 12:30, nor about my follow-up posts.

This is a real example in my life right now. I have posted it as such that H asked the question and I lied (assuming you think I did). But does it change anything if our roles are switched and I asked the question and H lied (again...assuming)? Is it the same belief to lie about MB involvement and postings for newbies or veterans when their spouse is not on the MB site already versus when they are?

OK... so now what?

I just got more specific between posts with an example.

But really, really, other than surprises at Christmas or birthdays or stuff like that...does MB really support "limited honesty" patterns?

I will also add...Good Golly! This is a WHOLE lot of effort to avoid, cover up, keep secret something so minor as posting on MB when we already read each others' threads. I have spent more time typing the post on it and it has tainted the last 24 hours of interactions between us than would have been spent just using the 30 seconds and saying it in the first place.

It makes-a-me-crazy!

1 & 2. I don't think it is a DJ. I get those too but this is more about real honesty (old fashion lying). Something where when he is "caught" he will say had I not pressed for an answer, that he never would have told me XYZ.

If I was dealing with a PA issue, it would be similar to needing to find him in bed with the lover. I hear the "I didn't do it" right up until I can prove he did, then I usually get the "ok, you are right, I did it" and that can be followed later during discussions with "and yes I likely would not have told you if you had not known ABC that made me know you knew about XYZ".

3. You have me thinking...here are thoughts rolling out:
I get stuck here at safe person (and can't figure out what RH stand for - please let me know). I have the skill set to be a safe person to others. But the conversations with H are not honest so are not safe for me. I know some may feel like psychological abuse is not really abuse but for me, it really is damaging to me for whatever reason. The mind games, the control, the way things get twisted, that is not what was said, i didn't hear it right, or ending with I just don't remember. I tore myself up, second guessed myself constantly, got depressed, thought I was losing my mind, felt insane, withdrew, isolated from all friends and family, and landed here. I feel like the tornado somehow miraculously lost its grip on me and I hit the ground. I don't have it in me to go back in. It isn't safe for me. I can see more clearly from out here.

But I am struggling with those times when I know or sense he is being dishonest. And I have to find a way to deal with it regarding the kid topics. I however can do the following (unless this is not acceptable): When I believe or sense or know something to be dishonest, I can say just what you typed, "that is not true".

As in the past I will likely get something like "yes it is", or "you can choose to believe me or not, I can't control your thoughts", or "I can't make you believe me". I don't get the "you're right, it wasn't" but might get that eventually when I can prove I really could prove something.

I can't engage in further discussions after that because it is not safe for me (basically there is no discussions after I say "that is not true" and he responds with something that I am wrong and here's why). Can I just end the conversation at that point? I can be honest and say "that is not true" but I can't re-engage with the mind games that come afterwards that are aimed at convincing me that it is true (even when we both know it isn't...ala my 1st paragraph). Is it OK just to say it and leave it at that, or if I am not willing to go back in to the circular talk, do I then just not say anything and ignore it all together (which is what I have been doing 95% of the time for the past 3-4 years)?

Thanks lil'

This same post will be made on my spouse's thread - HopefulButScared.

This is a post from the spouse of HBS. My user name is LionOrGazelle if you want to see my posts. I thought you all might want to see a more complete picture rather than one sided versions considering there are so many of you seeing both of our posts but in the dark.

I received an "off MB" post from MBS from a post I made and decided I would stop the cycle of secrecy and deceit by exposing both of us to all of you. Some of you have read and posted on both of our threads.

I have seen the MB forum as an ultimate say place - as a way to have honesty with anonymity. There is no reason on earth that someone could not be honest with the other members here because you will never know us in our real lives. I was hoping it would be a way for HBS to have a network of people he could learn to be open and honest with that did not cause him so much distress from his known peers for being "less than perfect" and judge. I do not want to be the person who holds him accountable as Sandy and Dr. Harley have stated he so desperately needs. But the forum can be if he is willing to use it to its fullest open potential.

My original thread - Questionning myself in MN
His Original thread - First Post-Accountability and Honesty.

A major issue in our past relationship is lying and dishonesty by HBS. He has admitted it over several years, through numerous letters and apologies, through counseling and his earlier section on this very thread. It is on going, constant, pervasive and never ending.

In my thread, I posted a question on honesty and he emailed me off MB to address it. I thought his reply would better serve him and me by being open and honest on MB, rather than personally by email. I also know people have posted on both of our threads and likely did not know we are married (currently separated), that maybe we viewed the online MB program in March so are both in the public forum and the private forum with Dr. Harley, that we are both frequent posters and readers on MB, and both read the posts we each make. He even acknowledges that I will likely read his posts, which if you knew us, you would know that we both know how active we each read stuff.

I also posted an example that is real, but I changed it to read as if I was doing it. It was HBS that was being dishonest but I did not want to write this "he did, he said" email so I made it about me. The answers should not be the same but I was hoping if I made it about me, I would not be putting him down. But it is a real text and call exchange that occurred recently.

I posted a specific post here on May 12th within my thread: Re: May 12th Post His reply off MB was:

D, I will answer your question from MB directly on my own behalf. It was absolutely a lie, but is it a justified lie? Sandy told me it was a gray area. I am trying to get advice from the forum on the request you've made of me. It is a request that Sandy, and Steve Harley state I should say no to, and I want additional feedback from the forum before I answer what appears to be an incredibly important question. I don�t have the luxury that most MB posters have of knowing their spouse has no clue about MB. You are on the forum, and I would rather get my advice and digest it on my own, without knowing that you�ve seen all of the various opinions. For that reason, I did not tell you I posted originally on Monday at 12:30, nor about my follow-up posts.

Veteran MB posters tell newbies all the time, �Don�t tell your spouse about this site�. Is that a lie to the spouse, when that newbie is actively posting and getting advice? It certainly is a lie by omission, but it is obviously a justified lie in their, opinion.

I expect the answer you will get to your question will without a doubt be a chorus of �Of course it�s a lie!� But anyone so saying will not have been given all of the information. I am working hard to be honest with you (and others) on all issues under the current difficult circumstances, and I will continue to do so� J

Now..knowing what I know about MB principals, not telling your spouse might be true for people trying to save marriages where there spouses were not the ones that introduced them to MB. I introduced HBS to MB as I have been fairly aware of it for many years. I have come across it several times for different reasons: researching pain during sex, honesty in marriage, meeting needs, etc. Until we took the online program I had never gone through it in as much detail but the MB system is what I have nearly always believed my whole life even before I stumbled across it. And our issues and the reason I have proceeded with a separation is that HBS is dishonest and when he feels "caught" will lie or justify.

You have all posted various things about me to him. I thought I would set the record straight and hope you feel like you can ask me anything instead of relying on his version of information. So many of the things he has posted as "she didn't say" is him not being willing to ask.

I asked him very early on if he was receiving "private messages" off of MB, I stated I did not think it was a good idea considering he has such a strong drive to lie and attempt to gain sympathy that without a public forum, it puts him at a serious disadvantage to honesty. When I asked, he said, "I didn't know you could do that". He has said nothing else since then but I would be willing to guess he knew when he started going off MB with other members as he has, that he did not want me to know because I had already said I did not think it was a good idea. But like a typical pattern in our M, he decided to disregard my feelings and went private on MB anyways when I asked him about it today. When I asked him, he replied with a question (why do you want to know). Then said he was not willing to answer because he thinks I didn't answer his question about an EA.

I AM NOT HAVING AN EA! I am not having one with one person, with several people, as a group, in a meeting, through forums, or "in an amalgam" as I think he stated in a thread. I don't have time while trying to earn enough extra money to save our house and avoid bankruptcy (we had to take $ from our ROTHs to make this month's mortgage), trying to take care of 3 kids under 5, keep up a house, manage family relationships and take time for myself. I have not been to the gym since March, but HBS has. I don't have my family out to help with the kids when it is my nights, I do it on my own, but he has them out 75% of the time. I am lonely, withdrawn and isolated. This forum was the closest thing I thought I was going to have to a safe haven but I feel it has been hijacked by his dishonesty and his attempts to gain sympathy and friends.

HBS played online poker and participated in numerous chats and forums with poker people all over the world. He got his EN met through poker, chats/forums, porn and alcohol, and I have no idea what else. He spends so much energy trying to make it seem like the reason he is lying is I am having an EA. No PA. No EA. Nothing. I am definitely lonely and I need someone to talk to and connect with, and I would love to get my EN met by someone else and I will not be getting them met by a lying dishonest manipulative HBS, but I am not in love with HBS and I am not in love with anyone else. I daydream about others coming to my rescue and meeting my ENs so I am not so alone.

Recently I decided to "level the playing field". HBS has a laptop I don't use or see, so I decided to put a password on my home computer so I had some privacy too. He seems to strive on privacy and if he wants MB replies private, then why am I not entitled to the same? He used to have the password to BOTH the home earthlink and my personal hotmail account. I have never had his. I changed mine. I do not get private messages on or off MB and I don' want any. If you have something to say to me, say it here, don't hide behind secrecy.

I stopped answering the questions I know he was trying to ask even though he didn't ask it. Now, I will answer very narrowly only the question asked and nothing else. I will choose to lie by omission because I can and it is how HBS still chooses to treat me. If he thinks it is so healthy for a relationship or good MB practices to lie, omit, twist words, manipulate people or situations, then I can easily do the same.

HBS is a very intelligent litigation attorney. It is his job to control information, elicit the "right" responses, and get the outcome he desires. he is very good at his job. In court, you are told to only answer the question given, and nothing else. It is the other party's job to ask the right question. He uses words I have to look up in a dictionary (despite the fact that I am also college educated) and controls conversations with circular talk and redirection.

BTinTrouble...I feel terrible. You posted on my thread that you were impressed by me. I saw you were posting on HBS's thread too. I see he did not say any now...thing Looking at my spouse to you but he knows you posted. Seeing my ranting craziness above...I am sure you are less than impressed right now. I am sorry to have disappointed you and everyone else thought that I sounded somewhat sane. I am, lately most of the time. But the world created by HBS does send me over the edge and I don't recover well.

And I am ranting and venting because I have no one else to vent to...I am not having an EA because if I was, I would not be wasting my time with this forum. If I do not get this out and have my meltdown, I can't get myself together to go get my kids up and have a great time with them.

So yes, I locked him out of the home computer, I stopped answering his questions with unfiltered honesty as I had for so many years, I am choosing not to spend any time with HBS, I am proceeding as a single parent (not a single person) because I do not believe HBS will change his ways to save any marriage with me. He has told me he can't stop lying so I do not have reason to believe things will change. And I would never accept any decision to consider reconciliation on my part without two things: 1) A plan in place that allows OTHERS to hold him accountable to lies, and 2) an ownership and honest recounting of the lies in the past (historical honesty). For me, I cannot consider HBS to be the one to meet my EN until I know both the historical dishonesty and a describable plan to be held accountable.

He has told me he will not account for his historical dishonesty without me agreeing to the same. I can understand his position and if that is the ultimate position he wants to take, that is fine with me. He states he is working hard at being honest with me and others on all other issues but he is not, as it is still selective, partial and controlled honesty.

He has told me that he is being advised by Sandy & Dr. Harley that he will not disclose historical dishonesty under the current circumstances and he does not have a plan he can or will articulate or demonstrate that he is being honest and accountable. Other posters have suggested a 12-step program and possibly AA considering the alcohol use. In AA, you do not demand or wait for others to amend to you, you own your own issues and move forward in your healthy ways. You don�t say you will only acknowledge past hurtful behaviors and apologize for them if the other person says so too. I would support HBS attending an AA program because I do believe his alcohol use can be abusive and is definitely used both to cope and as a justification for poor behavior or choices (for example, one time he got too drunk and that was his excuse for swimming naked during the day in a public lake with his group of male and female friends with pictures taken when I was not there and had already stated that they did this last year and I did not want him participating, or another time when I found a bar condom in our car and he said he did not buy it for someone else but for us even though I have an allergic vaginal reaction to most foreign materials so we didn't use condoms and then he said he was too drunk and can't remember where he bought it, when and with whom.)

So...I love the sane person I can be when I am not in the tornado of craziness I am with HBS. I can be that person when I am not sucked into this chaos and insanity. His dishonesty is like a drug addiction in our relationship and that is why I have chosen to disengage. I will not engage as a spouse or a co-parent with HBS in the state as he is.

So, if you want to ask me something, do it. If you want to help HBS, help him be open and honest with you and keep him accountable in this forum publicly. Help him focus on what he can do for himself and maybe find a group or AA to help him in his process.

If you think he isn't lying to you now, you are kidding yourself the same way I did for 13 years. He may not make up wild lies like he went on an African safari, but he controls every last word he puts into his posts so that he can "win in the court of his peers".

Sorry, just couldn't keep it in any longer.

LoG, I have a couple of questions for you. The first is perhaps the most important, and without an answer, the others will have no bearing:

• Why are you here?

This is Marriage Builders, the place where people come to mend and strengthen their marriages.

This is how I have constructed the chain of events between you and your husband's posts. I'm trying to be brief. If I am in error, please correct me.

You came to MB and then brought your husband here. He seems to have accepted the "wake up call" and is now actively working with the Harleys to address his shortcomings in the marriage.

But as he has done so, you have withdrawn. It seems like you do not want to work the MB program. You are now lashing out in righteous indignation at your husband's failures but seem to take no responsibility for your own part in the relationship.

What's up with that?

What is it about the MB program that now has you unwilling to apply it? Why now are you so adamant that you want to end the marriage?

What really p!sses me off upsets me is that you are saying a lot of the same things my wayward wife said. Once she started her affair.

Until then, we were the picture-perfect couple. I have photos and eyewitness accounts to that affect. But once she went wayward, all of a sudden I became Dr. Evil, our relationship hadn't been happy for almost the entire time we were together, blah, blah, blah.

I'm sick of hearing this rewrite of history.

Did I lie to her? Yes, much in the same way your husband has done: to avoid confrontation. Was it the right thing to do? No way. I'm a person who chooses my fights. And when I choose to fight, I fight to win. Some fights aren't worth the collateral damage, in my opinion. But I will never commit a "lie of omission" again.

Look, if you want to end your marriage, that's your business. But it doesn't explain why you're here trying to justify it.

I am here because I believe that MB can work for many people. I started here, I did introduce it to HBS and he has stated ON THE SURFACE that he embraces it. BUT...in my real life, he does not. And I wasn't saying anything about it.

He says to me he will do anything to save this marriage. Except he will not be accountable for his historical dishonesty and has not been able to articulate a plan to get and be honest going forward.

I am tired of sitting here quietly while he swaggers around MB as if the focus should be on me and what I might be doing or not doing. I have told him repeatedly that if he were to be able to address the historical and current honesty, I would be happy to work on whatever issues he has with me. And there are some as I am not perfect in anyway. I can only stop my crazy right now by removing the things/people that continue to create and encourage it.

I have NO CHOICE but to have a life long relationship with HBS because we have kids. That can be as pleasant or unpleasant as he chooses to make it. MB may not be what works for HBS & I, but it will be something I use in WHATEVER relationship I have in my future. That is why I am on this site.

My experience with HBS is that I share my issues with honesty, it is returned with criticism and judgments, but never with an open honest sharing of his struggles or faults. I would have been fine working the MB program to resolve my issues and his other issues if there was just honesty in that exchange. But honesty is the foundation of this program.

I would take a disrespectful judgment EVERY DAY over this constant lying and deceit. The other love busters are all pretty obvious because they are stated or obviously done. If I had an AO, or if he made a demand, of if I have an annoying habit, or if he does things independently...they are all obvious. But lying is SECRET. It doesn't work to work on honesty when the person who is dishonest won't be honest. It is deadly because the only way I know I am being LB'ed is to snoop, fret, worry, etc. and I can't do that anymore because it is not who I want to be. I don't like the person I am when I feel I have to do it. And when I have snooped, I find things. I don't want to find any more things.

And I too choose my fights. I used to fight for the M and snooping to keep him honest was the only way I knew what might be going on. I don't choose this fight any more.

I do not believe MB can be remotely successful without Radical Honesty. But I have shared 98% of my life experiences with him. I am holding back my 1 or 2% and stopped sharing to avoid the return criticism of "that is why I lie". I had a tough upbringing but he will throw back at me the things I said I did when I was growing up. Yes, I made some poor choices. But they were choices I made, and I owned them and I made amends for them any time I could. HBS has a need to save face that is stronger than his need to honest with himself or me, or save this marriage.

And I am sorry your spouse went wayward on you. I have spent 13 years changing every aspect of my life to make sure I didn't. I know I am human and make mistakes. I could only remove people and places that I knew would be tempting for me to keep myself from being wayward. And I can't cut anymore out. And you said you won't lie by omission ever again. HBS can't say that even today.

And yes, it is my choice to divorce. I have told HBS I wanted to move forward with a divorce and he said he wants to save the marriage ad will do everything he can to do so. He has asked me not to file. So I haven't. I just don't know why he wants me to kee waiting here - I don't know what he wants me to wait for.

And I got tired of the secrecy of the postings. So I posted and ranted and spent some time in the crazy that is our M.

LoG,

I admit I haven't read your H's thread, will do so soon and (hopefully) will have more to comment on.

Just to pick a small part of your thread, the PM function on MB does not work, it has been disabled due to the vulnerability of many posters on MB.

Ok, I have read both of your threads.

RH = radical honesty by the way.

My overall impression is that O&H (openness and honesty) has become a huge EN for you and you are not feeling the O&H. I really dont understand why you both choose to lie about what you post on MB since you both admit to reading each others threads. I suggest either stop lying, or stay off each others threads.
You state that recently you have accelerated the dishonesty in a tit for tat way by putting a password on your computer.

What would it take for your H to do for you to feel that you can be more O&H with him?

MB can and does fix fairly miserable marriages, but the chance of the improvement is best when both spouses follow ALL the programme, not just cherry picking the bits that make THEM feel better.

Have you 2 done the ENQ, and know what each others top 3 EN's are?
Also if you havent I suggest reading "why women leave men" (on this site) and since historical honesty seems to be important for you, that you look at the HH chapter in the back of SAA. It may be in another one of the books, I dont have all of them

This is a non-answer.

Do you want your marriage or don't you?

And what is your plan?

I haven't read you say anything positive about moving forward with your marriage.

So in other words, you're done with with HBS and you just want MB to bless your decision? Why are you not posting on the Divorcing/Divorced forum?

Except that you haven't been honest. You've admitted it.

And there you have it.

I repeat: This is Marriage Builders, not Marriage Enders. Your presence on this forum seems to repudiate everything it stands for, and you have negated your own stance by your words above.

98% honesty is like being "a little bit pregnant." And you're proud of this?

Your husband is working with the Harleys and you are not. Yet you continue to criticize him and claim the moral high ground.

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

He is not forcing you to post here. You brought him here! Why?

"Secrecy of the postings" on a public forum? What are you talking about? The two of you hovering over each other's postings is just arguing in public. You do know that, don't you?

You're being disingenuous, LoG. You are being every bit as dishonest as you accuse your husband of being. Step back for a moment and look in the mirror!

Ah, thanks on the RH explanation.

You are right, O&H is my #1 EN and is also a LB by HBS when he lies. Prior to formal MB I have known O&H has been a critical need for me and have expressed that to HBS. Post MB it was identified as my #1 EN as well and highest rated LB.

I don't believe I have lied in my postings on MB. Please let me know where you think I lied in my postings on MB. I would like to re-read it make sure I communicated appropriately. I did state in my thread I have stopped being 100% O&H with HBS, but not that I am lying in the posts. I also know that by what I have last posted, I was honest about the very anti-MB position I have taken with HBS at this time, I was honest that I stopped being honest to HBS on things, I admitted I made my computer login private at home, I changed my personal password for my email, and that I was "leveling the playing field". I knew full well this would bring the fury out on my from some MB posters like it did from Fred_in_VA. He can be mad at me for all I said, but I was telling the truth about how I feel and what choices I am making. I didn't lie to make myself look better, and I didn't lie and tell the forum I was working MB when I am not.

I did link HBS's original post where he claims he saw my post after he posted but really had seen it before, and after printing out the IM messages from the exchange on the topic, bringing the copies to him and showing them to his parents as well, admitted to me and them that had I not "somehow known he was lying" he did not believe he would have ever told me he had lied in that post to gain sympathy from the forum. BTW - I didn't know, I had a strong hunch, and HBS knows I didn't know for sure.

It is the sentence referring to the fact that had I not somehow already known, he would not have told me about the lie, it is this very level of "honesty" HBS exhibits currently that exhausts me. It is the reason I will not engage in the MB program with him.

And in HBS's posts and to me he will say he is being O&H when he is not, and he knows it, and off of this public forum will look for the "justifications" he needs to keep on his path. I was open and ready for the backlash. Just hoped posters like Fred_In_VA was going to be just as willing to rant at HBS as he was me. It is a lot easier to attack me when I share what is really happening at home versus the image that is created by the posts.

Yes, I put a password on my computer. HBS is communicating privately off MB with other posters (not thru MB private message but directly by email - I have a copy). He is stating that veteran posters promote justified lies when your spouse is not cooperating with MB (per his private email to me). He has stated that Dr. Harley and Sandy have told him not to disclose his historical honesty and any plans for current honesty (other than him saying the meaningless words of "I am being honest now"). So yes, I stepped up my privacy to match that of my spouse's. Until I asked him for a separation he had my password and would log onto and use my personal hotmail account. I changed it now as I have never had access to his personal emails, then or now.

What would it take for my H to do that would allow me to be O&H with him again. Full historical honesty and his plan for current accountability. No more secrecy.

I am sure MB can fix crappy marriages, even those that are over as far as I can see. I have told HBS since we took the MB online course that if he were to do the two plan items above, I would have agreed and participated in the MB program with him. Instead, he has chosen he justifiable lies route and the Sandy & Dr. Harley have advise him not to.

That is why I posted his private email to me. If Dr. Harley & Sandy tell him "no-go" on what you asked me would have made a difference, that is fine, has always been his choice to be dishonest at all costs, impasse hit, M over. Nothing more that I should be waiting for. As Fred_In_VA has stated, I should file for divorce and move to that thread. I was not looking for Fred's or MB's approval to file for divorce, just an ex-liars perspective or something insightful to tell me what HBS wants me to wait for...because he can't explain it.

We completed the full online 2 day program. HBS lied to be in the last 10 minutes as we were trying to print the agreement form. I said I was not going to sign it when he wasn't ready to be honest about the actual program we had just spent 2 days and $1k doing.

I do not have my notes with me as I am traveling for work tonight but yes, we did complete the forms throughout the program so would have each other's top ENs. Oddly enough, HBS put O&H in his top 3 ENs if my memory serves me. I remember entering it per his survey and being more than surprised but said/asked nothing. That does not match with his behaviors or what he expects of others in his life. I think it might have felt/arose as more important at the time we completed the forms because I had already just asked for the separation at that time because of the level of lying and because HBS has expressed how distraught he was that he lied because he wanted to appear perfect to others. I think it would have been very difficult for him to have to complete a list of ENs and thinking "if I don't put O&H up there in the top, she will think I don't value it and that won't go to fixing the M". I also attribute my hunch to the fact that when we was reading off his answers for me to complete, it was the only one he changed after saying something different. Just a hunch...but that is usually all I have ever had to go on.

I have read why women leave men on the site. Just glanced thru it again to refresh. Again, my copies are all in my truck but it is very fitting to how I got here and why I moved for divorce. I have not started the books or CDs. I won't let myself take any more steps.

That is not the answer others want to hear and makes me an easy target...but again, it is nothing but honest. At least HBS knows really where I stand.


The Saga Continues...


Also - since I first started this reply (got interrupted a lot and had to come back several times) - something happened. My IT guy called because I was not able to get into my office VPN from this laptop so I could work remotely. While waiting for him to try and fix settings, I decided to uninstall programs no longer needed on my laptop to clean it up. I usually leave this smaller laptop at home on the main floor but took it this time because it is so much lighter and easily fit into my one bag for this trip.

I went to add/remove programs to delete unused ones, and eventually selected HBS's Full Tilt Poker icon because on 4-24-2010 he emailed me saying per his talk with Sandy that he was committing to not gambling on/with poker online or otherwise, free or paying. So when I went to delete the program and clicked on it, it said "last use 5-14-2010". I was out of town from 5-13-2010 not returning until 5-16-2010 and this laptop was at home with him staying at the house for the kids in my absence. I have not changed any passwords on this laptop, and he has his own laptop as well from his work he keeps with him. So from what I can tell, it appears in my absence he went to the poker program on the 14th despite the fact that he has said he was choosing otherwise.

That is all I know for now because I just discovered it but for me, is just the same craziness I encounter every day. Might be a big deal, might not be. I don't know until I research more, and in a normal M, I would have asked. We don't have a normal M. In the last few years of our M, I would not have even said I saw it - I wouldn't have wanted to set him up for failure by saying what I saw and asking for an answer which triggers his impulse to lie. When I don't call him on this stuff any more, I don't have to be the reason he lied, and I don't have to add one more lie to the history books. And yes, I know that makes me part of his problem in our M by not calling him on it but I can't neglect my own mental health right now which is why I moved towards divorce. And yes, he will know now that I saw it and that is just fine with me.

And lildoggie - please keep posting. I appreciate the fact that you took the time to go read both posts and your thoughtful and direct approach and would like to know more of your thoughts.

I am not less than impressed with you.

Millers Law: Assume what a person is saying is true, and then try to understand what it could be true of.

I dont fully understand. That doesnt mean I must immediately think you are not impressive.

I feel bad for both of you.

HBS because dishonesty is very difficult to break. I assume he means the things he says, and DOES want to be better. Its hard.

I am sure you really are sick of it.

Sucks people have to be unhappy I guess. I personally am not at all bothered by your rant, or even whether HBS lied or not.

I use this place as a sort of therapy / record base, and maybe get some ideas or encouragement here and there. I posted probably 2/3rds of the posts on my thread.

I rant =D

I dont begrudge you yours =D

Sorry I did not answer your question. I may have missed it in trying to read through the large font used.

No - I do not want this marriage. No. I. Do not want. This. Marriage. This marriage sucks.

My plan is to protect myself and my kids from further damage from HBS's dishonesty. I do not have anything positive in my M to move forward to/with.

As I stated in my reply to Lildoggie - I am not looking for MB or your stamp of approval or blessing to divorce. It would be ridicuous to think I would even look for that from this sight. I can make that decision for myself. I was hoping someone that was a recovered ex-liar might have some insight, for me or for HBS on the ways he could work on O&H in his life (forget the M, just do it for the life). Your posts suggest you might have some insightful lessons for HBS if you should be so inclined to address the continuing saga as he describes it.

If you or someone else wants to move this thread to the divorcing/divorced section, I can follow it there as well and am fine accepting that decision as the right place for the posts.

YES YES YES I admitted it... I am not perfect. Never said I was. Pretty sure I will mess something up tomorrow. I even have 14 more minutes tonight left to do something stupid. I won't be honest with HBS as I have outlined in my posts. If it makes more sense to you to pin it on my decision to not share with HBS now, I can't stop that. It doesn't help me, or him. But it is a valid opinion or judgment.

No, I am not proud of anything about my M right now. Not one thing except my three great kids. It is all crap. I am embarrassed for staying. I am embarrassed for what I have accepted for many years. I am embarrassed that I have become someone I don't like anymore. I am no longer embarrassed to face the judgments of others for seeking a divorce. I used to feel less embarrassed to be married in any relationship than think of myself as divorced. I don't feel that way any more.

HBS can work with anyone he wants. He can and will choose to work any program any way he wants. He is influenced by people like you. Do you have any valuable insights you can share with him? It might just be your $.02 worth but have you shared your "liar in recovery" work with him? Have you shared your story on how you decided you will never lie by omission again. Did it cost you your marriage? Was it just one time too many? What happened to you to make you so committed to never, ever do it again. Tell us both how you did it. Or is the focus always so much on what I do, like what it means that I put a password on my computer. I said why I did it. You might not like my answer, but I gave you one. He can discover anything he wants about me, spy, load keyloggers, drive by my work, ask others, put a recorder in my truck, hide under the bed and see what things I say. It will give him an easy rest for work on himself. But he will find nothing.

And you don't have to buy it. Never asked you to. I asked for opinions, insights, answers. Not sure I got much of those from your replies but I will re-read them again. I can see through your anger into your hurt over your WW decision to have an A. Your pain screams through your all caps signature line about filing for your divorce. I am sorry if my actions hit on things for you that are personal. I know it is impossible for people sometimes (a lot really) to separate their own stuff from the stuff going with others. My posts obviously really anger you and if I am not sharing what and how you would like on this thread, you can stop replying and leave me as the unwilling worthless complete waste of a response that it appears I may be. I may be beyond all help and this is all my problem and I did it all and it is all my fault, then I am not worth the time you spent typing a reply because it won't help me anyways.

Lastly, my reference to the secrecy of the postings had to do with the fact that we were both posting, and I don't care he reads mine, he obviously doesn't want me to read his or any replies from people like you. We post on the same thread within the Harley section for those who have completed the online or live program. And I wanted to make sure my readers could read what he said about me and him, and his readers could do the same from me. It can only help to make both of us accountable. That was my insight anyways.

This is a public forum and that is THE VERY REASON I felt it was important to make others aware of who each of us was. When HBS gets a personal email on the 12th of May from "a MB poster" in response to his "now off MB posts" and his "saga", he has continued to keep his actions cloaked in secrecy and the emails contain all of the focus on figuring out what I am doing. If you support that for him, yet criticize me for it, that is disingenuous and would also warrant a mirror check.

Oh, and BTW, I suggested he move in RIGHT NEXT DOOR to me and the kids and he PARKS HIS VAN IN THE GARAGE. We have NO curtains. He can watch me all he wants through the windows. He would know everyone and anyone that would come over. He can even watch to see what time I turn off the light and go to bed. I am not having an EA, a PA, or any other A at all, and I am very, very, very sorry your W did. But I didn't and haven't and I invested a great deal of intentional effort to make sure I stayed away from circumstances that would have even been tempting. That sir, I am VERY proud of!

BT-
I don't know what to say. I am not usually short on words.

Thanks for your compassion. Sitting in a hotel room at midnight reading and responding to crap about my failed marriage was not what I wanted to do tonight when I should have been tryng to sleep before a long day tomorrow.

But now you have my crying. Not a bad thing I guess. I usually don't let it go.

You don't understand. Me neither really. Not sure I ever will. And it does suck.

And I really like how you have used this forum for yourself and its theraputic possibilities. It's a little like journaling with some feedback or encouragement from the netherworld.

And I have previously read some of your posts (not all yet). I am sorry for your pain. I wish I had some insights in how to help turn your W back towards you and your M. I can't help you because I can't help myself on the same topic. I can describe the stuck feeling, the done feeling, maybe even how I got here. I can't help with the future yet though. Thanks for not taking your rants over her actions out on me for mine.

Good night (to me and you eventually as well).