I finally talked him into eating the egg AND I didn't eat any of it. He said I was weird to make him eat it, but understood why

Peace reigns in the pantry again.

My husbands hates country music to I got 4 free tickets to see Travis Tritt. I asked him to go and he said country I love country. So he went. I thanked him for doing something I like with me.

Ok y'all, I need some advice on POJA.

Last year I was really disappointed on Mother's Day when H wasn't helping get everyone ready for church and the kids were complaining about going to church, and I ended up just leaving by myself and driving around, finding a nice spot to read the Bible and listen to the radio, etc.

I was partly influenced by cat's posting about just wanting to spend some time alone, so I thought maybe I'd rather do that than struggle to get everyone to church against their will.

H doesn't like going to church, but he agreed to raise the kids in church, meaning, going to church as a family, etc. I guess if we POJA'ed church (as opposed to me holding him to his commitment), he would refuse to go. I'm not sure if taking the kids to church is something to be POJA'ed or if it's a non-negotiable. (In defense of it being a non-negotiable: I was honest about it before we even got married, and also I have to factor in my responsibility to my kids and to God, right?)

Anyway, we often don't go to church because I dread the struggle. When we do go, H's attitude and the model he presents to the kids is along the lines of, "I really don't want to go, I'm going to complain and drag my feet and see if you change your mind. The kids will see that they don't necessarily have to get ready when you tell them to. If you insist, I will tell the kids to get ready but in a tone that says "we have to humor mommy." "

I want to emphasize that I am *not* talking about POJAing going to church in general. For now, I'm just asking for help in POJAing going to church on Mother's Day this Sunday. I feel quite resentful and have been trying to figure out how to bring it up in a respectful way, following the rules of negotiation. That's hard because of my feelings of resentment.

The past two weekends we've gotten into arguments over parenting issues, so we are hovering between states of conflict and withdrawal right now, I think. I'm struggling with continuing to be H&O vs. the temptation to just concentrate on my "side of the street" re. LBs and ENs. It's tempting to stop trying to be H&O, and just be resentful without telling him, until it boils over.

I know that I should keep being H&O. I've been doing that, but H saw it as an LB. I wonder if I wasn't doing it in a way that practiced *respectful* negotiation and the Rule of Protection. I wonder if my "sharing my H&O" was coming out as an SD or DJ.

So. How to POJA going to church on Mother's Day without SDs or DJs... in 5 words or less??? lol

Here's some of my ideas:

start by some sort of assurance that this is not a demand, and that this conversation is not an attack?

-- "I'd like to tell you something that I want, but I don't want it to come across as a demand."

state my desire as a request?

-- "I would like for us to go to church together on Mother's Day, but not if I have to struggle to get people to go, and not if it turns into arguing."

and then another part that is very important to me, but I can't figure out how to say this without DJing. This is just my first pass at how to say it, I'm open to suggestions:
(Ok, I know the following is not a good way to say it at all. It's a loaded issue and there's more to it than just going to church. It's also why we've argued the past two weekends, too.)

-- "I don't like it when I'm trying to get the kids to go, and you model that it's ok to ignore me and drag your feet, and then when you do "back me up" you say it in a way that the kids know you don't really want to go either, but you are giving the impression that you are just "humoring mommy". I think that is having a really bad effect on the kids' attitudes. They are acting more and more disrespectful of me."

Ok, ideas/thoughts/suggestions?

"I would like for us to go to church together on Mother's Day."

Period.

"I'm struggling with how the kids act disrespectful toward me, and I'd like your help with teaching them that that is not okay. Do you have an suggestions on how we can accomplish that?"

This wouldn't be honest though. If he is going to act the way he's been acting, I would prefer he stay home. I am struggling with weighing the harm done by the example he's setting when he goes with us, vs. the harm done by me taking the kids and him staying home.

I.e., I don't simply want him to go to church with us. What I want is:
"I would like for us to go to church together on Mother's Day, but not if I have to struggle to get people to go, and not if it turns into arguing. If I don't have your enthusiastic and visibly sincere support then I want to take the kids and you stay home."


I have said this the past two weekends. We ended up arguing. So he knows I have this concern, and he denies there is a problem. (As in, I shouldn't feel this way.) That is his solution.

So, how to phrase it, given it is a continuation of what I've been saying, not a new revelation, and given that he's already told me I shouldn't feel that way?

How about this, Jayne:

H, how would you feel about enthusiastically joining me at church for Mother's Day. It would mean a lot to me. And it would also mean a lot to me if you would help me corral the kids so that they are respectful and polite.

I reverse-babbled the not-feel-that-way statement with, "You're right. I shouldn't feel this way." Then he would get all smug, and see? I told you that was the solution! Only to discover later that I still DO feel that way, so telling me I shouldn't doesn't change anything. Surprise! lol.

How about telling him that you want to go to church together as a family on Mother's Day and you'd like to do it without any of the usual fuss, and ask him if he'd be willing to make that happen for you? What can he say to that? He can say yes, he's willing, and then either be competent or incompetent at making it happen, or he can say no, he's not willing. Right?

How about "This Sunday is Mother's Day so I really want the kids to join me in church. I would love it if you would join us as well, what do you think?"

These are all good ways to phrase it. Thanks! I will probably use a sort of combination...

"This Sunday is Mother's Day so I really want the kids to join me in church. How would you feel about enthusiastically joining me at church for Mother's Day. It would mean a lot to me. I sense that the kids can tell when you are going grudgingly."

Ok that's longer than 5 words, but what do you think? Is the last sentence too much? I think it may be, but it is an important part of my request. I *don't* want him to come if he's going to act like he has been.

Most of the time when I ask if he's willing to go to church, he grudgingly agrees... and he carries it out very grudgingly. After a few times, I ended up taking the kids without him. He was relieved. The kids were like, "What? You mean we don't *have* to go to church? How come Daddy gets to stay home?"

It really pains me that they are being brought up to think of church as some horrible punishment to try to get out of. When we first moved here a year and a half ago, they LOVED this church and even asked "when is it going to be Sunday again? Can we go to church this Sunday?" So I'm pretty sure their attitude now is a result of seeing their dad's attitude.

It's taking a LOT of restraint to not add "If you are going to go grudgingly, I'd rather you stay home." I DO need to leave that part out, right.

Now, I have to work on saying it without resentment... right?

This is not very "MB" of me, so please keep that in mind:

It sounds to me as if YOU wouldn't enthusiastically agree to him going to church with you. If that is the case, then here is how I would approach it and often DO approach it (and I have a husband who is reluctant to go to church too):

"Hun, this Sunday is mother's day and I'm planning to take the kids with me. Can you come with us without bellyaching?"

If he says yes, then starts the bellyaching Sunday morning, respectfully ask him to quit his bellyaching, or stay home. His choice.

That way you still get to do what you want. (That's the part that's not so MB, I guess.)

I go through this a lot. And to be fair, my husband doesn't bellyache very often, either.

In my church, we couldn't get married without his agreement to raise any future children in the faith. It was one of our vows. So it is not up for POJA, even if he's no longer enthusiasitc about it now.

So, it sounds like the real issue is that you think your dh is modeling bad behaviour to the kids.

I think you can poja this. "DH, the last few weeks it seemed like you really didn't want to attend church. I don't want to force you to do something you don't want to. How do you feel about coming to church on Mother's Day? If you don't want to, I'll just take the kids".

I think you have to make it permissible for him to stay home. Or to at least discuss it with you.

Don't mix the two issues of going to church and his modeling bad behavior, even though they are related. Right now, just keep it simple. You and the children plan to go to church on Sunday, Will he please help get them dressed and manage them during the service?

Instead of waiting until Sunday morning, get your husband and the children involved Saturday night by laying out all their clothes, having them ironed, and shoes shined. That takes some stress off Sunday morning, and it also gets everyone involved in taking responsibility for a short task, instead of an entire production of getting the clothes ready, getting baths, dressing and getting to church on Sunday morning. It instills good habits, too.

When you do bring up the children not being respectful, don't blame him. Just bring it up, and bring up examples that don't involve him, as well as ones where he does contribute. Unless he is a dunce, he will figure out his roles.

I *like* thinkin's suggestion. Oh, how I'm tempted to say that!

But I think Happy and Retread's suggestions might just be better geared toward maintaining a positive LB$ balance. Darn it.

Especially the part about keeping the two issues separate.

He definitely knows how I feel about the kids being disrespectful, and he was supportive tonight when they started acting up. So that's something, even though when I've tried to tell him he was dismissive.

Ok how's this:

"This Sunday is Mother's Day and I'm planning to take the kids to church. I don't want to force you to do something you don't want to. If you don't really want to go, I'll just take the kids".

I would say "If you aren't really enthusiastic about going" but I don't want him to smile/smirk at the use of MB terminology.

HI Jayne, good to see you!


Way to go, jayne and Mr. 241!


I think you're going to do great! Coming here and thinking it through days ahead instead of letting it catch you off guard.

Jayne you all are doing a lot of things the MB way, and I think an update would be great for the new folks here, to see how it works in action. There was a thread about How to have UA time when you have small kids; what suggestions do you have? What's working well right now?

I talked to him about it last night. Since this was a request, implying a response, I couldn't do it in a drive-by. To make it seem less like an ambush (past history tells me that he wouldn't react positively to my just coming at him with a request) I started by remarking that this Sunday was Mother's Day, and discussing sending flowers or something to our moms.

When I said "This Sunday is Mother's Day" it looked like he tensed up, but he relaxed when I started talking about what we could do for our mothers, so I think that was a good call.

Then I said the bit about taking the kids to church and that I don't want him to go unless he really wants to.

He said "When?" (As in, when did I plan to take them to church! I don't remember if I knew that was what he meant right away or if I had to ask.) I said "For Mother's Day." He said "I'll go." I said, "I don't want you to go if you don't want to." He said "I'll go." He isn't seeming very enthusiastic, he's being kind of grim when he says it, so again I say "If you aren't enthusiastic about going, I'd rather just take the kids myself." Again he says "I'll go" but again in a kinda grim manner. So I go ahead and say I'd rather he not go if he's going to act like he doesn't really want to go. Again he says "I'll go."

Maybe I shouldn't have kept saying that I didn't want him to do it if he didn't want to. But he wasn't saying that he wanted to go, or that he was happy to go, or that he was enthusiastic about going. He just said "I'll go" and he sounded grudging.

My advice to someone else at this point would be to not try to mind-read, and just accept what he said at face value, and if he wasn't being honest then that's his own responsibility. Except I don't want the consequence of him acting grudging and grumpy about "being forced to go to church" in front of the kids.

I've been trying to figure out what would've made me feel better about this. Not that I went into it with expectations. If I had tried to predict, this is probably what I wold've predicted. He would say that he'll go, because to not agree to go on Mother's Day would be pretty blatant. But he would not really want to go, he would only do it because it would seem pretty bad to refuse to go.

What would've been my dream response? Hmm. Probably him saying "Oh honey, I'm sorry that I've acted in such a way that you would even consider wanting me to stay home rather than accompany my family to church, and on Mother's Day no less! I certainly want to make amends, and I want us to be on the same page about parenting, and present a united front, and support each other. I am sorry I've showed the kids that you deserve anything less than respect. Why don't we stay up and discuss your feelings for the next hour, and then I'll give you a massage and we can have SF?"



Don't worry, I didn't have that expectation.

Oh well. Next step, to implement Retread's advice about preparing ahead of time so ppl aren't rushed and short-tempered Sunday morning.

Thanks y'all for all the advice! Keep it coming!

Hi Neddie,

Thanks for your optimism but I don't really have any good suggestions for UA. I really don't feel like my ENs for Conversation and RC have been being met. Of course the Conversation is a longstanding issue, but lately he hasn't had hardly any time for RC or much else either.

LOL, Jayne. I could see myself doing this EXACT same thing, trying to get a better reaction out of my husband. LA would have cautioned me to 'check my intent' on asking the question. You said what you wished he had said...so I think your intent in asking the question was not quite aboveboard, hence the entire conflict.

(My H would have AO'd after the second go-round of "I really don't want you to go if...", but that's another story. )

Anyway, since you can't undo that conversation, I agree that yeah, you'll just have to let it go. You've made your wishes known. IMO, bringing it up YET AGAIN can be LBing. Maybe in the future, in a similar situation, you could have just laid out your wishes and your boundary upfront.

"I'm happy that you're going. I love going to church as a family. I'm really unhappy and disappointed when we go and the boys act up and we sense that you are not there enthusiastically. I will be upset if this happens on Sunday."

Maybe someone else can think of a better way to say that?

I can't think of a better way to say it but I am anxiously waiting replies.

This sounds a lot like my husband. He says what he is "supposed" to say because he has these expectations from childhood. I hear it even today from his mother. If he told her he didn't really enjoy church, she would say, "Of course you like church, you are a good boy. Now get ready to go."

This same issue came up on the SF thread with regards to men not wanting to admit early on in marriage how important ENs of SF and PA are just like women don't want to admit that FS is an issue with them. We are taught that it sounds shallow.

Wouldn't it be great if O&H were easy???

Just thinking... how do you think he would respond if you told him this is how you WOULD like him to respond??

Boring personal story coming....

About 5 years ago Flick and I were milking and there were a lot of new heifers that season to be trained in the art of standing still in the shed so we could cup them... heifers are fairly nervous and kick a fair bit.

One day we were having a heated conversation and Flick left the shed to get something from out back. While he was gone I got booted in the belly. When he came back into the shed I was red face, gasping, tears streaming out of my eyes...

He said "NOW WHAT HAVE I DONE!"

Once I got my wind back I was able to tell him that I had been booted etc, but it got me thinking of how I would have liked him to respond, as the other times I had got kicked he had said things like "don't get in their way" or "you should be able to see it coming"

So I said to him during a quiet non milking time that my preferred response to being whomped by a cow is a caring 'are you alright" sort of thing. I didn't need to know I was stupid for getting in their way etc, I had plenty of bruises to get that lesson well sunk in.

A while later we were in the shed and I got kicked, chin that time. I looked at him and saw a bunch of facial expressions... anger, rolling eyes, jaw clenching... then he nicely asked if I was ok. I replied I was (once I stopped swearing at the cow) and later on remembered to thank him for listening to me and doing as I had requested.

Do you think Mr J would be open to something like this?

lil...

ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch !!!!!!!!!

And, you spoil sport! I wanted to wallow in resentment a little longer, and you want me to be O&H! Yea SURE it's given me a good result in the past... yeah SURE he's actually been appreciative to have specific instructions on how to please me...


If I tell him that, and he DOESN'T give me an hour's worth of talking followed by a massage and SF, what do I win? Some B&J Creme Brulee?

(It IS a diet food ya know, b/c it's cold, and so it burns calories to warm it up in your tummy.)

(I bet it also would feel good on bruises, like from being kicked by a cow.)