Another way of phrasing it is this:

Not meeting your spouse's Intimate EN's is to travel on the Road to Disaster. It doesn't excuse an A on their part and it doesn't justify anything. But what you're doing is unlatching a gate in the marital fence.

By not taking care of business, you're increasing the vulnerability of your M, and the vulnerability of an otherwise good person to temptation.

Would that I could turn back the clock. Man oh man, I would have spent less time at work, and done the dishes and helped out around the house just a little bit more. These were such small steps that I could have taken to A-Proof our M. I will forever beat myself over my head for my stupidity.

I'm not excusing her -- not at all. But I do recognize my mistakes in this whole mess. And these mistakes will never be repeated.

.....No, not even close.....I can guarantee it.....and Dr. H would even agree with this one....Infidelity is the WORST thing you could ever do to your spouse....

I've witnessed M's where a spouse will treat the other terribly by using anger, defensiveness, ignoring tactics, avoidance, blame shifting, etc.

It's such a horrible form of passive-aggressive, emotional abuse. I don't like to use the codependent word, but that's what the abused spouse is....codependent.

I'm not in your head, so maybe you would put up with it everyday. But I can guarantee you, you still would be on the betrayed side of the infidelity equation. (Ooops, I just re-read your post and you said you did put up with both. I am writing this oops sentence after what I had written below. By any chance, did you endure both by the same partner? Or was it different partners? If you don't mind me asking..)

There isn't one of these M's that I've observed (and some of them are M of 40 + years), that A didn't eventually happen. For most of the M's, it was the avoidant spouse who was wayward first.


People that have to keep an emotionally deep relationship like M on a "surface" level have an impoverished view of intimacy. I think it's that "impoverished" view that allows a wayward A fantasy too.

not2fun,
I didn't mean to offend you, because I am not equating anything with having been cheated on by a spouse. I agree with Dr. Harley that it is worse than physical abuse, because it doesn't just involve two people. And it is a form of physical abuse.

The point I am trying to make is that SF is not just an emotional need; when you take the vows of marriage, you take on a obligation to make some effort in all areas. The weaker the sexual relationship, the weaker the marriage, no matter how well everyone is doing at domestic support, looking attractive, making money, conversation, etc. At some point, the infrequency and/or lack of enthusiasm degrades the marriage to a financial arrangement between roommates, and seldom is it by mutual agreement.

Even under the best of circumstances, with no LBs, and all other ENs being fully met, one spouse is being cheated. The cheating spouse doesn't care; they have a mindset of entitlement that places what they want ahead of anyone else and ahead of the marriage. As stated above, what they think they want is only what they see on the surface, because they can't ever know what they are missing. By denying the sexuality of their spouse, they deny their own sexuality, and make themselves less of a man or woman.

He might agree to that. Then again, he might not.

But is it really true that infidelity is the worst thing?
I mean, getting an STD or terminal illness from the cheating aside, at least with the infidelity a BS that knows about the A can look directly at the WS and understand that it is the WS that is broken.


Whereas the spouse who tolerates continous non-validation by a partner who refuses to acknowledge the need for intimacy, as well as deliberate witholding of love, affection, and/or SF is way more likely to place blame on him or herself for the way they are being treated. As that happens, such spouses often try harder, only to be "shut out" by the non-validating spouse. And in trying harder, it can (and often) reinforces the behaviors of the non-validating spouse.

****continuous being the norm for the witholding spouse's behavior

While a BS dealing with A loses the ideal of the M, feels the betrayal, has to cope with the grief and pain, and suffers a hit to self-esteem, a spouse with a non-validating partner often eventually loses "self" and can't see that it's their partner that needs repairing. Or it can take a long time to finally figure it out.

There's potential for more damage to the psyche of a spouse living with continuous non-validation.


When a person deals with a physical trauma, he or she can acknowledge that it came from outside of "self". With an emotional trauma, it's more difficult to acknowledge it, because the wounds aren't right there to be seen.

If we think about MB guidelines in handling an A, Plan A is short and sweet. If it's too long, the BS is at risk for more emotional harm and it encourages the WS more in cake eating behavior. It's short Plan A, then on to Plan B, S or D.

Just because a spouse is taking *it* elsewhere, whether *it's* emotional, sexual or both, doesn't make it any more damaging than *it* being deliberately with held. In both situations, it's still being refused. It is a betrayal of the vows.

Only difference is that the cheating can be "seen" for what it is and usually motivates the betrayed toward action and acknowledgement. Whereas when intimacy (not just sexual) is refused without A, the betrayed wonders what more he or she can/must do to elicit a different, desired response from the witholding partner.


I have a feeling that Dr Harley has counseled couples where there is some type of inability for true intimacy by one or both spouses. I'm sure he's suggested D in those situations because the EN's won't ever be met. He doesn't recommend sacrifice in M... If there's any type of betrayal to the vows, then the M and "betraying" spouse/s need repair.


I guess this reply is a t/j of Mel's original post. I'm almost certain that Dr Harley's letter was addressing couples where both spouses are capable of a truly intimate M. sorry for the t/j.

Not2fun,

Please don't think I'm saying the intense pain you've experienced from the betrayal of the A is anything less than what it is. It is a horrible thing to have experienced. I'm sorry you've gone through it.

I guess for me, as I processed through my betrayal, I realized that an A is a deliberate refusal by the WS to fully give the BS what is rightfully hers/his to receive from a spouse.

Because I had dealt with both, it dawned on me that if my spouse could deliberately withold love/affection, then he would also be more than capable of taking *it* somewhere else. The two seemed connected because there is just something so fundamentally wrong with a partner who can deliberately, with no justifiable reason, withold what rightfully belongs to be given to his/her spouse in the M.


I want to share this with you so you can understand POV in my posts.

Before the affair, I did....so did he...


Nope, you can't guarentee that, only *I* can do that for myself, the he77 that I went through pre-A, was NO WHERE CLOSE to the horror of those moments when I found out and the months that would follow....the only event that comes close to that measurement, would be the moment my DD came forward with her being sexually abused, and the year that followed.

I will repeat again, I would endure the pain of my H not meeting my needs both intentionally and unintentionally over and over if it could undo his infidelity....

Don't mind at all....My H is my first and only H.....

Look, really this wasn't about what is worse, who's had it worse....this was the second time this has been said on this thread. I see it people one 101 say this quite often, that unmeet EN'S whether its unintentional or not, is like cheating or say it is cheating. It's not.....and UNLESS you have walked that road, one really can't say. I do know, however, for those of us who have been there, would say its not.....

I saw the other responses, and I'll respond tomorrow, but hopefully by then the thread will get back to it intended purpose....sorry for the T/J...

not2fun

This statement is a little like, "Geez, if I were smarter, I wouldn't have been so dumb." You can't undo his infidelity, no matter what.

A better question is, "Does the pain of spouse#1 not meeting the ENs of spouse#2 equate with spouse#1 having an A?"

Having an A is, by definition, not meeting the ENs of the other spouse. That is, the BS has an EN (not a physical need) that WS refrain from having an intimate relationship with another person. So, therefore, an A is really all about one spouse failing to meet the ENs of the other spouse.

And, to go a little further, if one spouse's ENs aren't getting met, then the M suffers, which is actually hurtful to the other spouse. The other spouse is entitled to be treated like a reasoning, responsible adult--which means the other spouse needs duties and responsibilities to have a rich, fulfilling life.

here

Nope, Dr. H is VERY clear on his and MB's position when it comes to infidelity...It is the WORST offense.....and no where have I ever seen him say that a spouse NOT meeting the other's EN's the same as cheating or even in the same league. Nor, have I seen him say that not meeting EN'S, even deliberately, is a betrayal of vows......however, he has stated repeatedly infidelity being the worst offense in a marriage....

not2fun

But the word cheating doesn't have to always refer to infidelity.

By not meeting each other's needs you are cheating each other out of the marriage you could have. Of course this is a low level chronic pain. I think above when it was suggested it was on the continuum is because this is the beginning of the selfish and harmful behaviours that lead to an affair. They are similar in effect though very different in intensity.

Why fight? I imagine being a BS is worse than "merely" being neglected. That in no way means that being neglected isn't awful, painful, terrible, and soul destroying. Just means it is less of those things than being a BS. No need to argue. They are both horribly negative experiences.

It is like arguing which is worse, a stroke or multiple compound fractures? Does anyone really want either of them?

Is it a direct abandonment of the vows that were understood when the marriage/relationship started for someone to deny the other access to the emotional/physical realm within themselves?

Yes.

Is it a form of gaslighting and over time will it cause damage to the betrayed or abandoned?

Yes.

Is it as painful or devestating emotionally as a physical affair?

No.

Much of the pain is what we are willing to do, say, swear by as to the importance of the betrayed. We publicly and before God,(hopefully in our hearts anyway), swear that we will love and care for our spouse above and beyond the understanding of anyone, or anything else in this world.

We no longer have the only keys to our hearts, self-image, or emotional stability. We have given ourselves and those things over to the care of another and become one with them. One flesh, as honestly as we can percieve at the time we do it. We don't believe we are perfect but we expect to grow thru our imperfections together and love each other as a whole. What we say and do, publicly and privatly, carries with us the other person also.

The rejection we feel when ENs are ignored is very real and beacuse we are abusing our partner, we are by contract abusing ourselves. Many believe that as long as they are not physically having an affair that they not guilty of anything when they neglect the other half of themselves. They have lost sight of that imperfect person they attached themselves to and miss the boat on what marriage is supposed to be in the first place, a commitment to God to take care of another imperfect person,(like themselves), for Him. There is a reason its till death do you part, because its never going to be perfect.

When someone gaslights, and you don't have to be having an affair to do this, another and avoids taking care of the other partner it is cruel and destructive, causes much pain and can destroy them over time. Many affairs start because of this behavior. Over time it can cause such a rift between ppl that they don't even recognize each others needs and only see their own. Its many times worse than if they stayed single and they long for the days when they only had to care for themselves.

This is why Plan A can and should be only carried on for a specific time and followed with plan B. Its to protect the innocent party so they don't lose themselves in the process. Its never supposed to be marriage at any cost. That goes outside of Gods intentions for any of us and he doesn't want us to be abused, even if we have somehow been duped into believing its "All our fault". We will make mistakes thats guaranteed in our human existance but as we forgive ourselves and seek counsel, we should be expecting our partner to do the same.


So when we expose an affair, or even poor treatment by another spouse, we find out if the other partner is willing to or mentally/emotionally able to come back to earth and deal with reality. We find out what they are made of and if they truly will before everyone commit themselves to the care of the other. It doesn't matter that they didn't know what they were getting into when they got married and/or how much they and their partner would change. They missed it, its about sharing that experience, not ultimatly controlling it to their own selfish desires. The desires were supposed to be shared and change together. The tools MB uses to keep us connected take work, and nobody I ever have known that has a happy marriage ever said it was easy or didn't take work. Niether have they said there weren't times of pain and growth.

When someone has a physical affair they cross a line that is invisable but very real emotionally. They have forsaken you. They are planning to go public maybe but in the realm of love they have allready done it. The abandonment has now taken on a reality that is so painful that it can only be healed by God or a spouse who will humble themselves enough to learn how to love again the way He intended. There is a void unspeakable many times and your life becomes empty and if the marriage doe not get help the BS is left to fend for themselves again after having much of their selfworth tossed in the trash. Such is the wisdom of plan B to separate your heart from such selfish behavior on the part of the WS.

I liken the feeling to how WIlliam wallace acted in braveheart when he found out he was betrayed by Robert the Bruce. You are emptied and can't seem to breathe or catch your breath. All the fight goes out of you and you are now weak and suseptable to any attacks the atmosphere has for you.

The exposure is an attempt to bring them back to reality in hope that they have what it takes to humble themselves and admit their selfish mistakes. Also what led up to them and learn how to correct them.


My late wife had alcohol issues, occasional drug issues, BPD issues and would not seek help professionally. She blamedme forears and after ten years of what you could call a Plan A I was worn down pretty thin. It took everything I had to keep from falling into a void that would destroy us all as she never got to a place where she would be honest with herself so I could trust her completly with my heart. There was a 5 year period when she was sober and had not pulled a dissapearing act when I was starting to believe we would recover but whenever she would pull a houdini it destroyed my hope, but not me completly.

When she finnally after hiding a herion addiction from me for two years. (I new something was up but didn't recognize it because it wasn't like alcohol), told me she was leaving me for another man, in my weakened state I finnally crumbled. That was 7 years ago and I still haven't completly recovered.

I would trade the Plan A i was living in with all the pain and hope for our recovery for her leaving any day. Because I fell apart we all did. The pain is the most.

When she was a part time wayward she would allways come back and straighten herself out and at least hide her behavior from us. When the drugs took her mind and she decided to leave me/us it was when she was lost to us and hope was gone also. Her willingness to abandon us publicly for a bussinessman who also drank and was into coke was the straw. She openly stated she was thru and that she no longer wanted to be with us. The children were grown and he had a house and made good money. My wife no longer had ultimate control over the children and could not hide her actions from them and she knew doing drugs was something I didn't respect or agree with so she left to live a fantasy. KNowing that she was hurting herself and wrong in her actions did not make the pain and loss any better.


I shared some of my story but the point I was tring to make is that even if things are very bad in a marriage, and mine had a lot of issues, when someone leaves you for someone else or has sex with someone else it is much more painful than when they are just hurting you with IB and DJs. In my life it has been my experiance anyway

Sorted,

Thanks for sharing your story. It is very, very sad.

But may I ask, why *didn't* you expect from your wife what she ultimately did? Her behaviors/attitudes indicated all along that she was more than capable of it. Her life was about escaping to fantasy to avoid reality.

How was it, that you held out so much hope for a better outcome? Even though she had been there in her physical presence, emotionally she wasn't there. She was there, but she was already gone.

Do you ever feel that if you had been able to see her behavior for what it was, that you wouldn't have been as shocked and hurt by the infidelity aspects?

I had left her after two years of her behavior realizing that I was an enabler. It was tough to do but once I saw it it was the only way to save myself. I was gone for two 1/2 years.

After 6 months she stopped drinking. For the next two years she insisted that she was changed, that her going back to church was what she needed and that she had a promise from God that I would return. She would not go to AA or get any counsel but she did change.

I was not without my own issues of self-esteem but it didn't stop me from seeing that she wanted to live a good life and that with proper counsel we could build something together. It was not hard to love who she wanted to be. It was immpossible for us to move forward without help. I beleived that she would seek it if in time she would admit she needed it. I thought she would eventually stop hiding her outrageous behavior by saying "its just a weakness" and get help to heal. The God she talked about who freed her also made doctors and other weak human beings who humble themselves to learn. If she would only seek the deeper help waiting for her. I thought,hoped, she would.

So when she had stopped drinking, and when we had moved closer to her church, after she had admitted she had behaved like an idiot, when for two years she waited,prayed, and convinced me we could have a future. I came back.

Over the next ten years because she still would sidestep the issues that caused her and I the most trouble, and because I too became more used to waiting and lower in spirit. We eventually eneded up right back where she started, and I ended.

By the time she left I was sure that she was never going to leave. I was so accustomed to her messing up and coming back over he years that to meit was a matter of time before she hit rock bottom and got help.

The heroin is a different animal. It set her free from any inhibitions that she previously held back. She became heartless and selfish all the time and justified it constantly. Any shame she was carrying before was obliterated and the combination of the guilt she allways had carried from childhood along with this new failure was to much for her to bare. We did not have the money to put her in a mental hospital and she rejected all the programs except the methadone one which she only took for the medication.

The time she had when we were first back together when I saw hope for us when I encouraged her to get counsel had passed. She could counsel anybody and did that a lot. She wouldn't take any for herself. She was an educated women when it came to the grace of God but I guess that eventualy she "HAd a form of Godliness but denied the power thereof"

I, being the type of guy who felt responsible for everything and especially for our children, who wondered where Mom went, stayed and loved the unlovely. Paid the rent, was a voice of reason to the children, and let them know that was not the heart of he Mom who loved them many times. My wife was not allways that person she became, the sickness progressed over time. My children understand that now but would have perished if I hadn't stayed the last ten years.

I was not shocked that she did what she did. I was not healthy by staying with her or allowing myself to be treated like I was. My goal now is to take care of myself and just be happy with what life has to offer me. That won't be hard life allways has a lot to offer. I am soul-searching and working with a great counsellor. Being here helps to see that I was right about getting help a long time ago and that there was a reason for my hope. The sad part is that if I had insisted on being treated right it might have helped her. As a man I held my ground alone for many years. I wish I had come here for help long ago. Most of what is taught here my wife would agree with. She did her own plan A based on what God told her to get me back. Go figure, even her pastor had doubts I would return.

Staying and watching her deteriorate over time did not lessen the hope that I had embraced years ago as something I held onto. This is misunderstood by many. We think we are OK living with a spouse that the relationship has turned sour and tell ourselves we would be better off without them sometimes but when they leave, or pass away, we find out how painful the loss is. I guess that was the shock

Again the wisdom of not having marriage at any cost, or staying in plan A for too long.

But hey Im sorry for the T/J I was adresseing the issue that someone stated about what was more painful. Being treated like dirt or being physically cheated on or abandoned.

My vote is cheated on/abandoned because before that there is allways hope and the reality of sexual bonding to another, whether some fantasy wild outrageous act of rebellion or the seeking of comfort with someone else,(which in some cases might be the same thing just confused), tears you up.

I know this has nothing to do with SF, but I am so sorry SSO. I never, NEVER want my H to go through this type of pain. There have been tims recently when I have chafed at the changes that medications and therapy have made in me (I miss some of those manias sometimes). But stories like yours remind me of what I will become and do to those I love if I don't stay the course.

Forgive me for saying this Lurioosi but I can't see you ever hurting your H like that. You go to a Doctor and are willing to look into yourself. Your posts are insightful. You are connected to others. The humility you show is inspiring. You are honest about what you feel. Its obvious to me that in your mind its not all about you and your accountable to others.

Thx for your kind words and your wisdom here on these threads. God has blessed us all with this place.

How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage?

Well, apparently, a man has to ask for it most of the time, or his wife will forget. The question for the ladies (and men) is, what's the best way to ask?

The best way to ask me is to be straight about it, and tag it on to the end of a LOT of non-sexual attention.

How should a man ask.....

Sincerely. Yeah, I know that sounds vague. But sincerity goes a long way.

Of course, if I know that SF is a top need for my H, I think I would try to find a way NOT to forget. Cause I sure wouldn't want him to "forget" to talk to me or spend time with the family or go to work.