Let me put in a pre-weekend plug and bump for you, Soolee, so some more people have time to read.

I had only read HNHN, found this MB site in 2007, lurked a while, then joined. I have read all the online material, saved it, read it again. I thought I already understood the Love Busters.

But this book is not just stretching what was already in HNHN. It is an in-depth analysis of how the LBs come into play, the differences between them, and how they work together, with lots of examples of all kinds of attitudes.

I bought the newest edition, and got free shipping by ordering a second book. I had planned to donate this one to our church library, and give FILSIL to a young engaged couple (even if it is anonymously, to avoid parental offense). But I am ordering another copy of this for the church, and maybe another copy of FILSIL.

I'm still waiting for a copy I ordered, so I haven't read all of chapter 2 yet (just what was available online). Hopefully it will arrive early next week. But I am very much enjoying reading the posts!

Morning everybody!

I hope everyone was able to fit some reading in this week. I found Chapter 3 Selfish Demands quite interesting and have been looking forward to incorporating it into the discussion.

Dr. Harley defines this love buster like this:

Selfish Demands
Commanding your spouse to do things that would benefit you at your spouse's expense, with implied threat of punishment if refused.

I think the key is to start listening to ourselves and how we converse with our spouses, being mindful of our tone and our choice of words. Dr. H states that demands are a very thoughtless way to solve problems, and because in marriage we can often get away with making demands, we run the risk of making it a habit. He states that if this is allowed to 'run amok' it can destroy our ability to solve even simple problems in the relationship.

This is the chapter that POJA is introduced. One thing that has resonated with me a lot with learning about POJA is that it is there to help both the Giver and the Taker. It balances things out and does not allow one to take advantage or the other to be walked on. As Dr. H states: A fair solution to any marital problem must take both of you into account.

What is more...POJA is designed to give us opportunities to deposit love units. It shows our spouse that we care how they feel and respect their opinion.

Any thoughts?

Jayne...did your copy come yet?

I posted the above about that part of Chapter 1 that states you are more likelyt to hate your spouse than anyone else Soolee. It stood out for me more than the rest. I think we've managed to maintain positive balances for each other only because we have always prioritised UA time which has thankfully balanced out the units we've taken from each other by love busting. My husband has said he will read this book with me and he read the Introduction and then Chapter 1 as well the other day and I believe he found it interesting. He was a bit reluctant after starting to read Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus years ago on my request and finding it too preachy to continue. I think he was pleasantly surprised at how sensible this book is.

I have already read Chapters 3 and 4 so look forwards to hearing other's thoughts on them and hopefully my hubby will read them too soon.

I like the way Dr. Harley doesn't just talk in generalities. He analyzes the differences between a thoughtful request and a selfish demand, so we can analyze for ourselves what we are actually hearing, and whether what we are asking is really a demand disguised as a request.

Thoughtful requests must take into consideration the feelings of your spouse. You must be willing to withdraw temporarily, if the answer is, "No".

Even if what you are asking for is reasonable, if you are using abusive or controlling tactics, it becomes selfish demand.

Don't ask for something when you are frustrated or peeved, because your Taker is in charge. Cool off before asking.

If you cannot make the request without asking how your spouse would feel about doing it, then you are prone to be demanding. Stop and think about how you are phrasing your "requests".

We talk a lot on this board about Boundaries. What's the difference between drawing a Boundary and making a selfish demand?

I mean, I know that a healthy boundary is phrased in terms of "I feel... when you..." and "I am going to leave until this stops" and doesn't directly demand change of the other person... but it does in effect demand change of the other person.

I see where getting what I want really is a losing process long term. I have gotten to the point of not asking for much of anything. My W usually points out the down side of my ideas and requests.


As for POJA, it has to be her idea if it is going to work smoothly. Sometimes I just say this is the way it is going to be or I will do something without her. For me it isn�t about me getting my way, it is avoiding my W�s �nothing I want works for her.� I have found the more I do for my W, the more she wants things her way. I think we teach other people what we will tolerate.

Maybe I just suck at asking for and getting what I think is reasonable. My W thinks she is the anti-codependency expert.

I posted this on another threas�
I have been reading "Love Busters" and came to page 95 "Generosity Can Lead to Angry Outbursts" that was difficult emotionally to read. In my case my Generosity has lead to me through conflict, to the state of withdrawing, and now not asking for much from the R, while not making my wishes known or complaining because it didn�t work in the first place.

The topic for me was the "Giver" vs. the "Taker" and the "Giver" not negoating what he or she needs and constantly or frequently "Giving" and getting little in return often leads to resentments (me I avoid the anger part because it isn't my style).

The solution is for the "Giver" to quit giving so often or negotiate a better deal so as to not get in a negative mindset.

A friend of mine asked me:
But there are more forms of connectedness than just sex. There is spiritual, mental and emotional connections. How would you rate these areas of connectedness? To me, these areas are as critical as physical connection... and often fuel your level of (dis)satisfaction WITH physical connection.

Taken an inventory of all these things (and be as HONEST as you can with yourself). Put it all down on a sheet of paper. Example. My wants are _______. My needs are ______. My non-negotiable are ______. On a scale of 0 - 10 (zero being highly unsatisfied, 10 being highly satisfied), rate each one in your current life.

What are your partner's wants and needs? How well are they being met? Do you have any idea?

I think it is very important to know these things about yourself first... if not, how could you even possibly address an issue?
end



In another book it said people that typically get little of what they want really don�t know what they would really like because something just a little better than what they have now seems like the only reasonable thing to wish for and actually receive. It is similar to the starving person wishing for just bread and something, anything to drink.

Right now I don�t think my W has much to give so I don�t ask to avoid another �chicken or the egg� situation. When I do ask it becomes a blame game, if you would XYZ, or she can�t ABC session.

How does a person (me) work with someone that usually sees the down side (her) and gets stuck there?

Lou

OG, my husband would likely say a lot of what you've said, that nothing he wants works for me, that he can't get what HE thinks is reasonable.

What makes you (or my H) the God of all that is Reasonable? Do you see how judging reasonableness is a huge part of the problem? How it dismisses her (and my) POV as 'unreasonable'?

The solution is pretty simple. Stop judging. Start considering every request to be reasonable, to someone, even if that someone is not YOU. Step outside of yourself for a moment and show some compassion and understanding for someone else's concerns.

I think it's important in building a strong marriage (and as long as there's no real sign that someone is on their way out) to take some time to develop good habits in the marriage. First being to lose the love busters. Your wife may be a tad problematic and adversarial. Some people are naturally like that. I don't know why, really. Point is that you aren't happy. You're giving in. POJA is designed to give a healthy balance to the relationship so that the Giver isn't stuck giving all the time and the Taker isn't the one taking all the time.

Every time you give in when you aren't enthusiastic, you're allowing your Giver to dictate your marriage. You have a responsiblity to speak up and tell her "I'm not happy with that, and we need to table that until we can come to an agreement we're both happy with. Let's sit down tonight after supper and discuss it."

Every time you shrug and let her have her way, you're a little bit more unhappy, and that isn't fair to you. If you wanted to split hairs, it isn't fair to her either because it allows (and maybe even forces) her Taker to direct the marriage.

Also, if you feel apathetic about something, or if she has more knowledge about something, I think it's okay to allow that person to make the decision, but the thing is...you need to make sure that even relinquishing that decision is a decision you make together. Does that make sense?

I think discouraging unilateral decision making is part of the learning process when it comes to POJA. You may need to sit down with your wife and tell her that any future decisions that will affect you or the marriage, you would like to make together, and the solution needs to be agreeable to both of you, or it should be tabled. And when you find that she is still doing the unilateral decision making, I would remind her that she did something you didn't want her to do. I might even go so far as to cancel whatever it is that was done, if possible. (But hey - I'm not an expert. Remember that.)

When she sees the downside, I would tell her something like, "I can see we won't be able to make a joint decision right now. Let's revisit this tomorrow night. Maybe we can brainstorm separately, and do any research about it before then, and then brainstorm together tomorrow. We can write ideas down between now and then and talk about it." You may need to be the chairperson, Lou, for a while - the one showing her how POJA is done - respectfully of course - not in a condescending way."

Decisions don't need to be settled in one sitting. You can set the stage and do it over the course of a few days if need be.

OG, I've read other posters here quoting from Dr. Harley stating that, as long as one spouse or the other is in a "what's in it for ME" mode, resistance to change is great.

It's really a mindshift. And it's not one you wind up making overnight. And as the book states, it's CERTAINLY not one you can make while still learning AND while frustrated and peeved about something, which leaves your Taker temporarily in charge.

I'm way ahead of my husband on MB reading and I'm still having major problems with the thinking shift at times.

The shift is this: What's in it for ME, is really a new, strong, fulfilling and romantic relationship. If both have that as their goal, then anything along the way is not a "loss", is it?

Soolee, did you miss this?


I don't think the unilateral decision-making is HER problem, it's HIS. He's essentially said, "my way or the highway, babe..."

This is a problem for a lot of people. They think that considering another person's POV is the same as 'giving in', when it should be considered as caring.

Reading about SDs in this book confirmed for me that I'm not making SDs. I don't say, "Do it my way or beat it." I say, "I want you to have what you want, here are my concerns, I'd like them addressed." And when they are discarded as 'unreasonable' or even worse--IMPOSSIBLE--I respond accordingly.

My H and I had a discussion about impossible requests yesterday. He said that some things are impossible to accommodate. I said, "Like what? Name one thing other than height that is impossible to change to accommodate a request." lol. He gave me the 'you are impossible to talk to' look and changed the subject.

Sometimes I just say this is the way it is going to be or I will do something without her.

Yes, you raise a good point here. This is what POJA is designed to eliminate. It's wrong to go ahead and do something just because a spouse is waffling. That's where tabling the idea comes into play and negotiation begins.

Making a decision just because you're frustrated with someone's indecisiveness is not POJA.

I guess I should confess that this has happened in our house too, Lou. He and I have probably both gone ahead and made decisions because the other person couldn't make a good enough arguement or seemed apathetic. The key (I believe) is to even take that apathy and indecisiveness into account and ask if that person would like you to go ahead and make the decision. I would, however, make sure they understand that by not working with you on a POJA over the issue, there lies a chance that the final decision won't sit well.

My H and I had a discussion about impossible requests yesterday. He said that some things are impossible to accommodate. I said, "Like what? Name one thing other than height that is impossible to change to accommodate a request." lol. He gave me the 'you are impossible to talk to' look and changed the subject.

In our house it's often a money issue.

So, I need to be more of a door mat? I think I consider her POV too much and now my Giver has the R in a negative balance.

Soolee, I agree with what you posted.


I used to think half of a pie was worth more than no pie at all so I went along with many of my W�s ideas and wishes. I thought doing so would make her happy and that she would do the same for me. What usually happened is similar to how a ratchet wench operates (auto mechanic reference here) one direction it grips and turns the nut and the handle move in the other direction free wheels. IOW the direction of movement/work is in one direction. What I want to avoid is that one way drift.

On another forum, several women said they would lose respect for a man if he let her walk all over him. I am not talking about the H being in a dictator role. What I am saying sometimes a H will do things hoping things work out for the betterment of the M and the situation gets to the point that doing things for a spouse gets the R some place the �Giver� sees as somewhat one sided.

Sometimes doing more to help the R becomes draining. In many ways I can relate to "holdingontoit" when I read his thread.


I know that the �What�s in it for me� is a poor choice to make. In the book �No More Mr. Nice Guy� is a term �un written contract� which means about the same as I will do this for her and then she will do something I want, without actually talking and agreeing on the item in question, just is not going to work.

Mostly what I am talking about is we agree on something then some bump in the road comes along and my W quits doing what we agreed on. The last 3 (recently) activities we talked over that I was willing to do and actually hoped would be something similar to RC and shared interests, she quit when things got a �little� difficult. One time she didn�t want to drive to a commitment because it was raining. After this happening on 2 different activities, I decided I wasn�t going to quit an activity because I had to get a little wet, or something had to be learned.

To use a card metaphor, if we were married and playing strip poker, if she had her shoes and socks off the card game would be over. Call that DJ or whatever term is appropriate, but I see it as quitting when her comfort level is reached and her comfort level is way lower than mine and way lower than most people�s if I read people correctly.

So the point isn�t �Do it my way� it is I am not quitting something just because there is a small bump in the road or I have to learn something I didn�t know before I started an activity. My idea of a pleasurable activity is more than petting the cat while watching a chick flick on TV and sitting in the air conditioned or heated comfort of home for 95% of my life. One Example, no joint vacation in 20 yrs.

But back to the book if you wish.

Lou

Lou - I can really relate to you on having an indecisive spouse. Many a project remains undone around our house because of this, and it is frustrating and painful to look at. For this reason alone, it serves people better to develop POJA skills. This is what marriage is - negotiating, etc. POJA is what separates us from the cavemen. Lou...we can do this.

Hang in there.

A money issue that is IMPOSSIBLE to accommodate? How is that?

Options I can see to accommodate any money issue:

1. make more money
2. spend less money

Just an example, we know a couple where the W is a big spender. Is it impossible for her to have the money she wants to spend? Absolutely not. She can get a job to support her spending habit, they can amend their household budget to buy cheaper cars to support her shoe habit, or she can do without. When things seem impossible, it's usually because *someone* doesn't want to change.

So, I need to be more of a door mat?

No. POJA protects both mindsets - the Giver and the Taker. Gives the marriage balance. POJA demonstrates to EACH OTHER that you care about each other's feelings and opinions. Deposits love units too by doing that.

Lou...I haven't found anything yet that says a particular POJA can't be revisited when someone's comfort level is challenged. I could be wrong, but things do pop up that can change the course of a decision. Not unheard of.

Is it chronic? Do you feel it's abnormal?