I think stating that it's going to be your way or she's out makes you a BULLY, not a doormat.

CWMI - lol - Dang...you're good at this.

So,Lou...how do your POJA attempts usually start?

I went back and noticed that Retread uses the word 'reasonable' to describe requests as well.

Is this a guy thing?

Do you gals judge requests as reasonable or unreasonable in your M? A discussion in mine pertaining to this has to do with meeting the need for DS. Do I think my H has an unreasonable need for DS? Absolutely, FOR ME. I would never need that much. I can be perfectly happy with a much, much messier home...for me, needing a spotless home while having four children is unreasonable.

But do I think it is unreasonable for HIM? Heck no. He has a much greater need in this area than I do. I recognize that. And I ACCOMMODATE that. I put in way more effort than I personally find reasonable, because I know how important it is to him.

Guys, you might find your lives much nicer if you respect that your W reasons differently than you, and if you would recognize where she thinks differently but DOES anyway to accommodate you.

An unreasonable request is one which the other party cannot deliver at all, or which they cannot deliver without making an extraordinary effort, sacrificing other things which are important to them, or which they find unpleasant.

When they say, "No, I can't do that.", the thoughtful requester will respectfully drop the subject, or negotiate something which does not require a sacrifice from their spouse.

Examples of unreasonable requests:

* Requesting $40,000 a year tuition for Darling Daughter to attend an expensive private college, which is no better than the state university in your home town, when the family income is only $80,000 before taxes.

* Requesting that Dear Husband work a second job to earn that $40,000, which means he has to give up all evenings and weekends with the family.

* Requesting that Dear Wife take a job, but still get all the children off to school, wash all the clothes, dishes, and make supper, so you can buy the bigger house that she doesn't really want.

* Requesting that Dear Wife give up her monthly Garden Club membership, when you weren't planning to go out with her that night, anyway.

On the other hand, just because someone doesn't want to meet a request does not mean it is unreasonable. It just means they don't want to meet it. For example, a wife is home all day, but the husband has to come home from work, fix supper, do all the dishes, wash the supper dishes, wash clothes, and put the children to bed. His request for his wife to do a little housework before he gets home is not unreasonable.

Ok, Retread... how about this one...

is it an unreasonable request to ask my H to implement **and actually follow through with** some sort of boundaries with consequences for violating said boundaries in regards to the behaviours of his DD during her summer home from college in order to protect my DD with whom his DD has a history of being a bully and abusive? He cannot deliver this without an extraordinary effort and in fact has not been able to deliver this the last THREE times he's agreed to it, it causes him extreme discomfort and displeasure due to his enmeshment with his DD, and apparently a great deal of sacrifice of *something* since he has failed to follow through as I said, the last THREE times he's made said agreement.

If I set a boundary that abusive and bullying behaviour in my home is met with a request for his DD to leave until she can apologize and refrain from said behaviour, am I exhibiting a healthy boundary, or making a selfish demand?

I think a flat-out NO to any of those requests without negotiating a way to make them work is unreasonable.

Put the end in mind.

1. DD wants to attend uber-expensive private school. DD and both folks can seek out and apply for scholarships, grants, loans, FIND a way to make it happen before declaring that it can't.

2. What is the end result of DW taking a job? Extra income? Weigh that against the cost of hiring someone to do that which she will not be able to do because she will not be home. If the numbers don't add up, negotiate another way to make it work. Part-time, work from home, freelance, etc. Weigh how much you will all be away from home against how much enjoyment you can get out of the new home. If everyone has to be gone earning money, is it worth it?

3. I don't even understand the Garden Club thing. What is the end result wanted? Not spend the money? Spending the time at home? Avoiding cute guy who just joined?

What is the problem with meeting a request through extraordinary effort? Are you saying we should only meet requests when they're easy??? nononono.

TAC,
It is not extraordinary for an adult to not be abusive and bullying to a child, especially his own daughter. If it requires extraordinary effort on his part to behave in an ordinary and reasonable manner, that only because his abusive behavior is out of the ordinary. So it is not unreasonable for other adults to expect him to straighten up. Anyone who does not want to meet a reasonable request, or honor a reasonable boundary needs to examine their reasons, which probably stem from issues of power, control, and independent behavior.

CWMI,

1. If both parents think it is reasonable to borrow $160,000 for DD to attend a college that is more prestigious but academically inferior to a state college, then I am fine with that. If it is not okay with one of them, then the other one should drop that extreme request and negotiate towards something the is financially possible without great sacrifice by one person.

2. I think we are in agreement here. Many men do expect their wives to work, and do most of the chores, which I think is unreasonable. So do most wives.

3. Apparently my Garden Club example was not clear. It's not about the money, only $50.00 a year. It's not about taking away from UA time or RC time, because I said the husband did not plan to be doing something with his wife that night, anyway. For some men, it is about control, about not wanting to be left take care of the children, about wanting the option to do as they please on any night. His request for her to stop attending, no matter how polite, is a selfish request. To find out, if it is really an SD, just say, "No", and see if it escalates to an outright demand.

An idea, then some degree of stating a goal, some steps on how to get there. Next my W tells me her side and why the goal isn�t something she wants and mostly why she can�t do it.

If it is something she agrees to doing, most likely any bumps in the road along the way cause her to give up. The giving up happens too often for me so I got to the point on not counting on her sticking with something �WE� start.

Her requirements for things going her way and avoiding uncomfortable feelings or situations are much higher than mine, that is unless it is one of her few core interests. We just spent 6 months with one of her core interests and were getting along fairly well so I thought maybe it was my turn to do something she expressed interest. Well she picked out the interest but in a short time bailed. I stuck with the interest and go alone. I invite her to the events about once a month and no pressure from me. Any reluctance on her part spoils my enjoyment so if she went and complained, I would have rather not asked her and might regret going myself. To me there is more to life than talking about cats.

If she wanted a new cat and it was 95f outside, she would look at cats. If it was 80f outside and I said lets take a short walk (15 minuets), just so we could have some RC time, get some exercise together, it would be too hot for her. If it was 55f it would be too cold. Same with anything more than a slight breeze.

I could list more than 10 activities over the last 20 yrs we started to do together that she quit because something was difficult for her (took some effort) or someone in the group said something she didn�t like.


I agree with you that things might change, so work on the POJA again.

What has been the norm is the answer is usually the same and after so many tries I just feel/think I need to depend on myself and not my W, rather than hope something will work when most of the things I have tried haven�t worked for me. Put a dollar in and get back twenty-five cents is what it feels like to me with what I have been doing.

I can see where I have tried so hard at times, now that I look back to what didn�t work, I must have looked needy to my W and acting or looking needy/desperate is a relationship killer. This is also related to my door-mat comment. I want to be fair but I also need some hope that what ever happens it will be for the benefit for/to both of us.


I am not certain what you asked is chronic. If it relates to me being a door mat, I was for a while. My W was acting similar to a spoiled teenager concerning some of her wants and activities or lack of shared activities. She got into �ME(her) first mode and men were mostly pigs shortly after her codependency education program.

I do feel slightly different than what I view as normal to a majority of the people I interact with. I also see most men as less willing to go along with some of the restrictions/conditions my W puts on activities.

In a way I tried a rough version of plan "A" (playing nice guy) and now I am in plan "B" but my plan "B" is to be less reliant on my W and more reliant on me taking care of my needs while trying to be friendly but not wanting or counting on her to provide things I really want.

Sounds like a prime example to drift apart some more and a breeding ground for an EA, but no EA. I read about those for the past 5 years on another forum where the left behind wives post. I read their stories of heart break and sorrows. Not a nice picture and I don�t want to do that to my W.

Lou

Another thought I have about Selfish Demands is how the habit develops. Dr. Harley makes the point that it is a habit, which can be, and must be broken.

I think a lot of people think the only way to ask for something is to demand it. They see their parents and so many adults demanding this or that. When they are little, they learn to cry and pout and stomp their feet. They skip the part about asking nicely, and going straight to demanding.

Why do they do this? Well, babies are born demanding, and have to be taught to ask politely. A lot of them never are taught manners. But the other side of that is that asking politely has to get results, or they have to understand why. Always being rejected when you made a polite request will teach someone to be persistent, then to become demanding. Probably a lot of spouses unlearn their manners after their thoughtful requests are ignored.

My parents did not tolerate demands from children, but they also rewarded polite requests. They didn't just give out money or buy us things. We learned to ask, "HOW could I get a new baseball glove?" And my parents would offer alternatives. I could wait until Christmas, or my birthday. I could get up earlier and feed the chickens in the morning, instead of just in the afternoon, for a dollar a week. Or, I could agree to do a full week's work, 10 hours a day, picking up rocks in the field after plowing, for $3.00 a day - and buy the glove in one week. Whatever deal I struck, I had to stick it out.

I have to agree with what retread said :


" Always being rejected when you made a polite request will teach someone to be persistent, then to become demanding. Probably a lot of spouses unlearn their manners after their thoughtful requests are ignored."


After so many years of being ignored or told I will get to it later. Trash taken out, upkeep on house , etc.

Asking to be home by certain time because we have to be @ xyz at a particular time.

Demands come into play.
Because me asking does not do a bit of good.

I started demanding everything. I do not have time to play the nice game anymore.

I've asked & asked somemore & get ignored.

So the only time I would get results would be when I demanded something be done.

That has only worked for so long. I have to think before I speak now to make sure I am asking not demanding. Very bad habit to get into.

I am trying to break but it is hard when this has been the way of life for 10yrs or more.

My H & I finally read chp 2 tonight.....so I am behind but wanted to post just the same.

He asked me why I thought we weren't keeping on schedule with this and I told him the truth....he is working to much and there is no time and he is very tired when he gets home...all true...he didn't deny it and said nothing.

He is still insisting on poking holes in the MB system....his latest one was an example of what if again.

He used my cousin who is 6ft9" tall and said what if he was married to a woman that was a foot shorter (I told him he is not...his wife is 6ft 3" herself) he said well just the same let's say she was....and one day he says to her "I am not attracted to you as you are a foot shorter to me...so you need to do something about that or I won't be in love with you."

(If you all remember he used the what if a spouse gets really sick one last time..like with MS (My sister had MS by the way))

I said what you all told me here to say....I told him that MB is a behavioral program that deals with things people can change and/or control....behaviors & actions...not things like sickness or if someone is very short genetically.

He wanted to argue it saying I wasn't giving his analogy a chance...I told him that the lady can't control her genetics or do anything to make herself taller by surgery or otherwise so it wouldn't apply to MB prinicipals.

He said he has these questions and he is gonna ask them but not to Steve or anyone else....I told him I wasn't an expert but just a student like himself. He agreed and said he didn't expect me to be able to answer them for him and he didn't need anyone like a counseling session to either.

I told him I needed to have a phone session and needed counseling and I would prefer we do it as a couple but it was up to him....that I was making the appt for next week.

I also explained that he was looking to poke holes in the system here....and that it is a behavior modification program...getting rid of bad habits and behaviors. But I did feel that if a couple who had a wonderful fulfilling marriage like one could have here on MB teachings would stock pile a large bank account balance to weather the "storms/tradiges" of life....BUT let's say a couple hasn't done that and there's nothing in the love bank accounts and sickness like MS hits what usually happens is the spouse who is sick gets deserted by the other spouse who leaves them.

I do feel that if you invest heavily in your marriage and your love bank is very high from yrs and yrs of it being high when sickness hits you will manage to continue to love your spouse and honor your commitment to the marriage. JMO on this.

and it will depend on age also...if say the couple is 25 and it happens well 2yrs of married life is most likely NOT enough to sustain a thing like this as the others needs would not be met and after a few yrs they would look outside of the marriage to get them met.

But maybe say a couple that's been married 20yrs and has a great marriage would still be in love and weather that storm.

Remember we are NOT dealing with sickness like this OR a height issue at my home so as to not confuse anyone reading this. This is all my husbands way of poking holes in everything we read in the book.

I am very down right now...can't sleep...it's nearly 1am and I have to be up 5:45am....our communication is so bad it's scary bad.

I finally told him when he does this it makes me feel like he is looking for reasons to not do the book or the other MB stuff.

I know others here feel you can work 80hr+ a week and have plenty of time for everything but trust me your wrong. My H has pressure at work and putting in long hours plus weekends isn't helping my marriage...it's wrecking it just like it always has.

He's too tired and the last thing he wants to do is come home and read books on his marriage or how he can change his patterns of behavior.

He has also told me he is not in agreement with O&H communication....that there is noway you can have that...cause if you tell your spouse (she's too short cause your really tall) how's that gonna make her feel close to you? it won't he says it won't work and you can't say it nice enough to make it okay to say.

This thinking/reasoning of his is a huge block for us...he says it is why he doesn't talk to me....cause he "reads" into what I am thinking or what my reaction will be so he just never tells me about x y or whatever.

This explains his IB.....he tells himself....she won't react the way I want (meaning she won't agree with me on it) so I won't tell her about it and just go do as I please....he has done this for 20yrs now....it's like a drug...he doesn't want to deal with it or let it go.

Were on Chp 2 and I feel hopeless inside.....after reading how people go into withdrawal to escape the pain I totally understand it.....I am doing my best to not go there but I won't be able to do it forever....I am giving it until fall...if we havent made any progress than I am protecting myself from further hurt....you see when your hopes get up or expectations come and are dashed over and over you can only take that so long.

Goodnight to all that can sleep....

OH MY GOODNESS LOL!

I didn't read this thread up to date before I posted at 1am....it's 6:30am here and I can't believe this LOL!!!

CWMI, your post made me laugh.....even though I feel like crying still.

Gemstone, your husband is just looking for ridiculous situations. If a very tall man married a very short woman, then he was attracted to her, height and all. If he all of a sudden decides to only be attracted to tall women then that could say one of a few things:

1. He was not honest in the first place during the dating stage.
2. He is in an affair/on the verge of an affair and is looking for reasons to justify it.

Someone just doesn't flip a switch and decide they're no longer attracted to someone on a purely physical level like that.

Gemstone, hon, do you remember that quote, "It's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking, than think your way into a new way of acting," something like that? He may not be doing this the way you want, but he is doing this, you are getting closer, not further from, where you want to be. Some of these ideas took trial and error and repetition for me to understand better and better over time, your H may be like this, too. Hang in there!

are you saying he is not "getting" the concepts here is why he acts like this? he insists he does and doesn't require clarification from anyone...not even the guy who wrote the books!

I disagree....I feel even more far away from him....being told that there is noway to ever be open/honest with your spouse is depressing to say the least. It means I can never be sure what he is telling me is the "real truth" or if he is concealing his true thoughts/feelings about everything....that leaves me in a place I can't quite explain...I have no security at all.....I feel we are strangers.

Yes I feel he was being ridiculous about the height issue....I kept saying it's not about something one can't change like height but it's a program to change ones behaviors/habits.....he is STUCK on this approach....I can see why to be honest....if you stick to this approach it will effectively shoot down every MB teaching at the get go....it sure is effective for him. And I did point out that anyone of the marrying age would have already grown as tall as they ever were gonna get so the spouse knew full well that his 4ft 2" W was never gonna be any taller for the rest of her life barring a medical breakthrough or miracle. Then I switch to weight again...and said that was one that could apply....you could marry someone who was say 125LBS but after 20yrs of marriage they are 200LBS and maybe that's just to much for the spouse to feel attracted to physically....and the spouse could do something to change that situation whereas the height one was impossible....he wanted to stick with the height example.

I'm saying he understands what they are saying, but isn't taking these ideas on as his own. Yet.

Gemstone, if he feels this way about O&H communication, it's been going on for years, right? The only difference is that now you are acknowledging that he's like this? Is it an all or nothing flick of the switch, or you had some gut feel that this guy wasn't trustworthy before? Doesn't this new information about your H make some other things make sense now that they didn't before? For me, when I allowed myself to become aware of my H's dishonesty, it was a relief in a way, that I wasn't going crazy, that things really weren't adding up, it wasn't just me. Now I knew the issue, and could make a plan of attack.

He wants to stick with the height example because it mirrors his situation, of feeling he has changed his mind about something you cannot change to please him, or something he cannot change about himself to please you - but he can't talk about those real things.

These hypotheticals are like hand puppets, or the Japanese women being "examined" by a physician by pointing to a doll, because the doctor was not permitted to look at her body or touch it.

Yes I have thought about that point....dishonesty....but my spouse won't see his choice of witholding his feelings or thoughts about something as him being dishonest....I hope one day he does as we can never have a real relationship unless he sees how damaging this is to us.

And yes this has been going on the entire 20yrs...and YES I have asked him to talk openly & honestly with me all 20yrs worth....he won't do it...he tells me it is difficult for him to be close to anyone....and he sees no purpose in it also (to share O&H...other than to cause more damage).

It's okay if I do it once in awhile...if he's in the "right" mood....but for the most part he prefers it to just not happen...period. Told me last night it's normal to not be able to be comfortable or talk to ones spouse but perfer friends or relatives instead....I said not a healthy marriage the MB way....your spouse is supposed to be the ONE person in your life you are the closes to and knows you better than any other human being alive...and I looked at him and said I desire this so much and I want to be that spouse for you....I want you to think of me 1st when you want to talk about anything and come to me and enjoy sharing with me....I desire this kind of marriage.

He is just stuck on it being not healthy approach to relating in marriage....he seems to disagree with so much of the MB stuff....I don't know if I can suffer through reading the entire book with him but I know if he could just read it all and stop trying to analyze it all and be the know it all and just look at it as a helpful tool he could actually get something good from it...so far he has gotten nothing out of it....but ways to say it is flawed big time and missing key elements/events/situations in life so therefore invalid.