And they might not be the ideal medications for her. She may need to talk to her doctor about trying something else...

Gemstone, Soolee, you are both right. The down side is I have little effect on what my W does. Most of the time my opinion doesn't seem to count for much so i consider her condition/situation and try to do what a good person would do with out sinking myself.

Back to work for me.

I will re-read chapters 5 & 6 and determine how to apply the information to my life and fill in the holes with what ever I can find, like the self-care post i made from another friend on another forum.
Lou

She isn't wrong about the basic facts:

The libraries are full of books by socialists all the way back to the French Revolution with dreams of setting up world dictatorship, and they constantly try, everywhere they can. Likewise, you can read Muslim radicals preaching how they will take over Europe by immigrating there and having lots of children. The communist Chinese still have their dreams of world domination, not using state subsidized trade wars.

Okay, so she is right about the basic facts. And if she only recently learned some of this history, I can see how it would shock her. Most people would find the details and connections to be too much to absorb, much less believe.

Lots of people were dismissed by their spouses and friends for warning them about Lenin and Hitler. Turns out they were right. So keep an open mind, but try to get her occupied in some RC and UA that will take her mind off all these things. Discuss some of these things with her, and help her separate the wheat from the chaff. If she senses you are dismissing her as a nutcase, it is not going to make her feel loving towards you.

Morning everybody!

Okay, so we're going to incorporate chapters 5 and 6 this week.

One thing that I wanted to mention is that Dr. H revised this book for several reasons. One of the explanations, in reference to the new version, is here:

I have placed a greater emphasis on overcoming abuse and control in marriage. They should never be tolerated under any circumstances, and I underscore that fact. The first three Love Busters (demands, disrespect and anger) have been rearranged from the way they were presented in earlier editions so that I could show how they create an escalation of abuse and control.

Angry outbursts have been a regular thing in my marriage. I'm not proud of that - to first be on the receiving end and then as years went by as a participant. Angry outbursts have caused a lot of pain in my marriage. The first angry outburst occurred on my honeymoon...on the beach...

The second angry outburst occurred the first week of our marriage...over a meatloaf.

I think we remember the things that affect us the most, and I think I remember this because it was a time in my life when I should have been my happiest, and I've always felt I was a bit robbed...that positive energy was extinguished each and every time there was an AO...

I have always been a little afraid of broaching the whole LB thing. In my mind, I've been DJing his response for years. I plan to broach it in conversation, one LB at a time, but first telling him where I recognize my own faults with each type of LB and asking him for his help with it. I have found all three of the first major LBs present in my marriage with DJs and AOs being the worst.

I'm happy to say that last night my dh and I were able to discuss it a bit - the book, MB in general. He is not a MBing spouse, at least not yet, but on the other hand he is not dead set against it. I emphasized to him that MB was 'good stuff' and that I would like a MBing marriage. We will see how it goes.

Even sitting down and reading this book in his presence was going outside my comfort zone last night, and much to my surprise was not met with disdain or ridicule. No rolling eyes, and possibly even a bit of curiosity on his part when I was using the highlighter.

Sometimes...I think that our fear drives our decisions to the point that we forget what we're capable of. We forget that we are capable of change. We allow that fear to sell our spouses short, and we live with our choices - even when we might not have to. We're 'so sure' of the outcome that we don't even try...

That being said, Chapter 5 is about ANGRY OUTBURSTS

Dr. H defines it as follows:

Deliberate attempts to hurt your spouse because of anger, usually in the form of verbal or physical attacks.

Two of the first things I highlighted in this chapter were:

An angry outburst is usually an effort to teach a lesson -- the one partner feels hurt and angrily tries to show the other how that feels.

and

Romantic love becomes the victim of their anger.

I found the chapter to be pretty dead on with us. Dr. H has a very keen knowledge into this LB, with very clear perception. I felt like he knew us very well...

Any thoughts? Can anyone else relate to this chapter?

Answer: in the context of this book and Chapter 6... don't have an angry outburst over lack of SF.

Most recent running discussion on RetiredCop's question is in..
How can a husband receive the SF he needs in marriage?
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2365352#Post2365352

bumping

Would anyone else like to chime in on the AO chapter? I think this is a very important one that many would benefit from if openly discussed. I know it is a painful chapter for many, but let's try to be O&H if possible and discuss what has and has not worked for us when it comes to dealing with AOs.

Dr. H discusses how the first two LBs lead up and escalate to AOs. Can anyone relate to that? In my case it feels often like they just come out of nowhere. I find that my husband holds a lot of his feelings in until he cannot control them anymore. So to me, they appear to just come out of nowhere.

While AOs usually precede physical abuse, in my case they basically haven't. However, they are still hard to live with. My dh won't get counseling for this. Are there any good books out there that we can recommend to angry people?

Dr. H discusses Action steps to overcome AOs. I will list them here:

1) IDENTIFY INSTANCES OF ANGRY OUTBURSTS AND THEIR EFFECTS

On page 91, he gives a list of 7 questions for the recipient of the anger. At the top of page 92, there's a very important paragraph that I highlighted.

2) UNDERSTAND WHY ANGRY OUTBURSTS TAKE PLACE

On page 93, he gives a list of 8 questions for the angry person to answer.

For those of us dealing with AOs...are these two questionnaires something we would feel comfortable going over with our spouses at some point?

3) TRY TO AVOID THE CONDITIONS THAT TEND TO TRIGGER ANGRY OUTBURSTS

When I first read this, I thought...what is he kidding? I rarely seem to have even a clue that an AO is coming... Then I thought about how my husband builds things up and our lack of communication...

4) WHEN YOU CANNOT AVOID CONDITIONS THAT TRIGGER ANGRY OUTBURSTS, FIND AN INDIVIDUAL OR SUPPORT GROUP TO HELP YOU LEARN TO CONTROL YOUR TEMPER UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS.

Dr. H states here: Angry outbursts in marriage should be avoided at all costs, because they represent an extreme form of abuse. And a mistake of the other spouse should never be viewed as an excuse.

5) MEASURE YOUR PROGRESS

He asks the wife to keep her husband accountable by writing down any instances of what she perceives as AOs. How your spouse interprets your expression of feelings will determine if they feel it was punishment or not...

On page 104, Dr. H lays out the Key Principles. The second bulleted item reads like this:

When selfish demands and disrespectful judgments fail to get you what you need from your spouse,your Taker's next approach is to use angry outbursts. It is the third and final escalation of abuse as a strategy for getting your way.

Thus one of the reasons why Dr. H revised the book in the order he did...with chapters on SDs and DJs preceding AOs. I have a lot of learning to do here, myself.

For those dealing with this, I propose that we seriously consider broaching the subject of the first three LBs to our spouses (or for ourselves if we find that we are the problem) and address this first in the privacy of our homes with Dr. H's help as suggested in this important chapter. However,
Dr. H states something important in the last bulleted item among the Key Principles:

If either of you cannot seem to gain control over your angry outbursts, I suggest you find professional help. Most hospitals and mental health clinics offer anger management therapy that has proven to be effective. But not all therapy is equal, so be certain that the therapist you select is recommended by doctors or social service agencies who have witnessed first-hand their effectiveness in treating this serious problem.

I'd also like to suggest that if it comes to that, check out your group insurance policy. Some groups actually do cover therapies like this. Before we write off alternatives like this, let's first investigate. If you're concerned about privacy, call your insurance first to discuss any concerns over confidentiality.

Heya - Sool I'm hoping to be able to chime in tomorrow - I've had a looming deadline that's kept me from reading. Just want to let you know you're not alone out here and I'll hopefully be in the next day or so..... silly work eating up all my time.

Gonna read your insights now.

Sign me up for some of the same and most of that is in the past. It didn�t happen often and only when I listened way too long to something I didn�t agree with.

Now I listen and think OK she can have any opinion she wants, doesn�t mean I have to agree with her opinion and it can be from outer space or based on some perfect world she thinks life should be. I am getting better with not feeling like we are a team. I am getting more comfortable not feeling responsible for my W actions or beliefs. She can be responsible for her actions, beliefs. I don�t have to cover all the bases for what she wants to do or thinks is right.

I can also state my beliefs and feelings and not expect her to agree or support me. It is OK to be different and self reliant, not expect support.

Some MB couple?

I just wanted you (Soolee) I am still reading the book and the forum and appreciate what you are doing and posting on this thread..

Lou

Thanks Lou.

Reading your post,

...it can be from outer space or based on some perfect world she thinks life should be. I am getting better with not feeling like we are a team...

Sounds like you're venting from frustration today? Can I just say that I think it's okay not to always be on the same page? Doesn't mean you weren't meant to be together.

...I am getting more comfortable not feeling responsible for my W actions or beliefs...

Good

...She can be responsible for her actions, beliefs. I don�t have to cover all the bases for what she wants to do or thinks is right...

My take on it is that within reason you should try to fill her top ENs.

Have you talked to her lately about concern over her medication and self care? Where is your boundary with this? If this is overflowing into your marriage, it concerns you. If it concerns you, it should concern her. It's valid and worthy of consideration. Do you think it's possible to POJA with her on approaching her when you feel her medication may need adjusting without upsetting her?

(You can discuss this with luriossi sometime. I believe she and her husband have an agreement on a similar issue.)

The problem as I see it we are on the same page, but only sometimes. If it isn�t her idea, she doesn�t do it, not only with me but anyone else�s ideas. Some of her ideas she loses interest in if they become difficult. Most of the time I am onboard but I got tired of her changing plans midstream.

�Meant to be� well I used to feel sometimes �meant to be� was real. Now I think/feel �meant to be� is fiction and what works is working at relationships and being flexible. �Meant to be� is for people that want easy. Chemistry is something I see at work dut haven't figured out why that works sometimnes and sometimes not. I guess you have it or you don't.

My W POAJ would have so many �exit clauses� why have one. See< I don�t think a POJA can be written in stone the first time if the issues are big issues. Even little issues can have unforeseen issues that make following the POJA sort of difficult but still worth working on till the POJA is improved.

I guess the big thing (bad) with me is my W�s exit clauses if and when we might do a POJA. I tried something like a POJA but she wanted t so many �outs� and wouldn�t agree to any goals because she couldn�t tell how she would feel/think in a week/month from now.

No, I am not bitter today, I sort of don�t expect much from my W and have learned not to expect her to do much of anything out of her comfort zone, which is rather small. Limited and has a lot of conditions.
I am reading this and other books (10+) for my benefit. I don�t expect much from my W(and I dislike saying �my W� because she really is her own person/independent, her pets care taker, more than a W at times.


Well, I do most of her ENs but it is difficult to hear what I could have done better or what didn�t meet her expectation.
In the meantime I act married but think solo for self care reasons. I have to depend on myself for most of my EN�s. Work helps me in some of those areas but the deep/personal ENs are really parched. It rains every now and then and I do for myself what I can, when I can.

One thing I liked about learning country dancing was the other people were there because they wanted to learn something new, weren�t critical of someone else�s mistakes and I suspect a few weren�t getting some of their ENs met at home or were hungry for positive human interactions. It felt good to be appreciated by individuals in the group (think group rather than couple efforts) and it felt good to be part of a positive experience.


She was a nurse in a hospital and thinks that trumps my medical knowledge so only listens to me if I do what she tells to do. On most medical topics she knows a lot more than I know but at times she gives me some crappy advice, mostly over captious and based on some fear that only comes true in 1 out of 1,000 cases. When I state my concerns to her, she tells me �I don�t really understand her condition� and most things I say don�t apply to her case.

When I say what is on my mind or even ask questions, she turns it into some form of me getting on her case or me wanting her do something she can�t do. More often than not what I intend and say, she takes as criticism.

It works out better for her if I don�t say much. Fewer LB are inflicted. So I don�t say much anymore and do more self-care when and how possible.

Lou

Oops, I just now saw this... Yes my copy arrived, and after I read chapters 1 and 2 I started at the beginning of the thread, reading more carefully. I'd stopped reading the thread until I'd read chapters 1&2.

I'm now almost finished with ch.3, so I'm working my way through the thread as I catch up with the chapters. This is great stuff! And man-oh-man, is it ever applicable to my marriage.

I had only read HNHN before. I thought that, along with the stuff available online, was enough. But reading entire chapters, rather than just an article, gets the importance of the concept to sink in.

I knew intellectually that you need to eliminate LBs before meeting ENs will work. I've even told that to others.

But now I see how far short I was falling in putting it into practice.

This is very very good for my marriage, y'all. Thanks.

in my world I stuff everything that remotely bothers me thinkining it's not worth calling them on it & little by little it builds up to boom. A AO in the making.

The only one way I know how to fix this is by saying something when it occurs or shortly there after. Trying this approach & seeing if it will work. So far so good.

This book discusses the Outbursts of Anger. Dr. Harley lays out AOs as a progression of controlling behavior which begins in Selfish Demands, then escalates to attempts and shaming with Disrespectful Judgements, and finally Angry Outbursts.

A lot of it is simmering anger that does burst forth, totally unrelated to the situation at hand. This is rooted in resentment. It may be old SDs that were not met, and DJs that did not work, and are stored up. The current AO doesn't work, so the subject is redirected to some historical anger and an AO is made about that.

Harley revisits the POJA, and talks about how much of this resentment is rooting in "unspoken agreements", and the feeling of betrayal. Using the POJA would have avoided that, because there would be no assumptions about "unspoken agreements", no sacrificial acts, so actions based on expectations of getting something in return.

Well, we didn't practice POJA 10 or 20 or 30 years ago. The solution to anger seems to be to practice it now, unwind the resentments by recognizing and stopping the behavior immediately, not winding it down from AOs to DJs to SDs.

I can see exactly how POJA would of solved a lot of our issues.

Thinking about your post today made me pick apart some of my AO's & Dr H is correct that they come out because of your giver giving to the extent that your taker takes over.

I give & give & give some more until my taker steps in & says hey wait a minute what about me?

Also past resentments is a biggie. Upset with H & yell at my DD because the trash wasn't taken out before it over flowed.

I'm trying to speak up on my own behalf & say hey I don't agree, or that hurts my feelings when you do xyz.

Also stopping & counting to 10 has helped a lot also. lol

I never have been in a book club before, read a lot but never been in a club so do not know if I should be giving my personal spin on it.

Curious thou if you have AO's how do you deal with them ?

I believe for us, both of us feel our Giver's are in full throttle all the time, and we both have this 'fog' when it comes to the reality that while we may be enmeshed in the mentality that we Give far more than we take, we actually 'take away from' the relationship with the resentment that being a constant Giver creates.

I realize that is splitting hairs and digging deeper than perhaps Dr.H intends, but well heck - I'm a philosophical personality and just can't help myself.

So, we need to broach chapter 6. I should have done this yesterday, but I was very very busy.

So here we go:

DISHONESTY
"Who wants to live with a liar?"

Dr. H discusses how Radical Honesty (also known here on the forums as "RH") is essential in marriage.

He defines it as: Complete honesty about one's feelings, past experiences, present activities,and future plans.

He states that radical honesty "...provides a clear road map for marital adjustment." I have to agree with this statement. No one wants to be kept in the dark and blindsided later on. That isn't fair, and it's thoughtless.

He says..."...sometimes dishonesty covers up both the problems themselves and the solutions to those problems." (He is so smart.)

Any comments, insight, or personal experiences any of you would like to add?

lol another one of my favorites.

Said in the begining this is my life just written down in a book format.

I personally feel lies of omission hurt just as much as the lies that are told to your face.

My RH was not used to most of the time to keep from hurting H's feelings. Usually in the SF department.

I see now if I would swallowed my giver just a tad & spoke up things in that dept could of been worked on before we slid all the way down the hill.

In my mind I was protecting my H. In fact I was setting my self up for a dishonest marriage.

Regrets ...... if I only knew then what I know now.

Hi Soolee, this is one of the main themes in Buyers Renters and Freeloaders. That Renters believe in sacrifice in marriage, that both folks will sacrifice in marriage. When I was a Renter, it wasn't because I wanted to sacrifice now in order to get to take later, it was that our love busters sapped my faith in our ability to resolve issues in ways that don't involve sacrifice. That's the Buyers' challenge, to practice POJA, to put the time and energy in short term, to find the solutions that will strengthen the relationship long-term.

As an example, I spent a lot of time agonizing about, move under conditions I wasn't enthusiastic about, or don't move. Even though I'd found conditions that would have made me enthusiastic about it, I was still pressuring myself to find a way to be enthusiastic without those conditions, live having work out there first. That was an unproductive way to spend my energy.

Ha, maybe that goes to the dishonesty? I did the thoughtful request, found I didn't like it, and still pressured myself after that.