Then they would need to find a solution that made them BOTH happy. That is the answer to every problem. Some situations are tough, granted, but it doesn't mean you don't try.

huh? You have the right to get a divorce any time you want. The POJA is for married people to use voluntary. If someone doesn't want to be married, then the issue of POJA is a moot point. Being married and using the POJA is a voluntary activity.

This is a completely separate issue from the POJA. Most renters and freeloaders don't WANT to give up their independent behavior. MB does not claim to be able to FORCE a person to use these principles against their will.

I am getting confused about some of the posts here. I thought this thread was to discuss the POJA, not to discuss people who refuse to use it. We all know some people won't use it. That is their right.

Sorry, I probably took it a bit off track

I guess my main point is even those who use the POJA can abuse it depending on their mindset.

The beauty of POJA is that you plan how you are going to handle a situation in the future, instead of struggling with it and each other ad hoc.

Some things are bigger than just POJA. They require commitment, like buying a dog or horse when you were a kid, or having children when you are an adult.


What about the happiness of the dog, horse, and children?

Sometimes you have to learn why you no longer like what you asked for, and decide you are going to like it, or at least like yourself for doing the right thing.

What about it? If your marriage is important to you, you will use the POJA to find mutually satisfying solutions. If its not, then don't use it.

This is advice for people who WANT to use POJA. If you don't want to use it, don't use it. It is entirely voluntary.


That is a decision every person has to make for himself. But if someone wants to use the POJA and they want to have a romantic marriage, they will find a solution that makes both partners happy.

I am puzzled by so many posts that seem to be trying to find reasons to NOT USE POJA rather than ways TO use POJA. What is the point? If you don't want to use it, then don't use it. But why clutter up a thread with posts with non-productive "what ifs" and "yah buts." Just reject it and move on.

I will just say that I created a great marriage by finding ways to USE the concepts, not by spending my time looking for reasons to NOT use it.

Melody, I don't think many of us are "finding reasons to not use POJA". We are saying that just as POJA is not just for the happiness of one spouse at the expense of the other, it is not for the spouse's joint happiness at the expense of their children or other responsibilities. Those responsibilities are the framework in which POJA must sometimes operate, on the bigger decisions where there is no going back and undoing things.

But if you and your spouse are not agreed on the priority of those other responsibilities, then you are essentially making a disrespectful judgment of your spouse, implying that they are too incompetent to recognize how important this subject is ... and that they would be so irresponsible as to not care properly for their own children. Or that they are so irresponsible that they would neglect their employment, or whatever the issue is.

To decree that these responsibilities are so important they must override your spouse's feelings is to decree that you see objective truth about what is important and your spouse does not. Better to take your opinion about the children, the job, or whatever, and treat it as subjective and allow your spouse to try to persuade you to their point of view.

It's a real challenge to make your spouse's feelings more important than everything, at all times. But it is best for your children.

I'm definitely NOT looking for reasons not to use POJA. In fact, even in a relationship where one spouse is not on board with MB principles, using POJA, I think it's a great tool for me to use because it protects me from sacrifice and resentment. I love POJA, because it helps me know what MY boundaries are. And it also helps me protect my spouse from sacrifice, to the extent that he is honest during the negotiations. And even if he isn't fully honest, or simply changes his mind after the fact and is procrastinating or doing one of those other things Retread talked about, the beauty of POJA is that we can go back to the drawing board and come up with a better solution. Some conflicts are harder to resolbve than others. And certainly the ideal is that both people are there in good faith, to find a solution that will work for both. But in the event that there is no solution that works for both, the other beauty of POJA is that it allows you to discover this in a way that protects our love banks, rather than depleting them.

I think my main reason for the thread was to open a discussion about it because while it is being discussed on the book club thread, some people are not actually reading the LB book, and I felt it was such an important topic to create a separate thread for.

I also wanted it to be a place where we could talk out loud about what is and is NOT working for us, and get some ideas from each other why. Learn from each other not just what to do, but what not to do. It could very well be that POJA is working for some because they are following POJA to the "T" or it could be that it isn't working for others because of a special circumstance that others here could help with. For instance, perhaps like I mentioned earlier, we are accepting our spouse's acquiescence and processing it as enthusiasm when we should actually be brave enough to read into that and table the issue for a time until we know that our spouse is happy with it. (Personally I think this is what causes some personality types to back out of a POJA.)

I suggested earlier on the other thread that perhaps we should stop making excuses and just go with it. Try it. And if it doesn't work, read about POJA again, the steps to it, to determine if we went wrong at some point.

Personally, I think two of the best advantages of using POJA is that it provides us with an opportunity to deposit love units. I mean...even if your spouse is in withdrawal you can deposit love units by using this.

Also, it eliminates IB, which if left to run rampant can cause some major problems in a marriage.

What an excellent thought, Markos! I love it!

Retread, I find it disappointing that you devote all of your time trying to manufacture reasons NOT to use POJA rather than ways to use it. You excuse this by saying it is "at the expense of their children" but that makes no sense. The POJA builds strong, stable marriages, which obviously benefits children. It is in the best interest of children for parents to have a great marriage. That is why the marriage must be put FIRST.

Responsibilities do not serve as the framework of a marriage, but a great marriage should drive how those responsibilites are met. ESPECIALLY, big decisions should be made using the POJA. Yes, decisions most certainly can and should be undone if one of the partners is unhappy.

I understand you have serious problems in your own marriage, but how is it helpful to others here to spend all your time devising and manufacturing "yah buts?" That can't be helpful to your own marriage, Retread. Are you really here to learn or are you here to obstruct and spread gloom?

Great post, Soolee. It DOES eliminate IB's. If I can learn to use the POJA, then anyone can because I was the IB queen. But I did not implement it by looking for excuses NOT to use it. I had to actively seek ways to use it.

In my experience, the POJA has been the HARDEST thing for me to get. But it also made the greatest impact on my marriage. My marriage went to new level of happiness and intimacy using the POJA. It alleviated a tension I was not aware of that improved my marriage tremendously.

Perfectly said!

Another part of me believes that if my feelings change, it is not right for me to change plans at the whim of my feelings. Seems kind of opposite of what MB is all about, feelings following actions.

It just seems that could be very easily abused by a stonewalling spouse.

I can see what you mean here, but another concern is that if we are a Giver by nature when it comes to POJA, what other areas of the marriage are we allowing the Giver to take over? This could end up being a recipe for resentment and, as a by product, feelings of being controlled, which could eventually lead to anger and other negative characteristics.

I see nothing wrong with saying, "Spouse, I'm aware we made an agreement to (fill in the blank), but something has happened that is causing me to feel differently. I would like to discuss this further before we keep going in this direction." I think that to NOT speak up is more detrimental to the marriage than to be O&H about how you're feeling. It is up to the other spouse to recognize chronic reneging and be O&H about noticing a pattern so that it can be addressed, but a bit of flexibility and willingness to regroup on a POJA and renegotiate is not anti MB, from my perspective.

I don't think POJA is about or should be about forcing someone to keep an original agreement. It's not a legal contract. That can be construed, in fact, as a selfish demand. As Dr. H says...the solution that makes both people happy is what is most likely to become a habit. If it isn't making both people happy, it's not going to work in the long run. What's more it's going to erode your love for each other.

I don't know where you got this idea...
... because I am a big fan of POJA. I think it is a great concept, and I have listed several reasons why in my posts above this one.

All I am saying is that something you POJA cannot be renegotiated, when the actions have already taken place. (for example, after you had that child, after you worked to send your spouse through college). Everybody should discuss the ramifications in advance, and be ready to follow through on their COMMITMENT to those serious subjects. Less important subjects can be revised through more POJA, and should be.

Don't know where you got this notion, either.

No EA or PA, no addictions, no real fighting.
I am here because I have been trying for years to find a way to move my marriage out of dull routines, and get things geared up for fun when my children were grown. I found MB, think it's great, but my wife acted insulted, like, "What's wrong with our marriage? What's wrong with me?" ... but not like she wanted to hear any complaints. So I am here trying to figure out how to get her on board. My way is to eliminate LBs, try to guess and meet her ENs, and use POJA at for everything, big and small, and get her into MB.

In fact, POJA is something you can implement without the other party having read HNHN or taking the ENQ or LBQ. It does not require both parties understanding and buying into MB, like Radical Honesty does.

There are some subjects where POJA does require more buy in, such as in SF. In fact, I gave an example of using POJA for SF today.. post #2373081.

I'm the quoting queen today I think you meant to say "responsibilities DO serve as the framework . . ." Anyway, I really love this idea. Enough that I wanted to pull it out and empahsize it. Marriage, by it's very nature, carries with it certain responsibilities . . . meeting EN for one! But how two different people unite in meeting those needs will vary from couple to couple. The solutions are as unique as both people themselves. I think sometimes we discount our own potential creativity as couples.


One of my all time favorite ML quotes is "the only thing worse than making a bad promise is keeping a bad promise." Or something like that

And in this way, POJA can be an excellent diagnostic tool. If my spouse has a habit of needing to renegotiate the decision time and time again, I see that as chronic dishonesty, even if it is unintentional (and I think most dishonesty of this type is). the way that I would respond to this kind of pattern in POJA usage is to make a simply stated complaint. "Hun, it seems like every time we come to an agreement on this, you end up changing your mind. It really bothers me and depletes my love bank because I never know if you are truly agreeing or just trying to avoid a conflict, and I end up feeling disappointed. How do you suggest we fix this?"

Another opportunity for POJA!

And for courtesy's sake, when I use POJA to elecit solutions from my husband, I try to be enthusiastic about one of the solutions he offers rather than push for my own, if I can. Sometimes I can't, but I think it's just a good way to deposit even more in his love bank if I actually use one of his suggestions. Makes him more likely to negotiate with me and actually bring his honesty to the table the next time.

Also, if he DOES change his mind, I don't think I should punsish him for it. I certainly change my mind plenty, and sometimes I go along to get along, too, so I wouldn't want to be punished for that. I can make a complaint without using a punishing tone

Well, yes it can be renegotiated. And should be renegotiated if one spouses feelings change. Everything in marriage should be subject to the POJA.

Practicing POJA in my marriage is an admirable end in itself, but I wanted to share, too, that it didn't just help in that one area. I am a more confident parent, knowing that as a family we can come to decisions together that work for all of us. I am a better sibling and daughter, getting consensus what to do for holidays with the extended family. It's even great for individual decisions, am I still enthusiastic about XYZ? What would make me enthusiastic about trying for two weeks?