He turns the radio off when he talks in the car. I think the static comes from the wind and road noise you get at higher speeds.

I am going to watch closely when I ask about lunch. I know some of the signs that he's lying but there might be some I've missed.

I haven't expressed concern about him taking a woman out because I've always trusted him. He knows I trust him so it was never a big deal. Since he always referred to her as a client, I thought it was okay. Now I know better. He has used my trust against me which I gather is fairly common among waywards. Now I'm using the fact that he trusts me to aid in my snooping. What comes around, goes around, right?

Yes, true. On all counts.

I woke up thinking about you today. I am hopeful for some really good intel today. And I hope I don't come across as hoping he is proved a liar....but it seems easier to prove that someone IS a liar and a cheat than it is to prove they AREN'T a liar and a cheat.

Thanks SmilingWoman, your messages are always so nice. I know what you mean that you are not hoping he is a liar. We both know that he has already been proven a liar, I just need proof of the extent of his lies. I'm praying for good intel today. They should be having their "lunch" as we speak. Whatever happens, knowing has to be better than living like this (once I get past the inital shock anyway). I am ready to move forward. I keep trying to remind myself that I might not get the intel from today and might need to be even more patient than I've previously been. Hope for the best but prepare for the worse, right?

Thanks for checking in on me. You've been more helpful to me than you will ever know. It's nice to know that someone is thinking of me on this difficult day.

I'm still very worried about you, Anne.

You've been unbelievably strong sitting on this while trying to get confirmation, but I'm very worried about what the wondering and snooping is getting to you inside.

It sounds like a very dangerous place to me when you're actually HOPING to find proof of an affair. If that proof doesn't come, then the cycle of uncertainty continues. And, as long as that cycle continues your love bank balance is taking hit after hit.

We all agree that your husband has undoubtedly been engaging in inappropriate independent behavior, including lies, that is damaging to the marriage. And, what about the small possibility that the physical affair hasn't happened yet?

I'm more and more of the opinion that you need to lay all of your cards on the table and soon. I don't think bluffing is a good idea, if he's as good at lying and gaslighting as you think he will call you on it. Also, state what you know without giving up your sources.

He may be able to defend all of his actions individually, but together they paint a picture of a marriage that needs help and maybe you can parlay that into get him reading MB material such as HNHN.

((hugs)) anne.

I admire your calm approach. I hope you get what you need.

Schtoop - Thank you for your concern. I really do appreciate it. This is very difficult but I am coping. The bottom line is that I have been at this for two months and I am not going to blow it now. My husband is an excellent liar and must be confronted with as much proof as possible. Whether this confrontation will lead to recovery or to divorce court remains to be seen. Either way, I need more information. I simply can not proceed with what I have.

Lexxxy - Thank you. You have no idea what your words mean to me.

I checked his credit card statement and they went to lunch at a place very close to where she works so it's my guess they walked. I was hoping he would give her a ride but it doesn't look like it. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that he talked to her on the phone in his car. I've already decided that if I don't get what I need from today's lunch date, I will wait it out until I get my proof. That might not make sense to many of you but it's what I need to do.

I do understand and it makes sense.

If you are coping and can hang in there a little longer, then by all means do it.

Just try to keep up with meeting EN's and avoiding lovebusters while you wait. I know how hard that is when one is increasingly bitter and resentful inside.

Anne --

I totally understand your reasons. I've also had experience with that type of man who can weasel out of anything.
You can have drop dead proof -- and he would still try to come up with an angle.

Get what you need.

You certainly don't seem like you are on the edge of a breaking point. Like I said -- I greatly admire your calm strength!
Good for you!

Too many women jump too early with accusations, then find themselve gaslight for months. And then it is just THAT MUCH HARDER to get the proof you need.

Makes perfect sense to me. And I also don't feel like you are on the verge of breaking. It is amazing what you get used to living with this type of personality. I had to suffer through many many weeks of knowing without telling him what I knew and how I knew it.

My sister was visiting from out of state when I found out the last of the info that pushed me over the edge. I kept everything to myself for 10 days until she went home and then told my WH and my family what I'd found. That has been almost a year....the other day my mom told me that haunts her....that I held that in to not ruin my sister's visit....Honestly....that wasn't that difficult for me. I think it would have been more difficult to ruin my sister's visit. One just gets used to dealing with unfathomable realities.

One year later----I'm good. You will be too Anne.

You're right, I'm not on the verge of breaking. I know that my patience will pay off in the long run. This is just a nasty fact of my life now but one with which I must deal. I have to say that this is showing me a strength that I never knew I had. If I can make it through this, I can do anything.

I didn't get what I needed yesterday. I can add a few more lies to the mix but no actual proof. I sent him an email yesterday morning telling him I loved him. I do this sometimes so it doesn't look weird that I did it yesterday. I also sent an email about school stuff and referenced the school email when he got home. The minute I said "email", he jumped and said he didn't check email today which is a lie because I checked his email and I know he read them. Very interesting to see his reaction to that. Now he just sent me a response to my "I love you" email which says, "Just seeing this !!!!!! Thank you so much for being my wife. I am very happy to be having a lil girl with you and the boys! You know I love you guys more than life itself." Is this man a good liar or what?

When I asked what he had for lunch, he told me and I asked him where he went. He said he got a call from ButterFace and had lunch with her (another lie since I know he invited her to lunch on Monday). Does he really think I'm so stupid to think she just happened to call him on the one day he would be near her office (their offices are an hour away from each other). Jeez. Anyway, he told me she is thinking of changing jobs so this might be what she wanted to "bounce off of him". The job would have her working closer to home (also closer to our home). Also, he said he needs to get his presentation in for her business and I said "You haven't done that yet? I thought that's what that night a few months ago was all about and that it was already done." Then he talked about how busy everyone is. I knew he didn't do the presentation yet but I just wanted to see what he would say when I brought up the last time they went out. He acted nervous and slightly defensive.

Here is what I got from the VAR. As I feared, they walked to lunch so she was not in his car. Anyway, as he got out of the car, he said to himself "I'm gonna get lucky." When he got back in the car after lunch, he muttered her name and then something I couldn't make out under his breath. Now, as for whether or not he got lucky, I don't know. If he did, it had to be in the restaurant or bathroom (which is completely possible, I know). But, I don't think anything happened because he talked to Dirtbag Friend on the way home and told him he had lunch with her. I'm inclined to believe (but understand I could be wrong) that he would have mentioned anything that would have resulted in him "getting lucky" during lunch. What fun is cheating on your wife and getting some at lunch if you can't brag to your friends, right?

So, once again, a lot of drama over nothing. However, he did tell Dirtbag that he invited her out to gamble with them but she was not interested. She does want to go out with them but not to gamble. WH made a joke that she wants to get "double dutched".

Here is a rethorical question for you. What kind of woman thinks it's okay to hang out with two married men? Doesn't that raise any red flags for her? And why would you seek advice from your married "friend with benefits" about changing jobs. Shouldn't this be a red flag to WH that she thinks enough of him to get his opinion and maybe has feelings for him? Or am I overthinking this?

I'm doing okay today. Disappointed but determined. Thanks for all the support I get here. I know my situation is not exactly typical and kind of strange and I think you all for helping me to navigate my way through it.

Ok, weird affair stuff possibility aside (I'm not discounting it, just putting it aside for the moment), is it possible that he and Butterface could be in on some below-the-radar, even slightly illegal money making scheme? That might account for the "I'm gonna get lucky" statement. And not sharing it with dirtbag.

The whole situation stinks, Anne. And it's not right in the least. But I have been wondering if he's trying to do some business (and I'm not talking sex-related business) with this woman on the side...stuff his company would NOT like.

OurHouse - They are lawyers so I don't think it's even possible for them to do any business under the table. The phrase "friends with benefits" has come up about ButterFace as well as one of Dirtbag's women (there are several). That is what is going on here but I don't have enough to prove it. Thanks, though, for showing me a possible explanation. It's good to know what I might face when this comes out in the open. I'm sure WH will have an entire bag of lies ready to go when I confront.

I think Dirtbag said it best when he asked if I knew they were going out. WH said "Yes, she knows, I am trying to get business from her." Dirtbag said "I'm sure she does but does she know what kind of business. You know you are trying to [censored] her again." That tells me what I need to know although it doesn't give me proof.

I don't have much time to post but wanted to let you know I read your update and I'm thinking about you. Keep up the work.....I think you will eventually get proof. I do think you might need to consider getting a PI (even if you have to borrow the money)...but I would get one lined up and then the next time you know he is going to see her have him followed.

I will admit he is slippery....and showing more and more that he is a practiced liar. Sounds creepily familiar to me.

(((Anne)))

Thanks SmilingWoman. I know you speak from experience. I will get my proof...eventually. He can't be careful all the time. He is an expert liar, isn't he? His email to me made me sick. How do you go about finding a PI?

The more I listen to the way he said her name after he got back in the car, the more I think something did happen or maybe she teased him. It's the tone he said it with that is so disturbing. I wish I could figure out the few words he says after he says her name.

I'm getting a microphone for the VAR that is supposed to reduce background noise. I hope it helps. I'm sending a money order for the keylogger software (so glad you can do it that way). I should be able to get it on his computer Monday night.

One other thing...guess who was checking out the Ashley Madison Agency website earlier this week. Oh yeah...I'm getting keylogger!!!

Oh Anne...ewwwwwww

What a piece of slime! We all know AM is for one thing, and one thing only. I'd love to be able to see him explain that away!

Any way you can preserve that browser history for your files?

I'm afraid I already know how he will explain it. On the VAR, I heard him listening to talk radio last week on the way to work. They were talking about Ashley Madison and how it's become so popular, especially with newly married women. He will just say he heard them talk about it and looked at it out of curiosity.

I think I am starting to learn to stay one step ahead of him.

I would love to hear how he could explain away the "I'm going to get lucky" comment before meeting ButterFace. But, he's good and I'm sure he would find a way. Maybe he got lucky finding by getting a good parking spot in the city. Oh yeah, I'm learning his ways!

Good for you! My first response to your Ashley Madison comment was "Well, I never had any interest in checking it out the first time I heard of it!" But you're right, he sounds like he could spin just about anything.

Hang in there, Anne - your tenacity is second to none!

The PI I hired was worthless. After I had my evidence I filed for divorce. My attorney told me that the PI I chose (out of the phone book) was an X-cop and said he never did good for anyone....in my fact my attorney sued him on behalf of another client for take his client's money and giving nothing in the way of services. Anyway, all that to say that my attorney said if I had just come to him FIRST he would have given the name of a good PI. And in fact Anne, I definitely think you should consult attorney just to educate yourself...I bet he will have a good recommendation on a PI.

I don't remember if you've said before or not...but how did you get suspicious of your WH in the first place?

@MaritalBliss - Yes, he is good at spinning. Which is why I have to be good at predicting his actions as well as his words. I'm getting better at it.

@SmilingWoman - Good idea to get a PI from an attorney. I had already thought of that knowing that WH is an attorney and works with PIs sometimes. I started my financial file which I will need when I speak to an attorney. Once bills and statements come in, I put them away. Once I have everything, I can consider speaking with an attorney.

I got a little bit suspicious back in November when he went out with her and gave her a ride in my car but lied about why he took my car. I know for a fact he gave her a ride but he simply would not say it and started to get defensive. Honestly, I didn't think much too about it. I thought it was weird that he wouldn't just tell me. Now I know why.

When they went out in March, he was out really late which I thought was odd since A, she's a "client" and B, we had our son's birthday party the next day. So I texted him asking him if he was coming home (he will sometimes crash at his mom's house when he goes out drinking so he doesn't have to drive). He got so angry at me for texting him. One of the first things he said to me when he finally got home was "Don't you trust me?" He also wouldn't come near me or hug me (since he didn't have a chance to shower first, I'm sure...eeeewwww). He told me he was out late because his friends happend to call him and be nearby so they stopped in to have a drink with him and his client. I knew the way he was acting was not right and that I was seeing some pretty severe red flags.

So the next day, I got into his email and saw the "You know you are going to try to [censored] her again" email as well as one that said "Are you planning to [censored] ButterFace Friday night?" and that he and the friends had been planning the night out for a week.

I wish I had been more aware before March. I'm sure I would have seen many more red flags. Until very recently, I did trust him and thought there was no way he would jeopardize our life together. I could not have been more wrong. What hurts is that he's been using my trust against me all this time.

This jumped out at me. I realize that I didn't particularly trust Wxh, as much as I depended on him not being foolish enough to jeopardize our life together. He has always been very fond of his/our material things and I just thought he wouldn't risk giving up half of it in a divorce. What I didn't understand was that he thought I cared about our lifestyle as much as he did...he thought I'd never divorce him even if I caught him. I think he is still shell shocked that I just kicked him to the curb.

You said your mom knows? How is she holding up? I did not tell a single soul until I had enough to file for divorce. In fact, I filed first and then told my parents.