[emphasis mine]
Reg,

I agree completely with the above. What your husband is doing is far, far beyond getting an occasional 'thrill'. He is effectively either already HAVING AN AFFAIR or TRYING TO START AN AFFAIR.

So many people, both WSs & BSs, have a mistaken notion of what actually constitutes an affair/infidelity. If you asked most people on the street at random, they would say something like �an affair is when a married person has sex outside of their marriage�. This INCORRECT (in the sense that the definition is FAR too restrictive).

Outside of the rare �one night stand with a perfect stranger� situation, infidelity has taken place LONG BEFORE the individuals first have intercourse. It has taken place in fact LONG BEFORE the individuals engage in any romantic physical contact (kissing, hand-holding, embraces, etc). The physical activities, with actual sex being only the most obvious and incontrovertible of them, are merely the INEVITABLE MANIFESTATIONS OF A PRE-EXISTING INAPPROPRIATE, �BOUNDARY-CROSSING� EMOTIONAL/SOCIAL RELATIONSHIP OR CONNECTION between the affair-partners.

All EAs eventually become PAs if they continue long enough. And many, many EAs begin and are continued electronically these days. What constitutes an emotional-affair (i.e. an inappropriate but (as of yet) non-sexual extra-marital relationship) ??? Here are some clues (I�m leaving out uncommon homosexual affairs here):

1. If a married person is doing or saying ANYTHING with/to another member of opposite gender that he/she wouldn�t do or say with their spouse standing right next to them, then he/she is �over the line� and having an EA.

2. If a married person is initiating, maintaining, propagating, or continuing a relationship/connection with another member of opposite gender via SECRECY AND/OR DECEPTION FROM HIS/HER SPOUSE, then he/she is �over the line� and having an EA.

In other words, most cheating spouses are unfaithful via their words, their heart, their mind, their intent, their untruthfulness, and their body language LONG BEFORE they become frankly so with their private parts.

Yes, I know some couples use porn as a sex-tool and some people view it occasionally as an arousal mechanism (good or bad, right or wrong�I�ll leave that to the reader to decide for themselves). But, your husband is beyond that and beyond any possible �innocent� or �harmless� diversion. He is ACTIVELY ENGAGING AND SOLICITING AND CONTACTING OTHER WOMEN WITHOUT YOUR PRE-KNOWLEDGE & PRE-APPROVAL. He is seeking an affair, at the very least, and it is only a matter of time until he finds a willing female reciprocator (assuming he hasn�t already w/o your knowledge). His INTENT here has been to achieve SF, either physical or visual, with another woman/women. He is being unfaithful and completely inappropriate � I doubt your marital-sex-life (and emotional connection) with him can be much improved as long as he is getting this EN of his met on the outside this way.

reg,
You have gotten a lot of good advice from the MB viewpoint, all of it essentially the same, just coming at from different angles.

Just being another layman, I want to encourage you to talk with your marriage counselor alone. Here's why:

This is not all your husband's problem. Dr. Harley or any other good counselor is going to want to talk with husband and wife separately, to get their view of reality, and what each thinks is the problem. I doubt your husband told the counselor any of his interests in pornography, certainly not the extent of what you are describing.

Secondly, your husband may not be getting his emotional needs met through this fantasy life, and that is what it is. He is certainly trying, and he is refusing to have a normal relationship with you, which sounds like a classic Madonna-W___e complex, where the man thinks of sexual relations as wrong, something good women don't do; so he cannot do them with his wife, but seeks out women who are bad, whom he does not respect. Isn't that what most pornography is: disrespectful using of one person by another in an exaggerated display of unequal power?

I am not trying to play psychiatrist, just telling you why you should be talking about this to the same one who is listening to your husband.

I also think you should talk to the counselor, mainly because it doesn't sound like this guy is going to hear the truth unless YOU tell it to him.

Hi everyone:

My husband had his session alone with the marriage counselor yesterday. My husband wrote out all the activities that he has been engaged in. And he told the therapist that he has been deceptive and lied throughout all the counseling sessions that we've had. So, the counselor wants to see him for more individual sessions. Also, the counselor said that he is not to have access to the computer at home for 6 months.

I agree that I do need individual counseling but I was thinking about using another counseling for that. Over the last few months, I've felt so beat up (figuratively) in counseling because my husband had been lying and the counselor believed him. Each time I would say in counseling in front of them both, that my hsuband was being dishonest, the counselor said that I had unresolved issues that were relating to my childhood.

I am really confused right now. I don't know if I can trust my husband. And the counselor kept telling me throughout our sessions that I needed to have blind trust.

Then, on the other hand, I do believe that to keep my husband on the up and up (if you will) maybe I do need to schedule counseling with this therapist to make sure my husband continues to tell the truth.

Rethread: I had read a little about the Madonna complex to because I felt that my husband did put me on a pedestal as a good mom and wife but for some reason in the bedroom I was not the type of person that he wanted sex with. Also, I have debated with myself about maybe the extra weight that I have gained was a turn off to him eventhough he says that's not an issue to him.

If your husband is turning to porn and self-gratification to manage his feelings, it doesn't matter what you look like. You could be on the cover of SI's swimsuit issue, and your husband would look to fantasy to escape.

From my experience, having a husband that's an SA is hard to work through from the SO's perspective. My husband's SA was never about me. And it will never, ever be about me. It's about my husband choosing some very, very, very poor life coping skills. But, it did affect and hurt me, just the same.

And, no you shouldn't be trusting your husband right now. Blind trust is not a good thing. I believe that's something Dr. Harley does not believe in.

I know your counselor has only had one session to deal with the "new" info.

Does your husband get triggered by anything other than the computer? For some men, they do get triggered by the tv/and or movies that have anything over a G rating. Now, my husband didn't find this to be a trigger. I did, though, and my husband averts his eyes for my sake.

But, my husband would scan women (normal women clothed, walking down the street or doing what ever) routinely and use the scanning of women to intiate his acting out ritual.

So, I'm trying to say that eventually, simply abstaining from the computer may not be enough.

Does your husband have stashes anywhere? Flash drives, CDs, DVDs, anything portable? You may want to watch him physically destroy those. Throwing these things away isn't good enough, as they can get retrieved and used again.

inrecoverynow: I am glad you brought up the triggers. You know, I believe tv and movies are triggers for him to. He doesn't watch porn movies on the tv. But over the years, I've noticed that he gets what i call a glazed over look watching movies or tv shows that have sex scenes. And he without fails will stop and watch the music channels with vidoes that have dancing woman (the ones with almost no clothes on) or shows like the kardashians, and the playboy centerfold reality shows.

And he never averts his eyes when he watches the music videos or these types of shows. When he locks in on one of these channels, I have to ask him to turn the tv channel because I don't want to watch that and tell him I don't this is appropriate to watch with a kid in the house.

Now, he doesn't scan women when we are out in public. And he doesn't have any porn magazines stashed anywhere.

Yes, he does have flash drives. I haven't thought about having him get rid of these.

I am making up a list of things that I wanted to present to my husband and the counselor that to me will have me build my trust over time. I will add the destroying of flash drives, CD's etc to my list. If you all think of things that would be good to add to my EP list, I would appreciate it.

Thanks

So, your husband is saying that he doesn't scan women in public at all?

My husband was VERY good at hiding his addiction from me. We'd been together for over a decade, and he never once scanned/oogled/leered/turned his head towards another woman in my presence. He just did it when I wasn't around.

As for the tv, we don't bring in extended cable into the house. We have the 20 channel version, because I don't even want the kids to have a steady diet of sponge bob.

Your husband should be getting rid of every single thing that makes him trigger on his own, not because you ask him to.

If your husband is only doing this to appease you, you may not get the results you are looking for. Now, if your husband decides for himself that he doesn't want to put the effort into fixing himself, well, that's his choice to make, and you can't do anything about it.

Have you picked up the book "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend" Its a must read. Your job, is to figure out what you will and will not live with in your marriage. For example, will you live with slips? How man? What kind? What about relapse? What if his behavior escalates to physical cheating? What if he is just yanking your chain and does not intend to get getter.

I also thought your husband was supposed to make the list of EP's, not you..

Yes, I have read the book Boundaries. I will re-read it. And yes, I do need to figure out what I can and can't live with. I am just having a hard time right now to not let me emotions drive my choices. I want to give my husband a chance to deal with this and for us to work on his marriage. It is very, very early stages right now with only one session behind him after his full disclosure of his sex addiction. He is really working hard, I can tell.

I must have misread about who makes the list of EP's. I thought it was something that I needed to do. Also, my marriage counselor asked me to make a list of things that I wanted my husband to do to build my trust. If my husband needs to make out the list, then I will take that approach. So much to learn about the MB principles.

reg,

Just wondering how things are going?

Thanks Still Crazy!

I feel so confused. And I don�t know what to do right now. My husband is seeing our marriage counselor for about 3 individual counseling sessions.

I opted not to see the counselor for individual sessions for two reasons (1) I wanted the counselor and my husband to work on his porn use, masturbation, looking at other women on line and chatting with women online. (2) my insurance carrier told me that they want me to see a different counselor for any individual therapy. And not for me to use the same counselor for marriage counseling and individual therapy.

Yesterday, my husband told me that the counselor is asking him a lot of questions about me such as if I nag him a lot, does my job cause me to have a lot of stress? What things that I have done to contribute to the problems in our marriage? The counselor said to me and my husband that he believes that I have a part in this also. I don�t understand how I have a part in him looking at and masturbating with porn. Is there something that I am missing? I do feel that I may not be meeting my husband�s needs. But my husband has never identified any needs. He keeps saying that everything is being met which I don�t agree with him because I feel that if he doesn�t know his needs then how can he be sure that I am not meeting them.

And my husband also said that the counselor told him that he had never heard of an insurance requiring a different counselor for individual and marriage counseling.

I know it may not look good that I am not seeing our marriage counselor for individual therapy. I just want my husband to get the help he needs first. I have not said that I won�t do marriage counseling because I had hoped that after a few more individual sessions for my husband that we could start back with marriage counseling. The counselor�s plan is to see my husband for individual counseling for about 3 sessions. Then one individual counseling session for me. Then stat back with couples counseling.

Am I looking like I am pushing away or something? I am trying to be patient and supportive. And I am trying to abide by what my insurance company wants me to do also. But I feel that the counselor is interpreting the wrong things about me by the questions he is asking my husband. Or maybe I am just reading more into this. Also, I am confused because doesn�t my husband need more than 3 individual counseling sessions to address what he is going through.

The counselor could be trying to figure out what's triggering your husband.

My husband's acting out was triggered by not getting his emotional needs met.

My husband was an acting out sa before we were dating. My husband picked a poor coping strategy.

Now, I used to be verbally and emotionally abusive. It's a behavior I'm not proud of. After d-day, it became clear to me that if I was abusive, I wasn't meeting my husband's emotional needs. (I know, for MOST people that's a no-brainer. Up to that point, I thought non-physical abuse in a marriage was OK and acceptable because of my upbringing. So for me, this was quite a lightbulb moment.)

Absolutely my husband is responsible for his addictive behavior and recovery.

However, I had to do my part..I couldn't keep behaving in a manner that would trigger him and expect sobriety. If I kept being abusive, I could see where someday he may have to make the choice between his sobriety and dysfunctional relationship. I didn't want my behavior to force him to make such a choice. So, I had to change my dance steps.

You aren't responsible for your husband's behaviors. But, you are a part of a dysfunctional marriage.

I'm curious Inrecoverynow, what emotional needs were not met for your husband.

This is a question that the counselor has asked him many, many times. And he can't seem to determine his emotional needs.

Emotional Needs question for Me:

I have a question about emotional needs. When I took the questionnaire to determine my emotional need, my top need came out to be SF. I was wondering is it possible that this is not my true top emotional need because if my husband has been battling an addiction and was withholding intimacy and SF from me. I am just deprived.

I guess I don�t know why I still feel so unloved by my husband and he is working really hard to meet the needs that I have identified. But, my love bank still feels empty.

My husband and I haven't formally done the inventories yet..

If I can guess, I think my husband's top needs that weren't met by me were admiration, affection, and domestic support.

Frankly, I didn't respect my husband and I didn't see him as an equal partner in our marriage. I thought I was the superior person, the party that was always right. My husband was always wrong. I also didn't believe my husband's feelings mattered. And FWIW, I thought it was normal to have minimal emotional intimacy in a marriage.

I'm glad I know better now. I'm still working on DS..

My husband was in counseling and sober for a year before we could have deal with issues like emotional needs.

It takes a long time to work through sa. The timeline is similar to working through infidelity, as in 3-5 years. We're at the three year end. But, I think that's because my husband really worked his recovery and his addiction didn't involve physical cheating.

Your husband has been numbing himself so he doesn't feel a thing for a while, I'm presuming.(My husband had been acting out for almost 20 years. He spent 2/3rds of his life trying to numb himself so he wouldn't feel anything.) It's going to take him a while to get to the point where he can identify feelings, needs, etc. I don't believe learning to cope with feelings can be turned on and off like a light switch..

reg i don't know enough about ICs or MCs to answer your question, but it could also be that your H is hearing what he wants to hear and not what is really being said (if that makes any sense ).

Just keep going with your gut instincts, they usually do not prove you wrong.

Good luck!!!

Hello Everyone:

I started about 2 months ago in group therapy and individual counseling with a counselor certified in sex addiction and who works with partners of sex addicts.

Also, my husband is going to have an assessment with a different certified sex addiction therapist so he can start recovery efforts.

Here is my question:

At what point (when) do we start using the techniques for MB. My counselor told me to throw all of the MB techniques out the window because it will not work on my marriage right now because of my husband's issue with pornonography and for me working through recovery of his issues with pronography.

I see many of you who are married, have spouses that had addictions and are using the MB techniques. What do you recommend?

Thanks again everyone!

What your counselor may be telling you is that your spouse may not yet be capable yet of POJA, Rule of Protection, Rule of Honesty, if he's still active in his illness. Dr. Harley himself in the Q&As to the spouses of alcoholics and the article on Codependency explains with great insight why your spouse needs to get emotional sobriety before they're going to be able to pick up the MB Concepts and stop LBing you. Maybe your counselor is concerned you would get discouraged, getting closer to your spouse and getting to know him better when that's not safe yet. Falling deeper in love with him maybe isn't a good idea yet until you see if he is able to get some emotional sobriety.

All that said, I think some of the MB concepts are very healing for spouses of addicts, the same concepts you'll be focusing on in your own recovery, specifically not doing things you are not enthusiastic about, Rule of Protection, and Rule of Honesty, if you decide that's safe.

regitest, Dr. H started his career working in addiction recovery, and has amazing insight. Have you read his Q&As to the spouses of alcoholics and the article on Codependency lately?

Steve Harley will tell you that it is your DH's responsibility to ensure that you feel in love with him. To do that he has to meet your needs. Not "you have to suck it up and love him unconditionally". I think that is a fundamental misunderstanding that people have...they think it is your fault you don't feel in love with them when it is really their fault because they are not meeting your ENs. So if your DH rally wants you to feel confidece that he loves you then you need to share your EN questionnaire with him.