Hello Everyone:

I need to get others input again. My husband and I are in counseling because of no sex in our marriage.

Question: My husband says there is not a problem (medical, psychology or addiction). If this is true, I don't understand why we having so much trouble with sexual fullfilment which is really important to me. I am really confused and I don't know how to approach this. Can someone give me a little guidance?

Background:

My husband has over the past few years been watching porn and chatting online. The sex in our marriage for the past 3 years had gone nonexistant. And when I initiate it, he always turn me down. And prior to these 3 years, we had sex maybe 1-3 times per month. I have always talked with him about the frequency of sexual fullfilment in our marriage. He said it was because he didn't need it.

We started counseling in March of 2010 and are still in counseling. It took us to April 2010 for him to admit (after I showed him proof) that he was watching porn movies online and masturbating daily to it, sending emails to women online and requesting pictures from women online. So the counselor told him to stop looking at porn and chatting online and requesting nude pictures of women. My husband has so far not looked at any porn or done any chatting on line since then (I am going off of his word).

The counselor is convinced that my husband is not having a physicial affair.

So, the therapist wanted us to start having sex again regularly. We have been working on this. So far we have had sex about 5 times since we started counseling.

Also, he appears to have a hard time initiating sex but when we talk about it and the techniques the therapist suggests, he is not doing them. It is as if he doesn't hear any of the suggestions that the counselor is telling us. My husband says that he doesn't have any issues (medical, psychological or addictive). All of his medical test were fine. There is no sexual abuse from his past. However, he did have a alcoholic dad who was abusive to his mother. And his mother was neglectful to him and his siblings.

He can go weeks without touching me or inititating sex with me. He will only try to initiate after I discuss with him that we are not engaging in sex (this is a technicque the counselor asked us to try. If we go a week without sex and intimacy, I need to bring it up and see what has prevented us). My husband is afraid of us divorcing. He says doesn't want to loose me.

Again, I feel as if I don't know how to approach this in our session. If my husband says there is not a problem, then why are we having so much trouble with sexual fullfilment which is really important to me. I am really confused and I don't know how to approach this. Can someone give me a little guidance? Are there any questions that I need to ask?

registest,

First off i thought i would let you know that weekends are really slow around here.

Secondly your H most definitely was (and more than likely probably still is) having at the very least an EA (emotional affair) with these women who he received pictures from because they are meeting his EN for SF (sexual fulfillment) by his masturbation. And because of that IMHO it was/is a PA (physical affair).

And also i hate to tell you but your H will lie, lie, and lie some more to get his fix for this porn and these other women.

You need to snoop big time and verify his whereabouts on the computer and off, he needs to be like an open book to you and he most DEFINITELY needs to never contact any of these women or any others again for ever.

He needs to send a NC letter that you approve of to all of them so that they do not contact him either.

This sounds like you should also notify the moderators to move your post to "Surviving an Affair"

I am sorry you are going through this......

SC has given you some very good advice. Definitely be checking up on him. My DH does not look at porn or anything, but we have always had sort of a "reverse mismatch" with regard to SF too - me needing a lot and him not really needing it, so I can feel your pain. The weekends are slow, but there will be people around more as it gets closer to Monday. In the meantime, read some of the materials on here. One thing to remember -- your need for SF is a legitimate need that need not be contingent on your own perfection. SF is an integral part of marriage. I know for a long time I felt I was "weird" or that I needed to "earn" SF. That simply isn't true.

quick t/j luri, i see there is a is a cake beside your name. Does that mean a is in order?

end t/j

Yes! Thanks!

How old is your husband? Is he overweight? Did he have TESTOSTERONE levels checked? Is he, by chance, taking Propecia or something to keep his hair?

I know alot of people think they have been checked out 'medically' but often, these things are overlooked.

Hello everyone:

Thank you for your response.

Justfigureditout: My husband is in his midforties. Yes, he had his testosterone levels checked. And they were normal. He is not taking any medication now except for Viagra. Our marriage therapist told him to get Viagra because he believes my husband is having performance anxiety the reason why he has an aversion to sex.

Still_crazy: I had stopped snopping because I was just tired. I felt I was obsessed especially when he denies doing anything. So, I did take your advice and decided to snop today. And I discovered where he had searched this week for nude pictures. Also, he has went on some website where he could rate pictures of women.

I just don't know what to do. How can my husband and I get past this and build our marriage when he is lying about what is going on?

Thanks everyone again for your responses.

reg, why can't you initiate sex? Have you tried? Have you learned to initiate sex? If you initiate, what does he do?

By initiating I DO NOT MEAN LETTING HIM KNOW YOU HAVE NOT HAD SEX IN A WHILE...THAT IS A TURN OFF FOR A GUY. (I found out) There are 1000 ways you can learn to initiate sex. If you learn to initiate sex, and actually initiate sex three times a week, then this may solve part of your problem.

According to the OP, when she initiates he turns her down.

Bubbles is right in that the "how" of initiation is important. I have actually taken my cue from what I have heard women say. I don't spring it on him. I get snuggly, I flirt some, I "warn" him that I am wanting him. That way when bed time comes he has had time to think about it. It doesn't always work, and I am not as good about it as I should be - I confess "fear" gets the better of me at times. But using a slow warm up approach may work for your H.

Hi Bubbles: Yes, I do inititate sex. I inititate it all the time. When I inititate sex with my husband, he turns me down each and every time.

Let me add, this is why I decided to go to counseling. I was tired of inititating sex and getting rejected all the time. I felt that I was living for years in a role reversal where I pursued my husband and he never pursued me. We've been married about 9 years.

I went thru this and solved the problem with my husband.

1. Are you attractive (not overweight, etc)

2. How exactly do you initiate sex

3. How exactly does he turn you down

This will help us try and help you. You can solve this just like I did.

sounds like he is more clever and hiding that he is engaged in heavy porno along with Masterbation here....I would go look up the snooping threads over in the other forum here...surviving an affair....hook up computer monitor him (don't tell him) also his phone or PDA you can get all kinds of porno that way too...he is having sex....just not with you...it's not how you look...infact this kind of addiction has nothing to do with you it's all about him and the porn addiction.

Think logically here....if he was doing it before and still is never interested in sex with you he hasn't stopped the porno or masterbation...it's logical...he is lying to you & your counselor.

You need to catch him and prove it...expose it...and then get him to agree to transparency in your marriage...he is having affairs online chatting up these women requesting nude photos....I think you should click the button to notify the mods to move your thread to the other forum...people there are experts on this stuff and can help you.

Bubbles4U: Thanks I would love to hear about the things that you have tried. Also, I'll answer your questions: 1. I am attractive. And he says that he finds me attractive. I have gained weight. Also, I am trying to loose this. He says the extra pounds do not matter. I was concerned about this a lot. And I don't know if he is lying to not hurt my feelings 2. With initiating, at first, I would flirt, wink my eyes at him in the morning, rub his shoulders before bed, wore lingere alot to bed. Also, I had started gently rubbing him between his....(don't want to get graphic).... to let him know that I was ready. 3. He turns me down by ignoring me especially if I am in lingere, saying he is tired, or telling me not tonight and not interested.

So fire away.....I would love to know how I could ingitate better because I know I need improvement. Or find out if it is something that I am doing that is turning him off.
__________________________________________________
Gemstone: Thanks! I talked with him again today about his internet use. He assured me that he has not looked at any pictures of women. But, when I checked his search history I found where he specifically searched for nude pictures of.....
and the history where he went to vote online the nude pictures of women.

I printed all of these out. i don't know what else to do. He lied in my face and said he hasn't been looking online at other women's picture. I don't know if I need to show him the print screen shots of the search history or what. I feel as if I don't have a good way of monitoring his internet usage.

I just feel it is something wrong with me. That there is a need that I am not filling for him. How long do I fight for my marriage when my DH is still into his old habits? I told him I want to support him and help him but he has to be honest with me and put everything on the table.

Thanks everyone!

First have the sex talk.

You speak to him about sex, do not do this in or near the bedroom. After dinner sit down away from kids or whatever and talk to him about the frequency each of you prefers. He might like sex once a month. You might like sex every few days.

Once you determine the frequency, then compromise like having sex once a week. He has to agree to the compromise. Ask for his advice in how you will have sex once weekly, like let him pick the day the time, etc.

Then, you have to hold him to it. If he fails to do the agreed upon sex, then you have to do STEP 2, but try that first.

If you can get regular sex going again then you can graduate to a good sex life.

Exactly how is this advice in line with MB?

Is your husband in love with you? (Geez, I sound like Melody Lane! LOL)

If your husband IS in love with you, then you should probably POJA to come up with a solution that works for both of you, and if your husband cannot enthusiastically agree, then keep trying until you can find something that may work, and try it.

If your husband is NOT in love with you, then use the tools ofthe MB program to help you learn why he is NOT in love with you, such as the LB and EN questionairres. And use that information to more adequately fill his love bank to the point that he IS in love with you. Then POJA a solution that is adequate for both and that you both can enthusiastically agree to.

Am I missing something, vets?

I just reread a bit more. I personally doubt there is anything "wrong" with you. You are probably not perfect, and you are probably not meeting his EN in the way that would best create romantic love. But that doesn't make you uniquely "bad" or anything. Most of us have very little clue what our spouse's EN when we get here. And we really have not clue what kind of LBs we do!

I think the porn, lying and hiding are very problematic as well.

There's your side of the street, and his. You can't do much about his side of the street, except to ask him to clean it up and hope that he does, and protect yourself and your love bank with boundaries. What you can do is clean up your side of the street, and the folks here are very good at getting us started on that path. We can't do anything about him or his behavior, because he is not here.

Think, what i said was POJA. You cannot understand it since I did not use words like POJA that you can understand. Look deeper and you will see the POJA and what worked for myself in my marriage. When the poster tries the idea, and if it succeeds, then great, she will thank me. If it fails then I have more, much more.

Think, maybe you are right I better spell it out.

OH (openness and honesty) Sharing about sex and how much each of you want to have sex...Something you may never have shared in a nice way...before.

EN (Emotional Needs) Talk together about sex, an emotional need.

POJA (Policy of Joint Agreement) Talk together about a nice compromise so both spouses are happy. Talk to each other about how to accomplish this comrpromise.

A strict POJA says that if one person does not want sex and one does want it then no one gets it., In this case we do not want to use the strict POJA.

Based on what I have learned here, there is no such thing as a "strict" POJA. The POJA is the "opposite" of compromise. The whole thing that makes POJA work is that we do not require our spouse to do ANYTHING which they cannot do enthusiastically, therefore preventing massdive love bank withdrawls. Additionally, we are protecting ourselves from massive love bank withdralws that come from the resentment that builds up from having to sacrifice.

Compromise is mutual sacrifice and bound to result in resentment and loss of romantic love. This is EXACTLY what POJA is designed to prevent, and it is one of the many aspects of Marriage Builders that is so different than what people get in traditional marriage counseling.

Yes, if both spouses cannot come to an agreement using POJA, that means they do nothing until they DO come to enthusiastic agreement.

Often if they can't come to enthusiastic agreement, it is because there are deeper problems. And in this case, it's pretty obvious that there are some deeper issues which need to be adressed, on the part of both parties. Sadly, only one party is here, so we can only work with her side of it.

I agree with the other stuff you said about O&H, talking about EN, etc. But compromise, especially in a situation in which there is not a large reserve of romantic love in the 'ole love bank, is extremely dangerous to marriages and is not the MB approach, in my opinion.

Then again, I'm still rather new around here, so maybe a long-timer could set me straight.

The POJA is not, "Avoid doing anything without enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse." The word "never" is what makes the POJA the POJA.

Registest, have you read through all the basic concepts? If so, where do you believe that YOU are falling short?

registest,

I really hope that you decide to click the "notify" button and have you thread moved to "Surviving an Affair" because that is most certainly what you are going through.

The actions of your husband are in no way shape or form YOUR fault and there is is NOTHING wrong with you. His actions are solely on him and for him to take ownership of.

He is "cheating" on you every single solitary time he gets on that computer and looks at porn, he is satisfying his need for SF through other women.

I think Bubbles has brought out a "blind spot" to SF and POJA that no one really directly speaks to. When SF is being POJA'd over and over and over until everyone is happy, guess what is NOT happening? SF. We are essenitally saying sacrifice and do without until your spouse is enthusiastic. Now, if we were POJA-ing housework, we could theroetically hire a short term maid to keep the clutter from burying us. We could go eat lunch with a friend every once in awhile to prevent conversation backup. But with SF, putting it on hold until we have finished negotiaing everything means....we got nothing. That is a dilemma. Not one that most people want to take six month of perfection to fix because they are ALREADY desperate. I mean, if my arm is hainging by a sinew, and the nurse keeps saying, "You just need some bactine...you just need some bactine..." at some point that arms is going down her throat - ha ha.

Okay, If you want an "long-timer" to set you straight, I will do so. You are absolutely correct in your understanding of the application of the POJA.

I would place one of those moving icons here with their clapping hands, but I haven't figured out how, yet.

So much good information....Thank you everyone...

Let me answer some of the questions that have been asked:
1. Is my husband in love with me? He tells me he is. In counseling he cries because he doesn't want to loose me.
However, it concerns me because he wrote in counseling that his #1 need is for me to feel confidence that he loves me and is devoted to me. Then his 2nd need is conversation which we do a lot of and he says he enjoys it.
2. Where am I falling.....I think I am not meeting his emotional needs. And this is what hurts me so much inside. And besides the emotional needs that i need at the start of this post, he says that it is nothing that I am not doing. He says it is him.

So, I am torn. I can't determine if this is porn addiction or if his emotional needs are not being meet or both. When I do the concepts for MB, they don't seem to work. And I guess this is where I am feeling helpless. Then as I was reading over some of the threads and Dr. Harley's articles, I see over and over again that if a person has an addiction then the MB techniques will not work. Am I reading this wrong?

Also, I am wondering if we are using the wrong approaches if he indeed has an addiction. I believe he does but our marriage counselor thinks he should be able to just stop.

Thanks everyone.

Heya reg - I thought I'd chime in a few thoughts.


This is not an appropriate EN in the strict MB sense of the term. You will only know that he loves you if he shows you love, and fills your LB. He is wanting YOU to be responsible for the balance of his LB and it just doesn't work that way. He is trashing your love every time he uses porn or rejects you sexually in favor of porn. Every time he has a sexual experience that doesn't include you, you love him less. That is exactly how Love Busters work. He wants to Love Bust you with out draining your Love Bank - he wants you to love him despite acting in a way that proves his disregard and love for you - and placing the onus on you to maintain your love for him. Sorry that's cake eating. It doesn't work that way.

He needs to take responsibility for the fact that when he uses porn and masturbates, he is killing your love for him. You do not have control over that. He does.

You will feel confident in his love for you when you see action from him that demonstrates his love from you in a way you understand (Meeting your EN).

Based on what you've written here, he could have an addiction. I say this because if he wanted to stop he would, unless he's addicted. If he weren't an addict your counselor should be right. However, he is still looking, hiding it and lying to your face. MB will NOT work on an addict. You have to break the addiction first. Since MB is NOT working for you I'd lean towards an addiction.

However, there are several reasons for why what he's doing may not be an addiction, particularly based on his 'no. 1 EN'. He may not believe that he is responsible for how you feel about him. He may be saying he'll quit just to get you off his back and really have no intention or desire to stop the porn use. The counseling may all be a farce of appeasement. Really it is hard to say.

It may be beneficial to confront him with this recent porn use and ask him to talk with a CSAT (Certified Sex Addiction Therapist) to determine if he is actually addicted. Find one here.

Before any progress is to be made, you need to at least rule out the possibility of an addiction.

Any addictive or compulsive behavior inevitably becomes a lonely substitute for good relationship behavior. Compulsive solo recreation or exercise, being blotto on drugs or alcohol, hormonal imbalances - they all put people into a fog, and isolate them from conversation, RC and UA time, affection, family time and SF.

Trying to untangle and measure what part of the problem is due to the compulsive behavior and what is due to the people around them is futile. Too complex. Too much fog. The compulsive behavior has to be stopped to clear the system, simplify things, and let everyone see clearly.

Hello:

Retread: I thank you for the explanation about the fog that isolates the addicted person from conversation, RC, UA time, affection, family time and SF. I had wondered about if my DH was in a fog because he can not work with me on all of the assignments that the counselor has given us. He keeps telling me that he is confused and doesn't know what to do.

And thanks again everyone. I think I want to make sure that my DH's addiction is ruled out. I told my husband that I was concerned about his porn activities. And ask him to contact our counselor to rule out a sexual addiction. My DH got mad with me and told me that he was tired of my endless speculations and accusations. I was crushed.

Then, I told him that I stumbled across recent searches and websites that he visited that were porn material and sites to vote on hot women's pictures.

He told me that he was sorry. And asked what he could do. I told him to call our marriage counselor like I had asked in the first place. Our mc wants to meet with us separately. Right now, I don't know if I should go separately.

I am concerned about a counselor whose answer to addiction is to just stop. What I read is him getting mad at you, you showing him proof, and him being "sorry." I think he needs some bigger guns than "just stop it."

How would you feel about getting a different counselor, say, Steve Harley? I know they are not covered by insurance, but from what I've seen here, he doesn not waste people's time and is good use of the money.

Also, traditional counselors, even marriage counselors, have a pathetic success rate when it comes to saving marriages.

The fact that the counselor wants to see you separately would concern me for some reason.

And the fact that the counselor thinks the compulsive behavior can just be stopped on sheer will power would also bother me, especially if your husband willingly admits that he has an addiction and can't stop. He's pretty much asking for help, and she is saying that he doesn't need it. That seems weird, especially coming from a professional.

You said your husband was crying in the session sayng that he didn't want to lose you.

That is not at all the same thing as being in love with you. That, in my opinion, is wanting to keep the status quo so that he doesn't have to face the consequences of his actions.

lurioosi2: What are the bigger guns that you think are needed?

thinkinitthru66: Yes, I had wanted to use Steve Harley at first. But, then I changed my mind because I thought a counselor where my husband and I could sit face to face would be better. I guess I needed to see his body language.

Also, let me clarify something. My husband has never admitted that he has or had a compulsive behavior. Even when I talk with him about his activities, all he says is I'm sorry. And even in counseling, he has never said, yes, I have a problem. And this is what has concerned me the most about my husband. I think he is in denial.

And I can speculate why the counselor wants to see us separately, which is what our MC did at the beginning when he started counseling us. He wanted to get each of our prespective. So when my husband told me that our counselor wanted to meet with us separately tis week, the red flag that went up in my mind was my husband did not fully tell him the things that he is doing. It is usually me filling in the rest of the puzzle. And I don't like doing it. I feel like the villain when all I want to do is for my husband to get help. But I know that he has to want to help himself.

So I am having a hard time determining if he really wants to fight this addiction. By his actions, I am thinking that he doesn't. But then I don't know the behaviors of a person who is addicted. I guess that where i need help to make sure that I am making the best decisions in this situation. I love my husband and I want us to work through this. But if he is not willing, how can we?

Sometimes by changing our own behaviors and attitudes, others around us are affected in a positive way. Sometimes they for the first time are left to face the consequences of their actions, and decide to do something other than apologize.

Luri, I don't think there is a blind spot to the POJA with regard to SF. If it means my EN does not get met because my spouse chooses not to do it because he cannot do it enthusiastically, and we can't come up with a solution together, then the ball is in my court because I can't change him. That is why Harley wrote "When To Call It Quits." I personally would not want to have sex with someone who did not want to be having sex enthusiastically. In that case, it is "just sex" and not really SF for either of us anyway.

I know in my head you are right, think. But sometimes my emotions just go....yeah, the SF person goes without....again. It's whiny, I know.

When I said big guns, I guess I meant a counselor who might be more experienced in the porn stuff and can spot denial and tap dancing better. Someone that won't oversimplify or let your H off the hook.

This counselor is supposed to have experience with the porn stuff and sex addictions. He is not certified though.

In fact I just got the phone with the counselor. I told him that I didn't want to see him individually this week. I wanted him to talk with husband.

I am not trying to be difficult but the counselor is making me feel this is a two way street. And my husband is not sharing with him all the things that he is doing. So I feel that my counselor is at a disadvantage. And he is working on the wrong thing. My counselor asked me to see him separately this week. I told him no. He says he is trying to make light of this situation but there are individual issues on both sides that is making this problem bigger. I don't see how it is both of us right now. What am I missing?

And he thinks that I was being obsessive because I was snopping and found were my husband had been on sites with porn.... But he told me that when I feel something is not right that I could check the computer and my husband email.

Yes, I know my emotions are all over the place. I don't know what to do. I am trying to hang in there. But maybe I am being to supportive. I feel like my husband is taking advantage of my support.

And let add, he said that my husband was upset when called him (the marriage counselor). I told the MC that I about what I found on the computer, and they when I asked my husband about it he lied. Then I told the MC that when my husband asked what can he do after he said he was sorry. I said to my husband to call and ask the MC what he should do. And ask if he could evaluate him for a sex addiction.

When i said the word sex addiction to my MC he said that is strong accusations and that he thinks my husband has an impulsive problem which is different from a sex addiction.

[b]and we can't come up with a solution together, then the ball is in my court because I can't change him.[/b]

This is a very important first step before even thinking about anything else. This is what I was saying but Think has a beef against me and simply wants to spend her time refuting different things I say and the way i say them...and Think wasting her time on this on this thread is not helpful for this poster.

Different viewpoints are needed to help with this particular problem. AS you can see there are very very diverse pieces of advice and views presented here in this thread. None are less than or worse than any other that has been presented.

Thanks everyone. Yes, everyone has given me good advice and feedback.

Does anyone know of books or any threads on here where I can create some lists of things that I can discuss with my husband to put into place to help me to move on to recovery. I need to set my boundaries and I don't know how because I am not knowledgeable with the sexual addiction. As I need to learn so I can do things that will help me recover and build my trust. For instance, do I install filters on our computers to block the porn sites. Those types of things.

I hope I am making sense with question. If not, let me know.

Don't waste your $ on books, they only give meaning to the "complainer". My W use to say it was my problem, she was fine with the frequency etc.

Bubbles hooked me up, now my life is great! I don't think my wife actually believed that arguements would be less, and shorter. They are! Things have been wonderful thanks to Ourhouse, L2, and Bubbles! Look at how often I haven't been on here and that's when things did a U turn!

Bubs, I don't have a beef against you. I spent a lot of time on the POJA thread last week, so it was all very fresh in my head, and since it is slow on the weekend, I shared. I'll let the OP decide whether or not what I said was helpful. But since this site is about teaching the MB principles, I try not to stray from them too much in my posts to other people. MB works if it is used the way Harley teaches it. Some of the tools MAY work by themselves, but all of these things work best when they are not cherry-picked. Not that I have as much experience with this stuff as folks like Melody Lane and so many others.

Frankly, I too sometimes get frustrated with the black and white, all or nothing approach some people take with MB. Then I look at the years of marriage recovery they have.

I haven't read your whole thread. I'm just responding to this post.

Have you considered calling Dr. Harley?

My husband is a recovering SA. He acted out with porn and compulsive self-gratification. My husband read books by Patrick Carnes and worked through the workbook with a CSAT. There are also 12-step groups for you and your husband, if you feel that would interest you.

We have a blocker on the computer, but that was at my husband's CSAT's request. Mind you, the blocker was to keep my husband off of porn in the beginning, not a tool for me to check up on him. While not wildly popular, I don't actually know much about my husband's addiction or his recovery. I preferred to know less rather than more because my goal was to get to a healthy marriage. I felt for me, details did nothing to change the issue. My husband is still a recovering addict.

You also may want to consider reading the book "Boundaries" by cloud and townsend.

You may consider looking at wayward's lists of EP..My husband was very good at the transparency thing, accounting for his time and calling me throughout the day. Our marital recovery did look much like that of recovery after an affair.

Please be aware that you may be looking at a long process, 3-5 years, most likely. We are at the 3 year end. Things really started to fall into place about the 18 month mark. I began to trust him (healthily) again at that point.

Thanks inrecovery:

Can someone give me the link to the thread that you mentioned for wayward's lists of EP. I couldn't find it when I performed a search.

Thanks!

This is from SouthernPilgrim's thread. She just started posting here too, and she is also dealing with Porn Addiction in her marriage. You may want to view her thread, reach out to each other. It's helpful to have others who have or are walking in our shoes a bit.

Sounds like he has an emotional need for Admiration. The problem is women have trouble admiring a man who is depleting his balance in their Love Bank. If he will learn to meet her emotional needs well, regularly, dependably, she will probably naturally admire him for that!

The Admiration chapter in His Needs, Her Needs has more information about this scenario.

Nice insight Markos!

Markos: I agree with you on the admiration. I thought about admiration being a top EN for him recently. I know this has to be an area that I have not been falling through with because I feel so much resentment and have been for a long time. And I had started forcing myself to do things to feels his needs for Admiration. But it is hard for me to keep up.

Do you all think this is something that I should work on doing more even though we are starting to work on ruling out the sexual addiction issue.

I am trying to put the pieces together in regards to all of the MB concepts. I did read the admiration chapter in the His Needs, Her Needs book. I will go back and re-read again. Also, are there any threads on here that i can get some tips from. I am an examples type person. When I can see others putting these things into action, it helps me define what I need to put into action.

Thanks!

As far as admiration goes, I would try to admire him for the things that are admirable. In other words, if he is a good provider, helps around the house, gives you compliments, has a talent, then talking about these is good. I would not try to put any kind of positive spin on things he does that are damaging. I have fallen into that trap before - trying so hard to be a cheerleader I cheered for things I really didn't feel cheerful about. I at one point made a list of things that I could unabashadly appreciate about DH and tried to mention one or more every day if I could. Then if DH broached a subject that might be negative (in your H's case, the porn use) I could be very honest with him, knowing I had also built him up.

It is a hard tightrope to walk sometimes, wanting to be positive or meet EN's without ignoring or condoning things that MUST change.

With regard to admiration (which is probably my H's top EN too), I've found that it is helpful to make a running "gratitude list" of all the things about him that I'm thankful for. Like Luri said, I don't stretch it. But if I'm open and willing to drop the resentment for even a short while I'm able to come up with plenty of things. And then the admiration comes more easily.

You also ask, "Do you all think this is something that I should work on doing more even though we are starting to work on ruling out the sexual addiction issue."

Here is my take on that. MB provides a roadmap for the basic responsibilities of marriage: Care (through meeting EN), Protection (through avoiding LB), Time (through 15-20 hours of Undivided Attention), Honesty (through the Policy of Radical Honesty), and Unity (through the Policy of Joint Agreement). I did not take a vow that said I promise to do these things AS LONG AS THEY ARE DONE FOR ME. I made the vow only with an understanding and expectation that they be done. Because my vow was an unconditional vow, I will follow the roadmap to the best of my ability until such time as God directs me otherwise. I'm not doing it as much for him as I am for me. It is possible that in time I will be doing it for him, but that is not really in my control, because that would involve me feeling Romantic Love, which is something that is his to create by providing care, protection, time, honesty and unity.

I'm not sure if I missed it or not but has the husband said what his frequency in watching porn is? I read a lot on these boards where a husband is looking at porn and he's suddenly labeled as having a sexual addiction. I did read that he had porn sites visited on his computer. But the porn site might have been visited a month earlier and not since or he hits a site every other week or etc. Then the next thing I often read is that since the husband has been watching porn, he prob. wants some off-the-wall, unethical, crazy, etc sex and cannot fathom having sex without some deviant act by his wife. I�m not trying to minimize the feelings of the spouse towards porn. I�m just wondering if the husband actually might have an addiction or occasionally watches porn.

I'm not saying that watching porn is something his wife doesn't want him doing. That's a different issue. Some wives care if their husband watches porn, some don't. Maybe he does have a porn addiction; maybe he does have a sex addiction. I don't know. He might be weeping and saying he does because he thinks that's what his wife wants to hear.

Has the OP asked why he likes to watch porn? How often he watches porn? Is there something missing in the sex that he's seeing in the porn that he likes? And is this asked in a nonjudgmental manner?

I think watching porn, at any level, affects a relationship, even if in subtle ways. Sex may drop off due to porn watching. Watching porn may also affect the way a man approaches or wants sex and these actions turn the wife off from sex. Why? Because what is depicted in porn is not what women want in a sexual relationship but rather what men think women want, or how men think women should behave. Porn is a world of male fantasy.

I have felt there were some odd things about my H's approach to sex from the very earliest days of our relationship. I now know he has been using porn for most of his life, and the use just grows and grows as access becomes easier. Now I believe that there is a relationship between his 'ways of sex' and porn.

He approaches me for sex in ways that I don't like and then tells me I am cold when I don't respond. His approach is to stick his hands in my pants (as an example). Unlike his porn chicks, I don't turn on instantly, I'm not "Hot and Ready", so guess what, that means something is wrong with me in his world, I'm cold and frigid. But guess what he sees in porn, women who are always "Hot and Ready" so this is his norm.

He has never been able to orgasm based on feeling alone. He can only orgasm if he can see what is happening (use your imagination). This has always bothered me but I let it go for many, many years. Now I think this is porn based. He masturbates watching people have some form of intercourse and needs that visual stimulation to orgasm. What this means to me is that I am nothing more than a masturbatory tool. This also means that we never orgasm together.

My point, porn affects relationships whether or not there is an addiction. Ending porn use should not be a requirement only if addiction is involved because at any level of use, the relationship is affected. The issue is not just addiction, but the use of porn. Porn is not mutual SF and this is what SF is meant to be, mutual. SF is not just about one partner.

Not meant to be a T/J, just arguments for ending porn use, period.

The way I would define addiction is this:

An activity that I want to stop, but can't; or an activity I want to stop, and can, but not for any extended length of time; or an activity that I don't want to stop but that interferes with my ability to live a healthy life.

Kind of a broad definition.

My husband says he has an addiction to porn. He has labelled himself that way, not me. I frankly have no idea. I do know that he is not able to stop on his own, and when he has tried, that he becomes a miserable SOB. I do know that his looking at porn (I think it's at least once a day) seems to be a substitute for real emotional and spiritual intimacy, even though we do have regular sexual intimacy. His problem is his problem; I am honored that he was honest with me, but I leave it up to him to get help. I stay out of it. I do not let it be a justification for my not doing my part of MB. However, I also know that if after practicing MB for quite some time I do not see any imporvement in the areas of spiritual and emotional intimacy from him, then I may change course. It's in the future, I really can't know beyond today

I agree with you that porn is a world of fantasy. However, it�s not just a male fantasy. There are quite a few women viewing porn, not just men. While my wife doesn�t watch porn by herself, on occasion she will suggest we watch it together. And this is not too uncommon. So, sure, if the porn is an issue, then by all means cut it off. However, not everyone that watches porn brings this into their relationship/marriage.

And while some people might get wrapped up into watching porn and let it impact their relationship, I would assume most men view porn for the purpose of a quick release and nothing else. I have quite a few male friends and having joked and discussed this, we all realize that what we see in porn is exactly that-porn and in now way is indicative of the way real sex or love making happens. For *most* guys, porn becomes the �I haven�t had sex in a few days, I need a quick release� outlet.

It seems your husband has unrealistic expectations of what turns you on. My wife would be the same way if I suddenly stuck my hands down her pants out of the blue. I know that it would get me no where unless she just happened to be in the mood for quickee. However, she is very clear and assertive when this is her need. And while most men (and most men that watch porn) would prob. like their wife to get that turned on on occasion that quickly, most of us enjoy the pursuing and seducing of our wife and the long lasting making out and leading up to sex.

When you say that he can only orgasm from seeing what is going on, does this mean he has to watch other people having sex while having sex with you to orgasm or does this mean he likes to see the act of sex? I ask this because men to be visual in nature and like to watch. As an example, I don�t like full on lights in the bedroom but I do like candle light or some soft light that casts a very low glow.

Porn is usually one of those things that people either like or they are against. Some women (and I would assume men) think that watching porn is akin to having an affair or being disrespectful. Some women do not care if their men watch porn. My wife has no idea why women get offended when men watch porn. On the other side of the coin, we have a couple friend whose wife would practically leave him if she caught him watching porn because she views it as he�s cheating on her in his mind and will surely cheat on her physically too eventually. But they have a lot of other issues too.

I look at porn like gambling, watching TV, playing video games, drinking, etc. It can be taken overboard and negatively impact a persons life. However, it doesn�t always and to most people it�s an every once in awhile thing.

Thanks for the thoughts around the porn. kilted_thrower: from what I can tell, and I don't know the extent because he hasn't admitted to me or our counselor anything. So here is what I know. I don't think he looks at porn movies on the internet often. What I am seeing is, he is on a daily basis visiting website and dating website, asking women to send him their nude pictures. He had gotten so bad before I confronted him that he would log onto the computer infront of me (our computer is in the living room) and when I happen to glance over at him he has on the computer screen pictures from women. This is when I said enough was enough and confronted him.

Pretty much, every day in the evenings he gets on the computer. So there was no family time, and no alone time for us because he was on the computer.

Then on the weekends he would get on the computer pretty much all day while my daughter and I were outside having family time. For almost 3 years, he shut me and his child out of his life. And during these 3 years, he never had sex. He never approached me for sex and when I approached him he turned me down.

So, I am not saying that he has an addiction. I only asked that he talk to the therapist to screen him because something is going on. If it is not an addiction, then at least that is ruled out.

So bascially no it is not a sporadic porn use. He was looking at nude pictures and communicating with women on dating sites on a daily basis when he was at home. And I determine this when I started checking his emails because he never deleted anything. For the past years, all of the emails he recieved from women, the pictures and the dating sites were kept in his email in and outbox.

Then I would say he has a problem. It's definately a problem when he's neglecting his family and turning down sex with his wife due to porn and wanting to see other women naked.

Also, let me add a little more information. During our first two weeks of counseling about 3 months ago, the counselor asked us to make sure that we have each other passwords and can access our email accounts at any time. My husband says we already have access to email accounts and that I could view it anytime I wanted to. He said he just had the one.

One day, he asked me if I would go onto this website and rate a book that he had posted to it. He does writing in is spare time as a hobby. I went on this website. But on our computer it took me to his home page on the website instead of the link to where I could vote on the book. When I got on the website through the link he gave me, it took me to his outbox where he had sent some girl on that emailed him about do you want to see my pictures.........an email address that is attached to our email account but he hasn't used in the past.

I checked the email address (i had the password because both of our email accounts have the same password). When I checked it, I saw recent and past activities of a lot of porn sites that he was registered on, emails that he recently sent to other women requesting pictures and websites where he voted on pictures labeld hot women. And the emails and the web votes on the nude pictures were done in the past few days.

Okay, I'll admit up front I have problems with the idea that porn is okay, however, even if I didn't, there is a VAST difference between "admiring" the occasional stranger on a porn site and contacting actual women asking for pictures and such. To me, that is a whole other problem. I'm sorry about this, reg.

My husband is attending counseling today alone. The think I mentioned in an earlier post that the therapist wanted to meet with me separately also. But, I told the therapist I didn't want to meet with him alone. I asked both my husband and the therapist to focus on my husband and see if there is an addiction problem first because we have went down that path in our marriage counseling.

I realize that addiction is a strong word and it isn't something that I can say for sure it is. I asked my husband to tell the therapist everything and not half truths but the whole truth even if it is shameful because all I want is for him to receive the best help if there is an addiciton problem.

You guys rock! Just telling my story here and hearing others stories and how each of you are dealing with them has been a source of strength for me.

Absolutely. Contacting another woman is completely crossing what is acceptible and not.

Contacting a strange woman who posts pictures of herself on the Internet is way out of bounds.

Why?

You are part of the problem AND Process. Meeting separately could be beneficial, in that things which you bring up might be easier for him to talk about without you being there. It also helps to keep the 'other' from going off on tangents and lying, because they know that the spouse will be in in a couple of days, and can set the record straight.

I think separate counseling could be good, IMO.

So you say he is contacting women on the net and sharing naked pictures, etc? Does he also go "live" and do online live sex where both masturbate together online? There are sites for this which is sickening to me.

If your husband is doing this, it is at the level of "affairs" or worse.

Nothing I can say about "how to get more sex in marriage" will help since this is a deeper and bigger problem.

How can he do this when he is MARRIED? Have you asked him to quit this, all of this?

Wow, you got a very very difficult problem, there, girl.

[emphasis mine]
Reg,

I agree completely with the above. What your husband is doing is far, far beyond getting an occasional 'thrill'. He is effectively either already HAVING AN AFFAIR or TRYING TO START AN AFFAIR.

So many people, both WSs & BSs, have a mistaken notion of what actually constitutes an affair/infidelity. If you asked most people on the street at random, they would say something like �an affair is when a married person has sex outside of their marriage�. This INCORRECT (in the sense that the definition is FAR too restrictive).

Outside of the rare �one night stand with a perfect stranger� situation, infidelity has taken place LONG BEFORE the individuals first have intercourse. It has taken place in fact LONG BEFORE the individuals engage in any romantic physical contact (kissing, hand-holding, embraces, etc). The physical activities, with actual sex being only the most obvious and incontrovertible of them, are merely the INEVITABLE MANIFESTATIONS OF A PRE-EXISTING INAPPROPRIATE, �BOUNDARY-CROSSING� EMOTIONAL/SOCIAL RELATIONSHIP OR CONNECTION between the affair-partners.

All EAs eventually become PAs if they continue long enough. And many, many EAs begin and are continued electronically these days. What constitutes an emotional-affair (i.e. an inappropriate but (as of yet) non-sexual extra-marital relationship) ??? Here are some clues (I�m leaving out uncommon homosexual affairs here):

1. If a married person is doing or saying ANYTHING with/to another member of opposite gender that he/she wouldn�t do or say with their spouse standing right next to them, then he/she is �over the line� and having an EA.

2. If a married person is initiating, maintaining, propagating, or continuing a relationship/connection with another member of opposite gender via SECRECY AND/OR DECEPTION FROM HIS/HER SPOUSE, then he/she is �over the line� and having an EA.

In other words, most cheating spouses are unfaithful via their words, their heart, their mind, their intent, their untruthfulness, and their body language LONG BEFORE they become frankly so with their private parts.

Yes, I know some couples use porn as a sex-tool and some people view it occasionally as an arousal mechanism (good or bad, right or wrong�I�ll leave that to the reader to decide for themselves). But, your husband is beyond that and beyond any possible �innocent� or �harmless� diversion. He is ACTIVELY ENGAGING AND SOLICITING AND CONTACTING OTHER WOMEN WITHOUT YOUR PRE-KNOWLEDGE & PRE-APPROVAL. He is seeking an affair, at the very least, and it is only a matter of time until he finds a willing female reciprocator (assuming he hasn�t already w/o your knowledge). His INTENT here has been to achieve SF, either physical or visual, with another woman/women. He is being unfaithful and completely inappropriate � I doubt your marital-sex-life (and emotional connection) with him can be much improved as long as he is getting this EN of his met on the outside this way.

reg,
You have gotten a lot of good advice from the MB viewpoint, all of it essentially the same, just coming at from different angles.

Just being another layman, I want to encourage you to talk with your marriage counselor alone. Here's why:

This is not all your husband's problem. Dr. Harley or any other good counselor is going to want to talk with husband and wife separately, to get their view of reality, and what each thinks is the problem. I doubt your husband told the counselor any of his interests in pornography, certainly not the extent of what you are describing.

Secondly, your husband may not be getting his emotional needs met through this fantasy life, and that is what it is. He is certainly trying, and he is refusing to have a normal relationship with you, which sounds like a classic Madonna-W___e complex, where the man thinks of sexual relations as wrong, something good women don't do; so he cannot do them with his wife, but seeks out women who are bad, whom he does not respect. Isn't that what most pornography is: disrespectful using of one person by another in an exaggerated display of unequal power?

I am not trying to play psychiatrist, just telling you why you should be talking about this to the same one who is listening to your husband.

I also think you should talk to the counselor, mainly because it doesn't sound like this guy is going to hear the truth unless YOU tell it to him.

Hi everyone:

My husband had his session alone with the marriage counselor yesterday. My husband wrote out all the activities that he has been engaged in. And he told the therapist that he has been deceptive and lied throughout all the counseling sessions that we've had. So, the counselor wants to see him for more individual sessions. Also, the counselor said that he is not to have access to the computer at home for 6 months.

I agree that I do need individual counseling but I was thinking about using another counseling for that. Over the last few months, I've felt so beat up (figuratively) in counseling because my husband had been lying and the counselor believed him. Each time I would say in counseling in front of them both, that my hsuband was being dishonest, the counselor said that I had unresolved issues that were relating to my childhood.

I am really confused right now. I don't know if I can trust my husband. And the counselor kept telling me throughout our sessions that I needed to have blind trust.

Then, on the other hand, I do believe that to keep my husband on the up and up (if you will) maybe I do need to schedule counseling with this therapist to make sure my husband continues to tell the truth.

Rethread: I had read a little about the Madonna complex to because I felt that my husband did put me on a pedestal as a good mom and wife but for some reason in the bedroom I was not the type of person that he wanted sex with. Also, I have debated with myself about maybe the extra weight that I have gained was a turn off to him eventhough he says that's not an issue to him.

If your husband is turning to porn and self-gratification to manage his feelings, it doesn't matter what you look like. You could be on the cover of SI's swimsuit issue, and your husband would look to fantasy to escape.

From my experience, having a husband that's an SA is hard to work through from the SO's perspective. My husband's SA was never about me. And it will never, ever be about me. It's about my husband choosing some very, very, very poor life coping skills. But, it did affect and hurt me, just the same.

And, no you shouldn't be trusting your husband right now. Blind trust is not a good thing. I believe that's something Dr. Harley does not believe in.

I know your counselor has only had one session to deal with the "new" info.

Does your husband get triggered by anything other than the computer? For some men, they do get triggered by the tv/and or movies that have anything over a G rating. Now, my husband didn't find this to be a trigger. I did, though, and my husband averts his eyes for my sake.

But, my husband would scan women (normal women clothed, walking down the street or doing what ever) routinely and use the scanning of women to intiate his acting out ritual.

So, I'm trying to say that eventually, simply abstaining from the computer may not be enough.

Does your husband have stashes anywhere? Flash drives, CDs, DVDs, anything portable? You may want to watch him physically destroy those. Throwing these things away isn't good enough, as they can get retrieved and used again.

inrecoverynow: I am glad you brought up the triggers. You know, I believe tv and movies are triggers for him to. He doesn't watch porn movies on the tv. But over the years, I've noticed that he gets what i call a glazed over look watching movies or tv shows that have sex scenes. And he without fails will stop and watch the music channels with vidoes that have dancing woman (the ones with almost no clothes on) or shows like the kardashians, and the playboy centerfold reality shows.

And he never averts his eyes when he watches the music videos or these types of shows. When he locks in on one of these channels, I have to ask him to turn the tv channel because I don't want to watch that and tell him I don't this is appropriate to watch with a kid in the house.

Now, he doesn't scan women when we are out in public. And he doesn't have any porn magazines stashed anywhere.

Yes, he does have flash drives. I haven't thought about having him get rid of these.

I am making up a list of things that I wanted to present to my husband and the counselor that to me will have me build my trust over time. I will add the destroying of flash drives, CD's etc to my list. If you all think of things that would be good to add to my EP list, I would appreciate it.

Thanks

So, your husband is saying that he doesn't scan women in public at all?

My husband was VERY good at hiding his addiction from me. We'd been together for over a decade, and he never once scanned/oogled/leered/turned his head towards another woman in my presence. He just did it when I wasn't around.

As for the tv, we don't bring in extended cable into the house. We have the 20 channel version, because I don't even want the kids to have a steady diet of sponge bob.

Your husband should be getting rid of every single thing that makes him trigger on his own, not because you ask him to.

If your husband is only doing this to appease you, you may not get the results you are looking for. Now, if your husband decides for himself that he doesn't want to put the effort into fixing himself, well, that's his choice to make, and you can't do anything about it.

Have you picked up the book "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend" Its a must read. Your job, is to figure out what you will and will not live with in your marriage. For example, will you live with slips? How man? What kind? What about relapse? What if his behavior escalates to physical cheating? What if he is just yanking your chain and does not intend to get getter.

I also thought your husband was supposed to make the list of EP's, not you..

Yes, I have read the book Boundaries. I will re-read it. And yes, I do need to figure out what I can and can't live with. I am just having a hard time right now to not let me emotions drive my choices. I want to give my husband a chance to deal with this and for us to work on his marriage. It is very, very early stages right now with only one session behind him after his full disclosure of his sex addiction. He is really working hard, I can tell.

I must have misread about who makes the list of EP's. I thought it was something that I needed to do. Also, my marriage counselor asked me to make a list of things that I wanted my husband to do to build my trust. If my husband needs to make out the list, then I will take that approach. So much to learn about the MB principles.

reg,

Just wondering how things are going?

Thanks Still Crazy!

I feel so confused. And I don�t know what to do right now. My husband is seeing our marriage counselor for about 3 individual counseling sessions.

I opted not to see the counselor for individual sessions for two reasons (1) I wanted the counselor and my husband to work on his porn use, masturbation, looking at other women on line and chatting with women online. (2) my insurance carrier told me that they want me to see a different counselor for any individual therapy. And not for me to use the same counselor for marriage counseling and individual therapy.

Yesterday, my husband told me that the counselor is asking him a lot of questions about me such as if I nag him a lot, does my job cause me to have a lot of stress? What things that I have done to contribute to the problems in our marriage? The counselor said to me and my husband that he believes that I have a part in this also. I don�t understand how I have a part in him looking at and masturbating with porn. Is there something that I am missing? I do feel that I may not be meeting my husband�s needs. But my husband has never identified any needs. He keeps saying that everything is being met which I don�t agree with him because I feel that if he doesn�t know his needs then how can he be sure that I am not meeting them.

And my husband also said that the counselor told him that he had never heard of an insurance requiring a different counselor for individual and marriage counseling.

I know it may not look good that I am not seeing our marriage counselor for individual therapy. I just want my husband to get the help he needs first. I have not said that I won�t do marriage counseling because I had hoped that after a few more individual sessions for my husband that we could start back with marriage counseling. The counselor�s plan is to see my husband for individual counseling for about 3 sessions. Then one individual counseling session for me. Then stat back with couples counseling.

Am I looking like I am pushing away or something? I am trying to be patient and supportive. And I am trying to abide by what my insurance company wants me to do also. But I feel that the counselor is interpreting the wrong things about me by the questions he is asking my husband. Or maybe I am just reading more into this. Also, I am confused because doesn�t my husband need more than 3 individual counseling sessions to address what he is going through.

The counselor could be trying to figure out what's triggering your husband.

My husband's acting out was triggered by not getting his emotional needs met.

My husband was an acting out sa before we were dating. My husband picked a poor coping strategy.

Now, I used to be verbally and emotionally abusive. It's a behavior I'm not proud of. After d-day, it became clear to me that if I was abusive, I wasn't meeting my husband's emotional needs. (I know, for MOST people that's a no-brainer. Up to that point, I thought non-physical abuse in a marriage was OK and acceptable because of my upbringing. So for me, this was quite a lightbulb moment.)

Absolutely my husband is responsible for his addictive behavior and recovery.

However, I had to do my part..I couldn't keep behaving in a manner that would trigger him and expect sobriety. If I kept being abusive, I could see where someday he may have to make the choice between his sobriety and dysfunctional relationship. I didn't want my behavior to force him to make such a choice. So, I had to change my dance steps.

You aren't responsible for your husband's behaviors. But, you are a part of a dysfunctional marriage.

I'm curious Inrecoverynow, what emotional needs were not met for your husband.

This is a question that the counselor has asked him many, many times. And he can't seem to determine his emotional needs.

Emotional Needs question for Me:

I have a question about emotional needs. When I took the questionnaire to determine my emotional need, my top need came out to be SF. I was wondering is it possible that this is not my true top emotional need because if my husband has been battling an addiction and was withholding intimacy and SF from me. I am just deprived.

I guess I don�t know why I still feel so unloved by my husband and he is working really hard to meet the needs that I have identified. But, my love bank still feels empty.

My husband and I haven't formally done the inventories yet..

If I can guess, I think my husband's top needs that weren't met by me were admiration, affection, and domestic support.

Frankly, I didn't respect my husband and I didn't see him as an equal partner in our marriage. I thought I was the superior person, the party that was always right. My husband was always wrong. I also didn't believe my husband's feelings mattered. And FWIW, I thought it was normal to have minimal emotional intimacy in a marriage.

I'm glad I know better now. I'm still working on DS..

My husband was in counseling and sober for a year before we could have deal with issues like emotional needs.

It takes a long time to work through sa. The timeline is similar to working through infidelity, as in 3-5 years. We're at the three year end. But, I think that's because my husband really worked his recovery and his addiction didn't involve physical cheating.

Your husband has been numbing himself so he doesn't feel a thing for a while, I'm presuming.(My husband had been acting out for almost 20 years. He spent 2/3rds of his life trying to numb himself so he wouldn't feel anything.) It's going to take him a while to get to the point where he can identify feelings, needs, etc. I don't believe learning to cope with feelings can be turned on and off like a light switch..

reg i don't know enough about ICs or MCs to answer your question, but it could also be that your H is hearing what he wants to hear and not what is really being said (if that makes any sense ).

Just keep going with your gut instincts, they usually do not prove you wrong.

Good luck!!!

Hello Everyone:

I started about 2 months ago in group therapy and individual counseling with a counselor certified in sex addiction and who works with partners of sex addicts.

Also, my husband is going to have an assessment with a different certified sex addiction therapist so he can start recovery efforts.

Here is my question:

At what point (when) do we start using the techniques for MB. My counselor told me to throw all of the MB techniques out the window because it will not work on my marriage right now because of my husband's issue with pornonography and for me working through recovery of his issues with pronography.

I see many of you who are married, have spouses that had addictions and are using the MB techniques. What do you recommend?

Thanks again everyone!

What your counselor may be telling you is that your spouse may not yet be capable yet of POJA, Rule of Protection, Rule of Honesty, if he's still active in his illness. Dr. Harley himself in the Q&As to the spouses of alcoholics and the article on Codependency explains with great insight why your spouse needs to get emotional sobriety before they're going to be able to pick up the MB Concepts and stop LBing you. Maybe your counselor is concerned you would get discouraged, getting closer to your spouse and getting to know him better when that's not safe yet. Falling deeper in love with him maybe isn't a good idea yet until you see if he is able to get some emotional sobriety.

All that said, I think some of the MB concepts are very healing for spouses of addicts, the same concepts you'll be focusing on in your own recovery, specifically not doing things you are not enthusiastic about, Rule of Protection, and Rule of Honesty, if you decide that's safe.

regitest, Dr. H started his career working in addiction recovery, and has amazing insight. Have you read his Q&As to the spouses of alcoholics and the article on Codependency lately?

Steve Harley will tell you that it is your DH's responsibility to ensure that you feel in love with him. To do that he has to meet your needs. Not "you have to suck it up and love him unconditionally". I think that is a fundamental misunderstanding that people have...they think it is your fault you don't feel in love with them when it is really their fault because they are not meeting your ENs. So if your DH rally wants you to feel confidece that he loves you then you need to share your EN questionnaire with him.

Hi Everyone! I need your help again, please. Here is my question before I go into a little background as to what has been going on the past few months. How do I respond to my husband�s attempts to work on our marriage? I don�t want to be the stumbling block but I am not sure what to do.

Here is what has happened since I last posted. My husband started counseling for sex addiction. I also went through counseling (and in a support group) with a sex addiction therapist who works with spouses of sex addicts. My husband did not go to sex addiction counseling willingly. He didn�t start going until I told him that I wanted to officially separate. He asked what he could do. I asked him to start with doing an assessment with a sex addiction counselor. He did and the counseling identified that he needed sex addiction counseling. My husband was masturbating and using porn and he never wanted to have sex with me.

Two months into his sex addiction counseling, he stopped going, which was around the holidays (Thanksgiving). He said he was taking a break because of the holidays.

I talked with him in December about him going back to counseling because I was concerned that he had not started back. He said he would start back in January. January came and went and he still was not going back to counseling. On top of this, he had not approached me for sex since November.

I know I am supposed to go by his behavior right now. But I am so concerned. I�ve talked with him over and over again about the lack of SF in our relationship. But he assures me that he is not having sex with anyone else or masturbating. But I can�t believe this because he is not approaching me for sex.

I finally gave up and told him two weeks ago that I am getting prepared to separate from him. He cried and said he would do whatever it takes because he did not want to loose me. He has started back to counseling with the sex addiction counselor.

He has been sending me flowers, cards and gifts but these things don�t work for me. And I have told him this in a nice way. What I want is SF, intimacy and deep conversation where we talk about the things we like, don�t like, just getting to know each other on a deeper level. Right now, he knows nothing about me from a sexual standpoint and the same goes for me because he doesn�t like revealing this type of thing to me.

Before, he started counseling with the addiction therapist, we were in marriage counseling. And even there, no matter how many times I said that I needed the intimacy, I needed the sexual fulfillment, he does nothing. I don�t know what to do. I want to work on my marriage but I can�t continue to go without SF.

I don�t want to be a stumbling block when he is trying to make an effort to work on our marriage (by going back to counseling, sending me flowers, etc) even though it is not in the SF department.

Why won't he have sex with you? Would he be willing to use the MB program and start immediately with 25+ hours a week of undivided attention meeting these top 4 needs of sexual fulfillment, conversation, affection and recreational companionship? Would he commit to this plan?

I would lay out a more viable plan and see if he will get on board with that. If he will commit to the Marriage Builders you have some hope here.

Also, when and where does he masturbate? Any plan would have to include a way to get all the porn out of your house so he couldn't do it again in your house. For example, if he slaps the salami in front of the computer, I would password protect the computer and move it to the front room so he can never be on the computer if you are not right there.

Check out these articles: How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage



Addiction to Pornography

Is your husband honest about all of his addictive behaviors?

Another SA behavior is to scan women. Little hits that way, storing pictures of women up to fantasize with later.

Scanning behavior can be the behavior that starts the acting out process (IE, scan, fantasize, look at porn, masturbate.)

Simply stopping the porn and masturbation may not be enough. And, there's nothing you can do to change conditions in which you husband stops scanning. (You can't permanently blindfold your husband, nor can you keep him in an environment where he is only exposed to you.)This is a behavior your husband has to choose to stop and work hard at stopping.

Also, it typically takes a few years to work through SA (3-5 years. It took us 2.75 years.) You aren't going to get results (meaning, a husband ready for emotional intimacy) in 3 months.

regitest, I would strongly suggest you get help from the Harleys on this. Dr Harley is a clinical psychologist with a background speciality in addictions. [his main speciality is infidelity but he has extensive training and background in addictions - he once owned a chain of treatment centers]

He addresses this addiction in one of his recent newsletters: What is Sexual Addiction?

There are numerous recovered marriages over on the private forum where the husband is a "sex addict." Their marriages are fully recovered today because of his guidance and direction. They have established intimacy and did so in a matter of DAYS. Here is the online program link. Please don't give up before you try that.

Also, have you checked into the MB radio show archives? There are lots of clips on this subject. You can even email Dr Harley and ask about your situation. The radio show archives are here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/radio_programs.cfm

Here is a good archive about porn in the archives:
November 9, 2010
Segment: #02363 Members Rating: (No Ratings)
View Member Comments!
Topics Covered:

Emotional Needs: Sexual Fulfillment, Admiration
Policies: Policy Of Joint Agreement, Policy Of Successful Negotiation
Infidelity: Miscellaneous

Description:
Lynn writes her husbands addiction to pornography has deeply affected the relationship with Lynn. He has admitted that the contrast of the various naked women make Lynn look less attractive. She equated his porn use to an affair and ask what do I do.

Thank you for the links to the radio archives and newsletters. I will look over these. Also, I've thought about working with Dr. Harvey.

So, I am realizing that it will take up to 3-5 years for the emotional intimacy. What about the SF? Is it normal for us to not engage in any type of SF while he is going through recovery for sex addiction?

Also, inrecoverynow, I don't think my husband is honest about all of his behaviors. I don't think he really knows what his triggers are at this point. Or, maybe he is just pulling the wool over my eyes and he really knows and doesn't want to honestly battle his behaviors. I think this is what I am struggling with the most. Is he really trying to work on his addiction? Or is he lying to me and trying to do the least possible efforts with his recovery so I won't leave him.

In regards to scaning women, yes, I see him scanning women especially when watching television. At one point he was scanning women when we would go out someplace in public. But, he hasn't identified this as one of his behaviors. However, I have brought it up to him that I've noticed that he scans women but he has told me that he didn't know he was doing that. I don't know if this is something that he is working on in his sex addiction counesling. I've just learned how to deal with this through my counseling so I won't get obssessed with his behavior.

He hasn't viewed any porn on our computer since we started marriage counseling last year. But he had a hard time stopping looking at women on one of the social networking sites. He would constantly got bombarded with photos from women, some were nude and alot of them were not.

He had closed all of his social networking sites while we were seeing the marriage counselor. But recently he signed up at one of the social networking sites FB because his sisters and brothers are on them. And I've noticed that over the past couple of months that he has been logging on to FB almost everyday, which is concerning me.


Thanks everyone!

registest, I would put a keylogger on his computer and see what he is doing. That will be the best way to rebuild trust. [don't tell him about it. eblaster is a good one] And I don't agree that it will take you that long to regain emotional intimacy. Other couples in the MB program do it much faster than that.

And the sooner you resume sexual relations, the sooner will regain the intimacy, because restoring intimacy depends on spending 25+ hours of undivided attention time each week meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs.

Emotional intimacy depends entirely on the amount of hours you are spending with each other. Policy of Undivided Attention

registest, I would ask him to stop doing this because it is harmful to your marriage. It is very offensive to most women. I would not recommend that you learn to deal with it, because it is a lovebuster that will cause you to fall out of love with him.

Learning to accept offensive behavior in marriage is how love is lost and incompatibility is created. Instead of lowering your expectations, you should raise them. That is how love is restored to marriage.

FB can very well be dangerous, and his elevated use of it could be an indicator.


Reg, his use of porn, chat, or anything else which feeds his sexual dysfunction is going to do little more than destroy any hopes for intimacy in your marriage. It's creating unrealistic associations to arousal and climax which you, nor any other flesh-and-blood woman, would be able to meet.

Quite honestly, he should probably spend as little time as possible on the computer, and as little time watching TV as possible.

That's very simple, because he should be spending 20+ hours every week with you.

I agree she should ask him to stop this behavior but it is difficult to have that conversation when he won't admit to doing it in the first place. It is amazing how you can see them doing it but they still deny it. My husband has followed someone with his eyes on many occasions where I was worried he would get punched out it was so blantant...yet he denies it.

If her husband is still viewing pictures on FB or elsewhere and denying it, confrontation does not good. The keylogger is a great idea!

ok, but that is another problem entirely. If your spouse is dishonest, then you have TWO problems to address.

I agree. This is the problem I think the poster may need to address first. It sounds like her DH is agreeing to couseling to appease her, not because he feels he has a problem. I don't think he is being honest with himself.

Registest, have you ever considered following through on your ultimatum? Actually separate from your husband?

Yes, I have seriously considered following through on the separation. I have started looking at apartments. Actually, I told my husband that I do plan to move out over the summer because we are having these issues. I wanted to wait until school is out before leaving. I'm tired of the emotional rollercoaster. I feel as if I've completely given up on our marriage.

But deep down inside of me, I want us to work through this. I want to stay married. And, we have a daughter that would be so devastated if her parents split. But I've been so drained with him not trying that I fear if he is serious now about us working on our marriage that I don't trust him enough for me to do my part.

This is why I am reaching out for help!

Thanks!

regitest, I would try this program first before you give up. There are several couples who had this issue over on the private forum who are recovering their marriages.

Thanks everyone! I feel so much better posting here. Also, where is the private forum? Is this a place I can access?

Thanks!

Reg... i just read your thread. I am sorry you are in this situation. I pray that your hubby can gain control of his independent behavoir. I see someone suggested you put a keylogger on your PC .. that is a great suggestion. Here is a link to a free keylogger that also takes screenshots automaticly. It is undetectable by antivirus aswell. The screenshots are located in the folder that it creates when it is installed but you can not access it without being in the program interface and then you have to move up a folder as the one you land on when checking logs (the screen shot button does not work on the free version)

www.desktopshark.com

Good Luck!

registest, that is part of the Marriage Builders online program. They assign you a coach and lay out your lesson plan for you. It is a little pricey at $1000, but many folks have used it to good effect. online program

If that is too steep,I would send Dr Harley an email and ask his advice on how best to solve this. He charges nothing if you send an email to his radio program and will even follow up with you.

Please follow up with MrNiceGuys recommendation of putting a keylogger on his computer. I suspect you will find he has not stopped.

I'm not telling you to give up but the way I see it is that he doesn't think you're serious, that you won't really leave him over this. Hearing a threat about separation is nothing compared to looking at the paperwork in your hands after being served. Might be the impetus for him to finally acknowledge the problem and become serious regarding doing something about it. You're going nowhere right now, and if he won't acknowledge the problem why would he want to use the MB program? A LOT of people come here with their spouse with one foot out the door, but he thinks you won't do it.

Hi Everyone:

I am back and need your help. I want to go into Plan B and separate from my husband. I need help with what to put in a separation agreement (my state does have legal separation so I am going to work with a counselor to draft up an agreement that I will present to my husband).

Since I last posted, my husband has still battled his addiction. He said that he still fantasizes about other woman and has a wondering eye (he looks at other women). Also, he recently admitted that he was engaging in an affair (an emotional affair) with a female coworker. He says he does not see her anymore and he stopped talking to her about 3 years ago. My DH also says he does he engage in watching porn or chatting online with other women. However, he still is not interested in me. We do not engage in SF and he does not pursue me.

He is distant and does not talk with me. When we do talk about our relationship (I bring up the distant and lack of communication and lack of SF), he cannot open up. He shuts down and does not talk. In the past 2 weeks, he responds by saying I don�t love him. I don�t trust him or I just want to get rid of him. I am emotionally tired from all of this. I asked him to go back to the marriage counselor on his own because he stated he wants to prove to me that he has changed.

After several weeks of seeing the therapist and his preacher, nothing has changed. He is so defensive when I ask him to open up and talk to me. Also, I started asking him about if he was viewing porn or seeing the other women. And I know he looks at other women because I see him looking at women when we go to the store and other places.

He got so defensive that he started yelling at me and asking me why don�t I trust him. And that I was punishing him because I am not letting what he has done in the past go. I could not take him screaming at me because he has never done that before. I asked him to leave the house for one night. He called everyone (family, preacher and counselor) and told them I kicked him out of the house.

The counselor called him back on Saturday night and told him to be a man and come back home and be the man of the house. Also, the counselor told my husband to tell me to call him on Sunday. On Sunday, I called the counselor. This is the marriage counselor my husband and I had seen him in the past for marriage counseling.

I told the counselor about the lack of communication, how my DH and I do not talk and that we have not slept in the same room in almost a 1-2 years. The counselor told me he was shocked because this is not what my DH told him in counseling sessions. The counselor asked me what I wanted to do. I told him I am so emotionally tired and I wanted to feel healthy again. I said I wanted to separate. The counselor said he would mediate the separation. Even though my state does not recognize legal separation, he said we can still put together an agreement. The counselor wants during this time for my husband to work on making changes. Also, the counselor asked me to draft up what I want in the separation agreement, items that I feel my husband should work towards in the interim for reconciliation. I really feel my DH should present something to me. But I do want to present what I feel would make me feel safe and what my boundaries are.

So, I am asking for help on what I should include in the agreement.
I want to first off include:
1. Complete his sex addiction counseling (he stopped going after 2 months)
2. Attend the 12 step program for sex addiction (he stopped this meeting after 2 group sessions)
3. Find an accountability partner for his sex addiction
4. Stop talking to the coworker (I will address this more with the counselor tomorrow. I just learned this from him. He says he does not see her anymore. The counselor did not know this until I told him today). Not sure if I need to do the exposure of this as well because he said it happened so long ago.
5. A plan for not viewing porn and chatting online with other women
6. Individual counseling to deal with communication skills and his fear of rejection (this is what the counselor has said he fears rejection and being alone)
7. I want him to be a partner with me � he does not help with parenting. I do all the housework. I pay all of the bills. And this is tiresome.
Am I going in the right direction? What else should I include? I never thought I would be getting to this point. So, I really need help.

Here is what I have done:
� I have completed counseling with a sex addiction counselor who works with spouses of sex addicts for my recovery
� I have attended a group program for spouses of sex addicts
� I have learned so much about myself and realized where I can do better and worked hard on improving myself.

Do you have this on Plan B?
How To Plan B properly
Plan B letter samples

I would also add to do MB coaching.

Do you have an IM lined up? This will help you.
IM training school

Thank you for the list. And Yes, I need to add MB. I was thinking about the coaching earlier this week.

No, I do not have an IM lined up. I don't have anyone that could do this for me. Is there someone on the forum that I can reach out to for this?

Thanks again.

Hi Everyone:

I looked at the sample Plan B letters and crafted one.
- I included the steps for reconciliation as I had mentioned in my earlier post.
- I added MB
- And I borrowed the following statements from one of the letters and added to my section for reconciliation: (1) - A detailed recovery plan (what it is and how YOU plan to implement it) and (2) - Proof you're working a 12-step program for addiction.

I gave my Plan B letter to the therapist and my DH. My DH�s response was he wanted to give me room to heal. He kept apologizing for hurting me and he does this a lot. He says he feels so full of guilt and shame about what he has done. My DH has set an appointment to start back with the 12-step program. The therapist had recommended an inpatient program for him for addiction since he did not go to the outpatient counseling but for about 5 sessions. My DH states he will go to the inpatient addiction program.

But, I feel disappointed. I wanted us to try MB before moving to Plan B. It seems there is more we can do instead of him walking away today so easily with the thought of separation. I know I sound emotional and I do feel it.

About 8 months ago, he asked to borrow my copy of �his needs her needs� to read along with �Boundaries� to read. He said he understood the basic concepts from the his needs her needs book. He asked me about my top needs and has told me so many times he wants to work on meeting them. From the assessments, I used to think my top need was SF. I still do think it is one of my top needs. However, I�m beginning to feel that Honesty and Openness and conversation are top needs followed by SF. The reason is each time my DH and I talk and he tells me how he wants to change and he doesn�t want to lose me and he never tries to meet my needs, I feel so crushed. Maybe, I am the stumbling block here. I�ve wondered if we both have our top needs wrong.

My DH says that conversation is his top needs but I think his top need is admiration but he tells me it is not. The reason I think this is one time he told me he wants me to feel proud of him. Also, when we talk, he is still distant. I find myself doing all the talking and he sits there in a daze. When I stop talking, he gets upset and says I don�t want to talk to him. So, it seems that conversation is more of a chore for him than a motivator.

Also, I think he is trying to meet my needs with what he really wants from me. For example, some days gives me too many compliments and praises me excessively. I gently had to tell him that these gestures are sweet but I really wanted him to talk more so I can learn more about him, his feelings, his goals, and spend time with him. I want us to spend time together, for us to talk, for him to show me he cares about me by being interested in what I have to say and not tuning me out so much. And for him to be interested in me and attracted to me physically. This is when he shuts down or he gets frustrated because he tells me he is trying to meet my needs.
I feel that since he doesn�t open up, I don�t know much about him and he doesn�t know much about me. I find it hard to give him praise because I don�t know him. I don�t want to lie and give him false admiration.

I guess I feel that we haven�t tried everything yet. Or maybe I�m just feeling too emotional right now.
My DH keeps telling me he has stopped viewing porn, not seeing the coworker, not fantasizing about other women, not chatting with other woman online but he is so distant from me. He says he fears loosing me. But he has not put out the effort to work on our marriage. I still have the tracking software on the computer and nothing has been emailed to me that is inappropriate in awhile. It is just the distance and lack of SF that makes me wonder what is really going on.

So since you gave him the Plan B letter is he out?

Do you have an IM?

You need to go dark now until he's ready to meet all your conditions.

I can't remember but do you have children?

He's a sex addict and Dr. Harley says with addicts that MB won't work until the addict is clean.

After he becomes clean will be the time for you to work on the M.

Now use Plan B to protect you and your lovebank.

He is not out yet. We will make a plan for who moves out in the next few weeks. This is because of my state laws. Legally, the plan B document does not hold weight in court as there is no such thing as a legal separation. Also, I cannot by law make him leave our home nor can he make me leave unless there is threat of physical violence.

I am using the plan B document because I believed it would help me express my terms for reconcillation and how much pain my DH has put me through. The plan B document is serving that goal.

By presenting my plan B with a marriage counselor, it helped my DH to agree because he wants me to have space. So, the next step is to define the terms of who will move out. Right now, I want to move out and I am finalizing my transition to another house. If I stay in our home and he moves, he has the right to come in and out as he pleases.

Thanks! I will keep everyone posted.

Registest - I'm sorry it's come to this. Perhaps your separating from him will wake him up and he'll get real help for his affair and addictions.

Words mean nothing. Only his actions matter. I'm glad you are seeing this. He seems sincere - at least he is saying he wants to make things work. This is a good sign.

This cannot be easy for you - you've been through a lot of hurt and disappointment. BrainHurts is right: going dark will protect your love bank so you have the motivation to work on the marriage after your H makes the necessary changes you outlined in your letter.

I am following your post and cheering you on!

PLEASE PLEASE MAKE HIM GO! (I have similiar struggles as your husbad...its an addiction) I am going to talk from an addicts perspective. His addiction is the same as an alcoholics (just different vice). Did he think he was strong enough to battle through it on his own? If so, he was a fool and while he still has a chance with you I want to smack upside the head and encourage him to go. I got my last chance and stopped going to counseling because I thought I could do it on my own. I wanted my wife to "make" me go because I knew I needed it but felt so much shame and guilt it was easier to think I could do it on my own. I have to learn to see this through for me...

From your perspective you have to protect yourself. My wife "kicked" me out and I am living with my mom. I have 4 nights a week that I am "free" the other 3 I am with my kids. He needs some kind of motivation that will ROCK HIS WORLD...and give him no choice but to go. I may have lost my wife because I thought I was strong....If your husband needs to talk to someone who he can relate to...have him send me a message. I am learning the hard way...and it hurts so much.