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The Policy of Joint Agreement:
Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse.

The POJA is not, "Avoid doing anything without enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse." The word "never" is what makes the POJA the POJA.

Registest, have you read through all the basic concepts? If so, where do you believe that YOU are falling short?

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Originally Posted by registest
Hello everyone:

Thank you for your response.

Justfigureditout: My husband is in his midforties. Yes, he had his testosterone levels checked. And they were normal. He is not taking any medication now except for Viagra. Our marriage therapist told him to get Viagra because he believes my husband is having performance anxiety the reason why he has an aversion to sex.

Still_crazy: I had stopped snopping because I was just tired. I felt I was obsessed especially when he denies doing anything. So, I did take your advice and decided to snop today. And I discovered where he had searched this week for nude pictures. Also, he has went on some website where he could rate pictures of women.

I just don't know what to do. How can my husband and I get past this and build our marriage when he is lying about what is going on?

Thanks everyone again for your responses.

registest,

I really hope that you decide to click the "notify" button and have you thread moved to "Surviving an Affair" because that is most certainly what you are going through.

The actions of your husband are in no way shape or form YOUR fault and there is is NOTHING wrong with you. His actions are solely on him and for him to take ownership of.

He is "cheating" on you every single solitary time he gets on that computer and looks at porn, he is satisfying his need for SF through other women.

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I think Bubbles has brought out a "blind spot" to SF and POJA that no one really directly speaks to. When SF is being POJA'd over and over and over until everyone is happy, guess what is NOT happening? SF. We are essenitally saying sacrifice and do without until your spouse is enthusiastic. Now, if we were POJA-ing housework, we could theroetically hire a short term maid to keep the clutter from burying us. We could go eat lunch with a friend every once in awhile to prevent conversation backup. But with SF, putting it on hold until we have finished negotiaing everything means....we got nothing. That is a dilemma. Not one that most people want to take six month of perfection to fix because they are ALREADY desperate. I mean, if my arm is hainging by a sinew, and the nurse keeps saying, "You just need some bactine...you just need some bactine..." at some point that arms is going down her throat - ha ha.

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Originally Posted by thinkinitthru66
Based on what I have learned here, there is no such thing as a "strict" POJA. The POJA is the "opposite" of compromise. The whole thing that makes POJA work is that we do not require our spouse to do ANYTHING which they cannot do enthusiastically, therefore preventing massdive love bank withdrawls. Additionally, we are protecting ourselves from massive love bank withdralws that come from the resentment that builds up from having to sacrifice.

Compromise is mutual sacrifice and bound to result in resentment and loss of romantic love. This is EXACTLY what POJA is designed to prevent, and it is one of the many aspects of Marriage Builders that is so different than what people get in traditional marriage counseling.

Yes, if both spouses cannot come to an agreement using POJA, that means they do nothing until they DO come to enthusiastic agreement.

Often if they can't come to enthusiastic agreement, it is because there are deeper problems. And in this case, it's pretty obvious that there are some deeper issues which need to be adressed, on the part of both parties. Sadly, only one party is here, so we can only work with her side of it.

I agree with the other stuff you said about O&H, talking about EN, etc. But compromise, especially in a situation in which there is not a large reserve of romantic love in the 'ole love bank, is extremely dangerous to marriages and is not the MB approach, in my opinion.

Then again, I'm still rather new around here, so maybe a long-timer could set me straight.

Okay, If you want an "long-timer" to set you straight, I will do so. You are absolutely correct in your understanding of the application of the POJA.

I would place one of those moving icons here with their clapping hands, but I haven't figured out how, yet.

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So much good information....Thank you everyone...

Let me answer some of the questions that have been asked:
1. Is my husband in love with me? He tells me he is. In counseling he cries because he doesn't want to loose me.
However, it concerns me because he wrote in counseling that his #1 need is for me to feel confidence that he loves me and is devoted to me. Then his 2nd need is conversation which we do a lot of and he says he enjoys it.
2. Where am I falling.....I think I am not meeting his emotional needs. And this is what hurts me so much inside. And besides the emotional needs that i need at the start of this post, he says that it is nothing that I am not doing. He says it is him.

So, I am torn. I can't determine if this is porn addiction or if his emotional needs are not being meet or both. When I do the concepts for MB, they don't seem to work. And I guess this is where I am feeling helpless. Then as I was reading over some of the threads and Dr. Harley's articles, I see over and over again that if a person has an addiction then the MB techniques will not work. Am I reading this wrong?

Also, I am wondering if we are using the wrong approaches if he indeed has an addiction. I believe he does but our marriage counselor thinks he should be able to just stop.

Thanks everyone.

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Heya reg - I thought I'd chime in a few thoughts.

Originally Posted by registest
he wrote in counseling that his #1 need is for me to feel confidence that he loves me and is devoted to me.

This is not an appropriate EN in the strict MB sense of the term. You will only know that he loves you if he shows you love, and fills your LB. He is wanting YOU to be responsible for the balance of his LB and it just doesn't work that way. He is trashing your love every time he uses porn or rejects you sexually in favor of porn. Every time he has a sexual experience that doesn't include you, you love him less. That is exactly how Love Busters work. He wants to Love Bust you with out draining your Love Bank - he wants you to love him despite acting in a way that proves his disregard and love for you - and placing the onus on you to maintain your love for him. Sorry that's cake eating. It doesn't work that way.

He needs to take responsibility for the fact that when he uses porn and masturbates, he is killing your love for him. You do not have control over that. He does.

You will feel confident in his love for you when you see action from him that demonstrates his love from you in a way you understand (Meeting your EN).

Based on what you've written here, he could have an addiction. I say this because if he wanted to stop he would, unless he's addicted. If he weren't an addict your counselor should be right. However, he is still looking, hiding it and lying to your face. MB will NOT work on an addict. You have to break the addiction first. Since MB is NOT working for you I'd lean towards an addiction.

However, there are several reasons for why what he's doing may not be an addiction, particularly based on his 'no. 1 EN'. He may not believe that he is responsible for how you feel about him. He may be saying he'll quit just to get you off his back and really have no intention or desire to stop the porn use. The counseling may all be a farce of appeasement. Really it is hard to say.

It may be beneficial to confront him with this recent porn use and ask him to talk with a CSAT (Certified Sex Addiction Therapist) to determine if he is actually addicted. Find one here.

Before any progress is to be made, you need to at least rule out the possibility of an addiction.





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Originally Posted by registest
I can't determine if this is porn addiction or if his emotional needs are not being meet or both. When I do the concepts for MB, they don't seem to work. And I guess this is where I am feeling helpless. Then as I was reading over some of the threads and Dr. Harley's articles, I see over and over again that if a person has an addiction then the MB techniques will not work. Am I reading this wrong?

Any addictive or compulsive behavior inevitably becomes a lonely substitute for good relationship behavior. Compulsive solo recreation or exercise, being blotto on drugs or alcohol, hormonal imbalances - they all put people into a fog, and isolate them from conversation, RC and UA time, affection, family time and SF.

Trying to untangle and measure what part of the problem is due to the compulsive behavior and what is due to the people around them is futile. Too complex. Too much fog. The compulsive behavior has to be stopped to clear the system, simplify things, and let everyone see clearly.

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Hello:

Retread: I thank you for the explanation about the fog that isolates the addicted person from conversation, RC, UA time, affection, family time and SF. I had wondered about if my DH was in a fog because he can not work with me on all of the assignments that the counselor has given us. He keeps telling me that he is confused and doesn't know what to do.

And thanks again everyone. I think I want to make sure that my DH's addiction is ruled out. I told my husband that I was concerned about his porn activities. And ask him to contact our counselor to rule out a sexual addiction. My DH got mad with me and told me that he was tired of my endless speculations and accusations. I was crushed.

Then, I told him that I stumbled across recent searches and websites that he visited that were porn material and sites to vote on hot women's pictures.

He told me that he was sorry. And asked what he could do. I told him to call our marriage counselor like I had asked in the first place. Our mc wants to meet with us separately. Right now, I don't know if I should go separately.

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I am concerned about a counselor whose answer to addiction is to just stop. What I read is him getting mad at you, you showing him proof, and him being "sorry." I think he needs some bigger guns than "just stop it."

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Originally Posted by lurioosi2
I am concerned about a counselor whose answer to addiction is to just stop. What I read is him getting mad at you, you showing him proof, and him being "sorry." I think he needs some bigger guns than "just stop it."

How would you feel about getting a different counselor, say, Steve Harley? I know they are not covered by insurance, but from what I've seen here, he doesn not waste people's time and is good use of the money.

Also, traditional counselors, even marriage counselors, have a pathetic success rate when it comes to saving marriages.

The fact that the counselor wants to see you separately would concern me for some reason.

And the fact that the counselor thinks the compulsive behavior can just be stopped on sheer will power would also bother me, especially if your husband willingly admits that he has an addiction and can't stop. He's pretty much asking for help, and she is saying that he doesn't need it. That seems weird, especially coming from a professional.

You said your husband was crying in the session sayng that he didn't want to lose you.

That is not at all the same thing as being in love with you. That, in my opinion, is wanting to keep the status quo so that he doesn't have to face the consequences of his actions.

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lurioosi2: What are the bigger guns that you think are needed?

thinkinitthru66: Yes, I had wanted to use Steve Harley at first. But, then I changed my mind because I thought a counselor where my husband and I could sit face to face would be better. I guess I needed to see his body language.

Also, let me clarify something. My husband has never admitted that he has or had a compulsive behavior. Even when I talk with him about his activities, all he says is I'm sorry. And even in counseling, he has never said, yes, I have a problem. And this is what has concerned me the most about my husband. I think he is in denial.

And I can speculate why the counselor wants to see us separately, which is what our MC did at the beginning when he started counseling us. He wanted to get each of our prespective. So when my husband told me that our counselor wanted to meet with us separately tis week, the red flag that went up in my mind was my husband did not fully tell him the things that he is doing. It is usually me filling in the rest of the puzzle. And I don't like doing it. I feel like the villain when all I want to do is for my husband to get help. But I know that he has to want to help himself.

So I am having a hard time determining if he really wants to fight this addiction. By his actions, I am thinking that he doesn't. But then I don't know the behaviors of a person who is addicted. I guess that where i need help to make sure that I am making the best decisions in this situation. I love my husband and I want us to work through this. But if he is not willing, how can we?

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Sometimes by changing our own behaviors and attitudes, others around us are affected in a positive way. Sometimes they for the first time are left to face the consequences of their actions, and decide to do something other than apologize.

Luri, I don't think there is a blind spot to the POJA with regard to SF. If it means my EN does not get met because my spouse chooses not to do it because he cannot do it enthusiastically, and we can't come up with a solution together, then the ball is in my court because I can't change him. That is why Harley wrote "When To Call It Quits." I personally would not want to have sex with someone who did not want to be having sex enthusiastically. In that case, it is "just sex" and not really SF for either of us anyway.

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I know in my head you are right, think. But sometimes my emotions just go....yeah, the SF person goes without....again. It's whiny, I know.

When I said big guns, I guess I meant a counselor who might be more experienced in the porn stuff and can spot denial and tap dancing better. Someone that won't oversimplify or let your H off the hook.

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This counselor is supposed to have experience with the porn stuff and sex addictions. He is not certified though.

In fact I just got the phone with the counselor. I told him that I didn't want to see him individually this week. I wanted him to talk with husband.

I am not trying to be difficult but the counselor is making me feel this is a two way street. And my husband is not sharing with him all the things that he is doing. So I feel that my counselor is at a disadvantage. And he is working on the wrong thing. My counselor asked me to see him separately this week. I told him no. He says he is trying to make light of this situation but there are individual issues on both sides that is making this problem bigger. I don't see how it is both of us right now. What am I missing?

And he thinks that I was being obsessive because I was snopping and found were my husband had been on sites with porn.... But he told me that when I feel something is not right that I could check the computer and my husband email.

Yes, I know my emotions are all over the place. I don't know what to do. I am trying to hang in there. But maybe I am being to supportive. I feel like my husband is taking advantage of my support.

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And let add, he said that my husband was upset when called him (the marriage counselor). I told the MC that I about what I found on the computer, and they when I asked my husband about it he lied. Then I told the MC that when my husband asked what can he do after he said he was sorry. I said to my husband to call and ask the MC what he should do. And ask if he could evaluate him for a sex addiction.

When i said the word sex addiction to my MC he said that is strong accusations and that he thinks my husband has an impulsive problem which is different from a sex addiction.


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[b]and we can't come up with a solution together, then the ball is in my court because I can't change him.[/b]

This is a very important first step before even thinking about anything else. This is what I was saying but Think has a beef against me and simply wants to spend her time refuting different things I say and the way i say them...and Think wasting her time on this on this thread is not helpful for this poster.

Different viewpoints are needed to help with this particular problem. AS you can see there are very very diverse pieces of advice and views presented here in this thread. None are less than or worse than any other that has been presented.

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Thanks everyone. Yes, everyone has given me good advice and feedback.

Does anyone know of books or any threads on here where I can create some lists of things that I can discuss with my husband to put into place to help me to move on to recovery. I need to set my boundaries and I don't know how because I am not knowledgeable with the sexual addiction. As I need to learn so I can do things that will help me recover and build my trust. For instance, do I install filters on our computers to block the porn sites. Those types of things.

I hope I am making sense with question. If not, let me know.

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Don't waste your $ on books, they only give meaning to the "complainer". My W use to say it was my problem, she was fine with the frequency etc.

Bubbles hooked me up, now my life is great! I don't think my wife actually believed that arguements would be less, and shorter. They are! Things have been wonderful thanks to Ourhouse, L2, and Bubbles! Look at how often I haven't been on here and that's when things did a U turn!

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Bubs, I don't have a beef against you. I spent a lot of time on the POJA thread last week, so it was all very fresh in my head, and since it is slow on the weekend, I shared. I'll let the OP decide whether or not what I said was helpful. But since this site is about teaching the MB principles, I try not to stray from them too much in my posts to other people. MB works if it is used the way Harley teaches it. Some of the tools MAY work by themselves, but all of these things work best when they are not cherry-picked. Not that I have as much experience with this stuff as folks like Melody Lane and so many others.

Frankly, I too sometimes get frustrated with the black and white, all or nothing approach some people take with MB. Then I look at the years of marriage recovery they have.

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Originally Posted by registest
Thanks everyone. Yes, everyone has given me good advice and feedback.

Does anyone know of books or any threads on here where I can create some lists of things that I can discuss with my husband to put into place to help me to move on to recovery. I need to set my boundaries and I don't know how because I am not knowledgeable with the sexual addiction. As I need to learn so I can do things that will help me recover and build my trust. For instance, do I install filters on our computers to block the porn sites. Those types of things.

I hope I am making sense with question. If not, let me know.

I haven't read your whole thread. I'm just responding to this post.

Have you considered calling Dr. Harley?

My husband is a recovering SA. He acted out with porn and compulsive self-gratification. My husband read books by Patrick Carnes and worked through the workbook with a CSAT. There are also 12-step groups for you and your husband, if you feel that would interest you.

We have a blocker on the computer, but that was at my husband's CSAT's request. Mind you, the blocker was to keep my husband off of porn in the beginning, not a tool for me to check up on him. While not wildly popular, I don't actually know much about my husband's addiction or his recovery. I preferred to know less rather than more because my goal was to get to a healthy marriage. I felt for me, details did nothing to change the issue. My husband is still a recovering addict.

You also may want to consider reading the book "Boundaries" by cloud and townsend.

You may consider looking at wayward's lists of EP..My husband was very good at the transparency thing, accounting for his time and calling me throughout the day. Our marital recovery did look much like that of recovery after an affair.

Please be aware that you may be looking at a long process, 3-5 years, most likely. We are at the 3 year end. Things really started to fall into place about the 18 month mark. I began to trust him (healthily) again at that point.

Last edited by inrecoverynow; 05/17/10 10:54 PM.
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