I am Andrew Loll, Margie Loll's husband.

You can say affairage if you like, but let me say where you might want to reevaluate that statement: My wife and her XH did not marry for vows, or for their shared children, or even for a commitment. It was a viable option only because she was sent overseas by the military and did not want to risk the XH using a custody agreement to permanently take their children from her. It was, to my understanding, known to be a sham marraige, used solely for the paperwork and they did not try to "be married" at all.

My EA: There was not one. She was a third party to my marraige as people here are a third party to my marraige with the exception that we do actually know each other very well and we spoke mostly of helping her with her relationship with another woman, but she listened to me as well. Margie know's I wouldn't cheat under any circumstances, but accuses me of it whenever she is angry. I do believe in radical honesty and I don't mind with you guys either, ask away.

Alone? Yes I tried to save my marraige by myself for years. It started out badly, but with love, and we started MC about 10 months to a year after we took our vows. Here we are years later, and out of the 4 or 5 counselors we have seen, 3 have advised for divorce. I don't believe in it... so long as people can communicate and compromise. While Margie was telling people here how hard she is trying, she was being extremely passive aggressive, hurtful, and consistently betraying me. I just stay in the marraige and keep trying on this far out chance that there could be an honest turn around one day (even though that's been promised to me more times than I could count).

Her PAs and EAs: I could move past these things, as I said I do not agree with divorce in premise. The problem is that nothing has ever been resolved. I get lied to about these affairs still (IMO), because facts seem to change, and responsibility doesn't always stick. When I ask for a real version of what happens, it is very measured out and carefully worded, and usually will exclude what I have been told before, contradict what I have been told, or include something new. No body here, from what I read in her post, has heard a truthful version either. I do not know that I can dismiss such serious incidence without processing, and I certainly could not feel resolute about something I feel I don't know the whole story.


At this point I do feel like I have done everything I can do, and have put up with too much for too long. I followed books and articles on marraige, I especially found useful Dr. Phil's articles on if a person is 'ready for a divorce' and I have been using those for years already. I know I did all I could do, and that's it if I am doing it alone... but if we can do it together I still want to make it work. I was not invited to join the forum for fear of retaliation or anger because there are a lot of half-truths, exaggerations, one-sided stories, and lies; but I wanted to see for myself.

Can MB help WW and myself?


Andrew

Hi Andrew, and welcome to MB. I've posted on your wife's thread and I just wanted to say that no matter what, it takes courage for both of you to be here. And no matter how betrayed you feel, remember your wife took the step to come on here to try to save her marriage. That is a big sign that she is ready to commit to fixing it!

OF COURSE MB can save your marriage!!! If you are both open to adopting the concepts given by MB, then I believe you can do it.

Have you considered counselling with the Harleys?

Hi Andrew - Welcome. Glad you're here.

To address a few issues.

Affairage: To many people here it doesn't matter that your wife was in a 'sham' marriage. It was a marriage. Regardless of the feelings of the parties involved, having a healthy marriage comes from having respect for the institution of marriage in general. Whether she married for the right reasons, she still said those vows and made that commitment and you were right there to help her break that commitment. You need to see that if you disrespect one marriage for your 'special' case, you will disrespect all marriages, your own included.

A marriage is a marriage whether the people are in love or not. Love does not make a marriage, it just makes a happy one. Not being in love does not give one the right to break marriage vows. When you marry you give your commitment and vows for better or worse. Doesn't matter WHY your wife said those words, she said them.

There is no justification you can give to justify the fact that you started a relationship with a married woman. You are living the consequences of that. You married someone with weak boundaries and someone who does not value their commitment, unless they are convenient (i.e. in love). She didn't honor her first commitment to marriage and what did that get you? A cheater.

Now I know that Margie is trying to make changes. She is attempting to change her views on marriage to respect it. You need to do the same thing.

Because it is an affairage many of the best on this site, those with knowledge and experience will NOT help you. That is their right. To expect them to help you when many of them have been betrayed by someone standing in your shoes is unreasonable. For that reason I would recommend that rather than attempt recovery through this forum alone, you call the Harleys. THEY will help you and to be honest, as good as this forum is, their help will be far and above better.

The EA: admit what it was. It WAS an EA. A married man doesn't get to have a woman friend to 'help with relationship advice'. If you have a relationship problem, the only person you should be talking to about it is your wife. To use someone else is to confide your intimate thoughts with that person. Those thoughts belong to your wife and no one else. This forum, being public, is NOTHING like that woman.

As a married man, you do not get to help other women with their marriages or relationships. I don't care how nice a guy you are, that behavior will destroy your marriage. Even if you feel nothing emotionally, you are there while that woman reveals her intimate thoughts to you. The only intimate thoughts you get to hear anymore are those of your wife.

You were in an EA. You may not admit it, but you were. Sharing intimate details about yourself with a woman not your wife is inappropriate behavior for someone who respects and values their wife. Some of the text messages she reported here definitely crossed the line. You have damaged your wife's trust in you. You told your wife she had to come clean on here with the details of the affair, well buddy, you need to do the same thing.

There, now that the 2x4s are out of the way. MB absolutely CAN repair your marriage. It will take a lot of hard work for both of you. You both are going to have to change your views of marriage and examine your commitment. Your current views have left you with a train wreck. I know you may feel you've done all you can, but you were operating with the wrong play book. MB has helped many, many couples recover their marriages. The absolute BEST thing you could do would be to get on the phone TODAY and call the counselling center. Talk with the Harley's and get a PLAN that will save your marriage.

I'm glad you had the courage to post, and I'm glad your here. I can tell you that MB will give you an amazing marriage - you just gotta do it.

AL:

Mrs V posted this:

I was a "Nice" guy too. And I liked to listen to others (only women, BTW) describe thier troubles. Until... I listened to much. And got to close, and before you could say OMFG, we were off to the races for over 4.5 years.

First, end all contact with this women. If its nothing, that isn't a problem. If its SOMETHING, then continuing it is interfering in your marriage.

Second: No more going out at night with your buddies, for no reason whatsoever.

You state that you are committed to marriage and no divorce. Then you spend several nights a week out with your buddies, and that's OK. No, it is NOT. Can you go out? Sure, but not where your marriage is right now. Get a healthly marriage, and healthly friends, and healthy boundaries, and maybe then you can do some evenings out. Your not there yet.

Third: Continue reading and learning here. Read the basic concepts. Explore some long running threads. Start from the beginning, and read them. Read them with Margie. Discuss, your thoughts as your read some together. It is tough? You bet. But by reading them together, and discussing them thru the new MB lenses that you have, you two can grow in better understanding about each other.

There is a road out of this mess. For both of you.

LG

I know I shouldn't be reading his thread, I know I know I know...

1.) I have to clarify that the times that I said Andy went out were the only times he went out. I didn't mean to make it SOUND like he went out more than that. The week he graduated he went out 3 or 4 nights. The week before that I think he went out twice and the week before that once. Something to that effect.

2.) I think you guys are going to run him off. He came here for support, ya know?

Margie, I strongly recommend you not post on each other's threads.

No one can 'run him off'.

He's a big boy.

Margie - I think it's ok if you read his thread, you just need to refrain from posting on his thread. He is capable of representing himself. I'm sure he wants support, but what he needs is to know where he went wrong so he can know what to DO to fix this. Hand holding and 'there, there's won't fix this marriage.

Andy, I really hope you don't run off. I really believe you can save this marriage. I'm sure you're tired and don't know if you have it in you. I think you do. I think this is fixable. I'm sorry you've found yourself in this mess, but it is reparable.

However, it is going to take WORK! Marriage, even good marriage requires effort, work, and diligence. Whether THIS marriage survives or not, you need to really examine your views on commitment and marriage before you ever even contemplate another relationship. Your actions played a big part in landing you where you are. (However, you are in no way responsible for Margie's affairs, those are 100% her responsibility) You need to examine them and figure out where you went wrong, what ideas and thoughts you had that led you to where you are now. Sorry, that isn't going to be easy.

It can be done.

So please, don't run away. This can be done.

Text messages posted from me where completely inaccurate and out of context, and I have been honest about it with Margie. I do not allow negative people in my life, and if they were not supportive of my marraige I wouldn't be friends with any of these people. I don't want to speak for Margie but NC was never brought up and, speaking for myself, she's not afraid to tell me off every now and then. If this is an open forum and therefor acceptable to speak about our marraige, are conversations I share with my wife not open and acceptable? There are many friends I've had for a long time I say ILY to, some of her friends and family included.

The friends I went out with are responsible, loving, married couples that also support my marraige with the exception of 1 single guy I've been friends with for 10 years; who also happens to support me in my marraige. I'm a young guy who went through an incredibly hard semester full of physics and dosimetry on top of basically working a full time job with externships, and I went out for just 1 weekend. The night I didn't come home was the only time I drank a lot, and I stayed at the same married couples house. I should have called but was just hurt she did not care to call, text, or talk to me at all about it for the few days before. I was really surprised to hear complaints about it on here.

While it is believed that so much effort was put forth on the other side, I saw nearly non of that. I used similar articles before, and read through Plan A, B, Carrot and stick, and a few others before I ever posted; and I can promise it was not happening like you believe. I wish I could believe the honest effort was being made, but it never has been before and over these last few weeks I found myself at the other end of manipulative actions and vicious lies. Sorry, but it's hard to blindly believe when professionals have said to me before that she's not doing the baby steps, following advice/books/etc, and seems completely unwilling to cooperate in a way healthy to fixing a marraige. I would be willing to get counseling again but it has never been taken seriously before, despite my own efforts.

I've always taken marraige seriously, especially commitment and vows. I stuck around after affairs on my own free will, after there where gun shots as I drove away to go to class, after I came home one day and the house was empty because she fled the state with our children. I still wish it to work and I view marraige the same, I just don't know if I can believe she's had the breakthrough to make her views change so that there is no more inappropriate relationships, lying, lack of communication, and the so forth.

I don't know if its something completely ridiculous, but I wondered about Margie and I sharing a thread. I asked her to be more honest about us and I corrected a tiny amount of info from my side in hopes of creating an accurate picture for you guys so that we could get good, relevant advice.

Thank you for reading, and thank you for your words. Sorry for the skepticism, but I will still keep trying.

Andrew

Andy - glad you're still around. You and Margie should stay off one another's threads. It really will help.

As far as talking with women outside of your marriage about marriage problems. It is a slippery slope you don't even want to get on. The path to an affair is very, very easy to get on and if you don't have extraordinary precautions in place you WILL wind up there.

NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE! is immune from having an affair. We are all wired to have affairs. The only thing that keeps you from having an affair is strong, iron clad boundaries. Not the knowledge of the pain you will inflict, not the love you have for your kids, not the belief that you are a good person. If things are rough between you and Margie and you begin to confide in someone else, it won't be long before you just 'forget' to tell her about a conversation you had with Madam X.

There are 4 ENs that build romantic love: Sexual Fulfillment, Affection, Recreational Companionship and Intimate Conversation. If you get these met by anyone NOT your wife you run the risk of falling in love with them and they with you. Falling in love is actually pretty easy to do. Make enough deposits in a love bank, and you're there. That is why it is IMPERATIVE for a good marriage that the only deposits you're making and that are being made for romantic love are in your and your wifes banks.

Showing affection for another woman, having intimate conversation with another woman, is depositing love units into her bank, thus robbing your wife's.

DH and I developed a pretty close friendship with a coworker of mine and his family. My coworker and I talked about a lot of things, our relationships included. After reading here and seeing the heartbreak caused by EAs I resolved that I wouldn't even set a toe on that path. I told him, in no uncertain terms, that I would not talk about my marriage with him and I'd appreciate it if he didn't talk about his with me. It is not a subject we even discuss. I make it a point to NEVER call him. If our families are doing something together, or I need to get a hold of them, I call HIS WIFE. Those are precautions I've put in place to ensure our friendship never becomes an affair.

I'm crazy about my husband. He hung the moon. My heart swells with love for him most every time he walks in the room or I hear his voice on the phone. That won't stop me from having an affair. Only my actions will do that.

I would advise that you NEVER talk to another woman about your relationship. It doesn't matter if Margie is ok with it and approves. For the sake of your marriage - YOU shouldn't approve, it isn't worth the risk.

If I'm not mistaken, since Margie has had affairs, it puts YOU at an even greater risk to have your own affair. Your Taker is screaming to balance things out and for you to get your own cake on the side. You need to be as vigilant about your own behavior as you are about hers.

As far as recovering from infidelities. Would you consider Marriage Coaching here?

I think it would be helpful if you sat down and wrote out what marriage and the commitment you made mean to you. Examine your own commitment to marriage. Let me give you a hint - true commitment means that no matter how bad things are, you aren't cruising singles dating sites.

What you would like out of your marriage, and what it is from Margie that you need to rebuild your love and trust in her?

I wont lie, she stomped on your marriage pretty hard. She is going to have to do a TON of work to do to rebuild that. Getting coaching will help proved you with a plan and framework to start building that trust.

Have you read through the Basic Concepts of this site? What do you think of them? Do you think you can implement them in your marriage?

Hey Andrew - I agree with Vibrissa. No matter what Margie has done to your marriage, where are YOUR boundaries? Going on singles sites is crossing a line when you're married, no matter which way you look at it. Neither is staying out all night and not calling your wife to let her know where you are and that you're safe, even if you are hurt because she hasn't called to check up on you - maybe she thinks you'd be angry if she's calling you up to check up on you!

There seems to be a lot of blame going around between you and Margie. Stop it. Focus on yourself. Focus on where you need to go from here, to have a better, stronger, happier, and healthier marriage.

Start by filling out the EN questionnaire together. Talk about where you have failed, where you did great, and what you can do in the future. Start working on your marriage, instead of getting caught up in "who did what," and "you left out this detail...."

Good luck to you both.

You know what Andrew?

It sounds to me like you "get it" about talking with opposite sex friends about intimate things and the danger it can pose.

I just want to say I am amazed by your committment to stick through this. Multiple affairs and one night stands in group sex type scenes where the children are in the next room sleepling, the nutty behaviour, a lifetime of being berated, (gun shots???) I mean. I just don't know.

I am not sure whether to pat you on the back and say, "you got guts", or say, "I am not sure you should keep this up." It has to be tough.

I do know one thing, nobody deserves to go through what you have had to go through, and you don't need a lecture right now on what seem to me to be pretty minor things compared to the absolute nightmare Margie has put you through. By Margie's OWN admission, this type of behaviour was RARE on your part, especially in comparison to the way you have been mistreated.

I hope you stay on here and get some encouragement to save your marriage for you, your WW and especially your children.

I am pulling for you.

SWW

To have an actual 'Quick reply' for once:
I speak only briefly about my marraige, I don't want my friends pushing me in any direction, just supporting what I do. I mostly talk small talk with anyone I talk to, and the little bit of problems with us I talked about where pressing issues where I needed to make a decision. The sites I did sign up with I signed up with after I moved out for a few months, and the one or two I logged onto were actually innocent. Hard to believe but there are looking for new friends check boxes to use, but I stopped completely anyway, at WWs request, more than a week ago. (No, I do not use horny matches, I just got spammed from them)

I got the edge of the iceberg as to what is happening on this website, and I plan on reading more. If there are certain articles you'd like to point out feel free to do so. I don't know anything about coaches yet either but I'll catch up soon.

Andrew

Start by reading the Basic Concepts link up at the top of the page. Also here is Steps to Recover from an Affair. There's a lot of information here.

If you can get the book Surviving an Affair
Here's info on the Coaching Center

I'm glad you're sticking around here. Seriously consider coaching, I know it is expensive but it will be the biggest bang for your buck (sadly, now that the weekends seem to be a no go). The center can give you a PLAN and guide you through the steps you need to take to repair your marriage.

I really am sorry that you've wound up here. Reading through your and margie's stories is just heartbreaking. You really have put up with a bunch. I am so, so glad that you're here.

Andrew, Maybe you should post your story as you see it. It is your thread.

Thank you a lot for the understanding SWW, you made me feel a little less crazy.

Vibrissa, I read everything you linked to and most of what they linked to and so on. A lot of it was helpful and made sense, and a lot of it was similar to things I was doing from different books and websites. I read and I want to be honest about it.

I feel too angry and hurt to just jump into the raging waters that we have, I think I'm still trying to keep my head above the water, honestly. I tried so hard, so often, after so many betrayals, and all it seems to have gotten me was hurt again.

From the couple months before her month being active on here, I was cautious and scared of what might happen from the shooting situation, I was almost decided that she would never make the honest effort towards our marraige that I had tried to make so much. The last visit to our couples counselor was 2 days after that (and that was not near the beginning of our course of treatment, either). That's where he suggested working towards a peaceful separation and I felt ready for that. Following the typical course, WW claimed to be shocked at her actions, telling me it wouldn't happen again, begging me to try or at least give her a chance. Following my typical actions I wanted to believe it, I always wanted things better.

I found myself in the situation that I couldn't make myself try with all my might without seeing her willing to do the same. As I saw nothing really happening I felt angry and wanted more from her so that I could feel safe and secure in trying to fix us, again. When she got onto MB it was nice, but I still needed to feel better. She started getting frustrated and accusing me of things often, getting angry often, undermining me and my step kids... basically a motivated passive aggressive and angry attitude.

It did shift a bit soon, but not how one would hope, and I started trying. She mentioned SF and things being better, but there was a whole lot not I could not get from her. When I first read plan A it seemed far from what was happening. Then I was accused of cheating and she became real angry, and made it seem like I could do no good and she was out to get me, very harshly. I took that weekend to be away from a horrible home situation and gather my thoughts, and I sought support in some friends (the married couple and supportive people, I was not cheating, emotionally or otherwise). Then I was told, just a week ago, that she took a loan, paid off only her own debt, and paid a lawyer to go after my aggressively and without my knowledge. This came with the usual stuff on having me move, sticking me without the kids, and even getting a judge to order me to pay her loan which was used selfishly and didn't handle any shared debt. A lot of this is just like past situations where she took off with the kids out of state while I was at school one day, just to hurt me... getting all of her friends and family to team up against me by telling them lies and exaggerations (this has happened frequently, 10+ times), wasting a lot of money (many times), being generally dishonest (almost the entirety of our marraige), trying to 'get me' with her greatest effort. Basically reliving all of the horrible things I've endured in the last 4 years, with the exception of being with another man.

So with my side of the recent history, how can I get over things to use these tools? How can I know if she's serious or just setting me up? I feel as though I need so much to feel safe that it's unfair, but on the other hand every time I have been the one trying it has backfired horribly. She offered to let me track her computer and cell phone, but has proven in the past that nothing I do can make her honest or committed to the marraige. It feels horrible to be so lost, hurt, and unsure if this is a start or end. I think of making a step in any direction, and then I think of what I could lose from doing so. Any clue on a right direction to start moving?


Andrew

It sounds terrible. Why do you want us to help you stay with such a difficult and corrupt, manipulative, cold and mean woman? How could I help by helping you actually STAY married to her?

Wow, why did you stay this long?

I understand your stance, I've held the same stance many times. I still don't want a divorce if things can actually be better. I know it's naive to believe the same promises I have heard before... but how could I know? I dread the idea of throwing everything away and losing an entire family if the tide has actually turned and it could have worked, but I gave up too early.

Bubbles, he's no saint either. No man that would have a relationship with a married woman is. There is a high level of dysfunction in this relationship. It may not be salvageable. However, if they are both repentant and committed to change, I believe it can happen.



Andrew - I want to help you, I really do. And I'm probably one of the few here that will. However, healing for either party will not come until you are both honest and open. Margie opened up and laid the record straight on her infidelities. I have yet to see you do the same.


There is no way in h-e-double hockey sticks that THIS is an appropriate way to talk with a woman not your wife. You've painted a pretty story of only talking to friends that are supportive of your marriage, but if these are your words, they condemn you.

I'm sorry - but flirting, I love you's and sexy pictures. That is an Emotional Affair. I cannot see any way those words can be put into ANY context that will make them acceptable. Will you commit to never talk to this woman again, for the rest of your life? Your answer to that will be telling.

You will both have a lot to do to recover your marriage. Again, the best and only real help for you will be the coaching center. The scope of your problems are founded on your faulty understanding of, and respect for the institution of marriage. A paradigm shift is required for BOTH you and Margie if this marriage is to recover.

Call the coaching center - seriously that is THE best piece of advice I can give you.

You know how you can test Margie's resolve to recover this marriage? Call and set up coaching and see if she shows up. See if she works the program.

Andrew, I just posted to your "wife".

Is there any way you guys could drop your kids at an orphanage and save them a lifetime of grief?