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Originally Posted By: not2fun
doh2......has Pep's computer been revived????? Those were some awfully long posts to do by phone.....

We hope so....your wisdom has been missed..... wink

Not


Sadly, my puter is still packed away.
Mr Pep bought me an iPad for our 29th anniversary.
It's easier than my phone, but not quite like my HUGE screen HD puter.

I confess, I am a Mac addict.
I snort Mac.

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Originally Posted By: not2fun
Quote:
(I actually keep a notepad doc to keep track of some people because I don't have the ability to keep them all straight sometimes.)

rotflmao......for some reason this struck me funny...... grin

{{{{GM}}}},

Good to see you and DWG back!!! You know the only thing I have to say is TIME.....it took you a long time, in fact a lifetime for you, to develope those bad habits and behaviors and it gonna take more of it to UNDO them......

But the good news is you both recognizing them......most of the time that's the biggest part of the battle....

Not2fun


Hi, back at ya! Thanks for the wisdom.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Originally Posted By: Scotland
Thanx GM. I will be reading the threads to get all caught up. grin



Better take something for nausea first!


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Originally Posted By: GreenMile
This is for Scotland. In case there is confusion: DWG is my wife, Dances With Goats. Initially, she was SadSoSad. Then she progressed to MadSoMad. Finally, she has become DancesWithGoats.


Scotty, this GreenMile is NOT the same man who first showed up on MB.
The old GM was one for the record book.

No 2 X 4 could ever have been big enough.
To make matters worse, he is a physician. Very smart. Too smart for his own good.
But, not very wise at all.

He has come a tremendous distance from where he began.




Right as rain. Thanks so much, PB. Especially all you have done for DWG as well as me.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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I need some advice and help. This kind of thing has come up before, and I am too much of a dunce to know how to handle this. Last night, I attended a rehearsal for a jazz performance group I play in, with DWG's blessings. I called her on the way out the driveway and immediately after the rehearsal and stopped and brought her some food on the way home. Later, while doing late night chores (at the barn, feeding the horses), she noticed that things in my car were moved around and not as she remembered them, including the night vision binoculars she had left in a specific place that we use to see where the horses are in the pasture at night, and some junk mail that was now on the floor in front. I could tell she was agitated, worn out, and feeling uncomfortable before, and then she lowered the boom, accusing me of seeing and having sex with my old affair partner. I tried to my best recollection to explain why things were moved around in the car, but she became angrier and angrier and more accusative. I had had a bad rehearsal and was tired and agitated myself, and I became defensive. That made her worse, which caused me to become angry instead of lovingly supportive. I have made a lot of progress in the last year (I think), and we have been resuming MB lessons. I suggested that she call our director in the morning to confirm I was at the rehearsal, but her anger and agitation just accelerated and pushed me into a state of frustration, and I became defensive. I had been doing much better handling these episodes, but this just knocked her waaay back. She stayed up all night in another room and has concluded that I am the same old GM and will never figure out things and never improve. I don't know how to make myself stop getting defensive and make myself become calm, comforting, and reassuring, especially when I am not at my best because of any frustrating circumstances going on at the time. I feel sure that this will settle down over the next few days, but DWG becomes so definitive and final in her judgement of me during these moments of weakness, that I become weaker and weaker and afraid of failure of our chances for recovery. I just feel like a failure at these times. How do I help her and make her understand that I am not the guy I was all those years, that I have EP's in place that are sacrosanct to me, and that I can be trusted? How do I not become sad and frightened, when I am accused of being dishonest, even though it is a logical fear she has because of those many terrible years? How do I keep that sadness, fear, and frustration I feel at those times from knocking me back down into a quivering bowl of jelly, unable to help her recover? I know HOW to do it, I guess. But I have a terrible time invoking that knowledge and overriding the gut feelings I have at the time.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Let me think.
I will get back to you.

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Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Let me think.
I will get back to you.


OK, PB. Thanks for acknowledging. I look forward to your insights.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Originally Posted By: GreenMile
I need some advice and help. This kind of thing has come up before, and I am too much of a dunce to know how to handle this. Last night, I attended a rehearsal for a jazz performance group I play in, with DWG's blessings. I called her on the way out the driveway and immediately after the rehearsal and stopped and brought her some food on the way home. Later, while doing late night chores (at the barn, feeding the horses), she noticed that things in my car were moved around and not as she remembered them, including the night vision binoculars she had left in a specific place that we use to see where the horses are in the pasture at night, and some junk mail that was now on the floor in front. I could tell she was agitated, worn out, and feeling uncomfortable before, and then she lowered the boom, accusing me of seeing and having sex with my old affair partner. I tried to my best recollection to explain why things were moved around in the car, but she became angrier and angrier and more accusative. I had had a bad rehearsal and was tired and agitated myself, and I became defensive. That made her worse, which caused me to become angry instead of lovingly supportive. I have made a lot of progress in the last year (I think), and we have been resuming MB lessons. I suggested that she call our director in the morning to confirm I was at the rehearsal, but her anger and agitation just accelerated and pushed me into a state of frustration, and I became defensive. I had been doing much better handling these episodes, but this just knocked her waaay back. She stayed up all night in another room and has concluded that I am the same old GM and will never figure out things and never improve. I don't know how to make myself stop getting defensive and make myself become calm, comforting, and reassuring, especially when I am not at my best because of any frustrating circumstances going on at the time. I feel sure that this will settle down over the next few days, but DWG becomes so definitive and final in her judgement of me during these moments of weakness, that I become weaker and weaker and afraid of failure of our chances for recovery. I just feel like a failure at these times. How do I help her and make her understand that I am not the guy I was all those years, that I have EP's in place that are sacrosanct to me, and that I can be trusted? How do I not become sad and frightened, when I am accused of being dishonest, even though it is a logical fear she has because of those many terrible years? How do I keep that sadness, fear, and frustration I feel at those times from knocking me back down into a quivering bowl of jelly, unable to help her recover? I know HOW to do it, I guess. But I have a terrible time invoking that knowledge and overriding the gut feelings I have at the time.


OK Doc, here goes 'nuthin.

"and I became defensive"

Let's put you to work .... Explain to me EXACTLY what you were defending.
That is to say, WHAT principle/value were you defending?

If something is sooooooo important to you that you need to be defensive towards DWG, it better be an important VALUE or PRINCIPLE that you are speaking up about.

OK?
Try starting there.

After you answer that, then we can discuss the following:

Quote:


How do I help her and make her understand that I am not the guy I was all those years, that I have EP's in place that are sacrosanct to me, and that I can be trusted? How



Because, unless you were defending an important principle/value, you are NOT fully the new GUY .... But still a work in progress becoming the new guy.



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Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Originally Posted By: GreenMile
I need some advice and help. This kind of thing has come up before, and I am too much of a dunce to know how to handle this. Last night, I attended a rehearsal for a jazz performance group I play in, with DWG's blessings. I called her on the way out the driveway and immediately after the rehearsal and stopped and brought her some food on the way home. Later, while doing late night chores (at the barn, feeding the horses), she noticed that things in my car were moved around and not as she remembered them, including the night vision binoculars she had left in a specific place that we use to see where the horses are in the pasture at night, and some junk mail that was now on the floor in front. I could tell she was agitated, worn out, and feeling uncomfortable before, and then she lowered the boom, accusing me of seeing and having sex with my old affair partner. I tried to my best recollection to explain why things were moved around in the car, but she became angrier and angrier and more accusative. I had had a bad rehearsal and was tired and agitated myself, and I became defensive. That made her worse, which caused me to become angry instead of lovingly supportive. I have made a lot of progress in the last year (I think), and we have been resuming MB lessons. I suggested that she call our director in the morning to confirm I was at the rehearsal, but her anger and agitation just accelerated and pushed me into a state of frustration, and I became defensive. I had been doing much better handling these episodes, but this just knocked her waaay back. She stayed up all night in another room and has concluded that I am the same old GM and will never figure out things and never improve. I don't know how to make myself stop getting defensive and make myself become calm, comforting, and reassuring, especially when I am not at my best because of any frustrating circumstances going on at the time. I feel sure that this will settle down over the next few days, but DWG becomes so definitive and final in her judgement of me during these moments of weakness, that I become weaker and weaker and afraid of failure of our chances for recovery. I just feel like a failure at these times. How do I help her and make her understand that I am not the guy I was all those years, that I have EP's in place that are sacrosanct to me, and that I can be trusted? How do I not become sad and frightened, when I am accused of being dishonest, even though it is a logical fear she has because of those many terrible years? How do I keep that sadness, fear, and frustration I feel at those times from knocking me back down into a quivering bowl of jelly, unable to help her recover? I know HOW to do it, I guess. But I have a terrible time invoking that knowledge and overriding the gut feelings I have at the time.


OK Doc, here goes 'nuthin.

"and I became defensive"

Let's put you to work .... Explain to me EXACTLY what you were defending.
That is to say, WHAT principle/value were you defending?

If something is sooooooo important to you that you need to be defensive towards DWG, it better be an important VALUE or PRINCIPLE that you are speaking up about.

OK?
Try starting there.

After you answer that, then we can discuss the following:

Quote:


How do I help her and make her understand that I am not the guy I was all those years, that I have EP's in place that are sacrosanct to me, and that I can be trusted? How



Because, unless you were defending an important principle/value, you are NOT fully the new GUY .... But still a work in progress becoming the new guy.




I need to think about that for a bit, because it seems like a crucial question. My first thought is that I was not really defending anything except myself against an accusation that was both untrue and dismissive of all the hard work I have put into purging my old demons, making myself into a loving, reliable, and trustworthy human being and husband devoted only to DWG, devoted to her recovery, and with strong and effective EP's that I wrote and take more seriously than life, itself. The principle, I guess, was my truthfulness and fidelity and devotion to her, my transparency, the hard work I have made in transforming myself and dedication to healing her and our marriage. These are all things that she has reason to doubt because of my long history of self-absorbed, resentful, immature, secretive, duplicitous, and digusting thinking and behavior that almost destroyed her and made her entire adult life into a nighmare of pain. In fact, I guess that answers my own question. The old GM spent 26 years being that guy, but only the last year and a half devoted to her and to being a grown-up, loving and faithful husband. And really only in the last 6-12 months have I truly learned to become the person she thought she married. That's not much, compared to her long agony. She made a false accusation that seemed to dismiss all that I have made my life's work to being, and because I have worked so hard to discard that old person so completely, it seemed threatening and dismissive, and I became defensive.

I guess that answers my own question. 6 months or a year is not much compared to her long history with me. So, I guess there really IS no principle or value I was defending other than the absolute level of my commitment to her. Though that seems like everything to me, to her it is a brief side-trip that she fears will inevitably lead back to my original path. To me, the idea of deceiving and betraying her ever again seems so ludicrous and so outrageously impossible for me now, that an accusation that I was doing just that, not possibly but definitely, threatened the fortress wall that I have so painstakingly built against that happening. I can tell you, Pepperband, without question that the chances of my ever being unfaithful, with the precautions I have in place, and with the agonizing changes I have undergone as a human being, are so remote, that the accusation that is so logical for her, is beyond comprehension for me.

Is that what you mean by principle or value? Maybe there is something else I am missing here. I want to know, if there is. In the meantime, no matter how late it is, or how tired I am, or how bad a day I have had, I will try to remember that my efforts and transformation are to her like a brief interlude about to end at any moment. Being defensive against an accusation like that is what is actually ludicrous and seems more like the old GM than the new one. I should not expect her to have much faith in me for a very long time.

You are the greatest, PB. Thanks for answering and getting me to think and understand this episode better. (I sound like Bill Murray in "What About Bob?" smile )

- GM


Last edited by GreenMile; 06/29/10 04:01 PM.

FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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I am way cuter than Bill Murray.

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If I may, Doc, venture a guess.
It seems you were reflexively defensive.
With no real thought/principle/ value behind your defensiveness.

You want to enjoy DWG's admiration, don't you?
Reflexive defensiveness will trigger her, every time.

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Oh YES you ARE


BS 52, FWH 53, Married 1-1-84
D-day 5-14-07, WH moved in with OW
Plan A 9 months, DARK Plan B 3-17-08 until 3-2-09
WH and OW broke up 1-09
Started over 7-09
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In other words, ego defensiveness is not a good choice for you.

Take care.

Pepster

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Originally Posted By: Pepperband
I am way cuter than Bill Murray.


Of that, I am sure.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Originally Posted By: Pepperband
In other words, ego defensiveness is not a good choice for you.

Take care.

Pepster


No, m'am. Its not. Thanks.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Originally Posted By: GreenMile

I could tell she was agitated, worn out, and feeling uncomfortable before,




Do you understand why she was agitated?

When you do, the natural response would be....

compassion.



Quote:

and then she lowered the boom, accusing me of seeing and having sex with my old affair partner.




Does this not seem to you like a logical conclusion based on her personal experience?



Quote:

I tried to my best recollection to explain why things were moved around in the car,



I would appreciate more detail here, GM. Exactly what explanation...or explanations....did you offer?

Were they truthful?



Quote:

but she became angrier and angrier and more accusative.



What do you think caused her more anger?



Quote:

I had had a bad rehearsal and was tired and agitated myself, and I became defensive. That made her worse, which caused me to become angry instead of lovingly supportive.



See my response above...

When you understand WHY she was already agitated, your response will be very different than defensive.



Quote:

I have made a lot of progress in the last year (I think), and we have been resuming MB lessons.



Progress over the last year...or last 10 years...will mean very little to a BS who is faced with a situation where it appears their FWH may have been unfaithful yet again.

We were gaslighted, tricked, and manipulated before. We are no longer naive enough to think it not possible to once again be gaslighted, tricked and manipulated.




Quote:

I suggested that she call our director in the morning to confirm I was at the rehearsal, but her anger and agitation just accelerated and pushed me into a state of frustration, and I became defensive.


It might have been more helpful to provide the proof yourself. I don't know...ask DWG's LATER if that would have helped her at all.



Quote:

I had been doing much better handling these episodes, but this just knocked her waaay back.



This should tell you something...

What?




Quote:

I don't know how to make myself stop getting defensive and make myself become calm, comforting, and reassuring,




I do....

STOP IT!




Quote:

especially when I am not at my best because of any frustrating circumstances going on at the time.



If your music rehearsals are causing you to become frustrated and aggravated, and causing DWG to be triggered, why do you participate in them?




Quote:
How do I help her and make her understand that I am not the guy I was all those years,



By not being that guy.

Defensiveness IS that guy.

She's seen it many times before over the years, hasn't she, GM? So you ARE THAT guy when you respond to her hurt with defensiveness.

Her conclusion was very logical IMO. I would have come to the same conclusion if in the same situation tst responded to me defensively.

A defensive person is often acting that way because they are hiding something.


Quote:

that I have EP's in place that are sacrosanct to me, and that I can be trusted?



Let me point out the obvious. Or at least, it is the obvious to any BS.

A FWS can have the most stellar EPs in place, and can at any moment decide to ignore them.

When tst goes to work, I KNOW that he COULD choose to meet up with OW on any given day. Just now he called to ask if I was comfortable with him stopping by a friend's business to check on him while on his way home from work. I admit, it causes me a twinge of panic as I contemplate...is he telling me the truth? I mean, these are the same types of excuses he came up with during the affair.

A BS's reality is that IF the FWS ever decides to get involved with OW, they CAN find a way...and still appear to be living within EPs.

So, no, I don't even consider stellar EPs as a pass to be "automatically trusted".



Quote:

How do I not become sad and frightened, when I am accused of being dishonest, even though it is a logical fear she has because of those many terrible years?


GM, the only answer is to CHOOSE to not be that and then you ACT upon your choice. She is making very logical conclusions, whether they are correct or not.


Happily married to HerPapaBear



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I am relatively new compared to the sages on here, but I am a FWW, almost 4 years out from D-Day. And we went through a lot of the hills and valleys you describe (I guess everyone does). One thing that helped me was to understand that when DH triggered and worried about what I might be doing or who I might be talking to, he was responding to the hell I had put him through, not always how hard I was trying right at that moment. In other words, just because he triggered did not mean I was not changing, and just because I was changing did not mean he would not trigger. In my mind, I KNEW I was completely repentant and doing everything I could to repair our marriage. In his mind, I was the only woman he had ever been with, the one he trusted, and the one who slept with his daughter's guitar teacher. He still couldn't really be sure WHO I was yet.

I wish I could point to a magic date and say on THIS day the affair stopped being a major mile marker in our M. It just got better, two steps forward one step back. And for awhile now, though it is something terrible that I did in the past, it isn't something that hangs in the air.

On those days when everything I did reminded DH of what I had done, I learned to try to see our journey through his eyes and to say "I am so sorry that I have caused you to have to endure this. I want to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to make things right. Tell me what you need or need to know, and I will move heaven and earth to get there." Yes, DH still got angry and distant and sad at times, but he knew I was there, ready for whatever he needed me to do.

I hope that's helpful.

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Originally Posted By: lurioosi2
I am relatively new compared to the sages on here, but I am a FWW, almost 4 years out from D-Day. And we went through a lot of the hills and valleys you describe (I guess everyone does). One thing that helped me was to understand that when DH triggered and worried about what I might be doing or who I might be talking to, he was responding to the hell I had put him through, not always how hard I was trying right at that moment. In other words, just because he triggered did not mean I was not changing, and just because I was changing did not mean he would not trigger. In my mind, I KNEW I was completely repentant and doing everything I could to repair our marriage. In his mind, I was the only woman he had ever been with, the one he trusted, and the one who slept with his daughter's guitar teacher. He still couldn't really be sure WHO I was yet.

I wish I could point to a magic date and say on THIS day the affair stopped being a major mile marker in our M. It just got better, two steps forward one step back. And for awhile now, though it is something terrible that I did in the past, it isn't something that hangs in the air.

On those days when everything I did reminded DH of what I had done, I learned to try to see our journey through his eyes and to say "I am so sorry that I have caused you to have to endure this. I want to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to make things right. Tell me what you need or need to know, and I will move heaven and earth to get there." Yes, DH still got angry and distant and sad at times, but he knew I was there, ready for whatever he needed me to do.

I hope that's helpful.


Luri, you're my heeeeerooooooo! hug


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Good to see you posting again!

This is an easy one. Offer to take a lie detector test.

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Very good idea believer. I always forget about that one.

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