bhm �

Some of your story still is not clear to me. Some off-the-top-of-my-head questions (apologies if these are answered in subsequent posts - I either missed it or I still don�t get it) and some related things for you to think about at three in the morning:

Why did she get fired so long ago? Specifically, was it because of the workplace adultery? And two at once in the same workplace! (That�s an exclamation point, not a question mark.) Sheesh!

Has she been fired, or left under odd circumstances, from any other job since? It will be connected if so. I�d bet on it.

Does she work outside of the home now? Any male colleagues make your radar ping?

Has she had subsequent contact with any of these OMs that you know of? Note: She will lie.

What was going on with her way back then? Some personal or family crisis? May be hard to remember now, but if you can�t immediately recall anything significant then there probably wasn�t. It was just her grabbing her, err, opportunities and whatever.

What is this health issue? Not the details, but is it chronic? Is it terminal? Is she becoming disabled and you will be changing her depends for the rest of your natural life? Don�t be a martyr for her. The pay stinks, and there are no benefits to speak of.

How long had you been married when she was doing OMs� thing? You will find strong recommendations on this site for the BS to cut and run as fast as they can if relatively recently married and especially if no children.

Look, you may not want to hear this, but the prognosis recovering from an LTA and any adultery lied about for so many years is not good. I would quote Dr Harley on his published prognosis of recovering from an LTA, but all the old relevant threads are mixed in with the former MB server�s ashes, and the MB search routine can�t find it's own left foot let alone what I know used to be in the letters and articles. But let me paraphrase: Recovering from an LTA is very, very difficult. It can be done, but success is rare.

It is way too early for you to decide if you want to stay married to your adulteress. You will not know what you should do for a long time yet. It is said (c.f. Torn Asunder) it takes the average BS about 2 years or as long as the adultery lasted, whichever is longer, to recover. You can add to that the amount of time they lied about it and/or hid it afterwards. So you have years to decide. Do not let anyone push you into some artificial compressed timeline.

It took me about five years from the 2�nd D-Day of my wife�s 10 year-long VLTA (Very Long Term Adultery) to decide I didn�t want to be married to her any more. I still had five years left on my timeline, but that�s when I finally knew I wanted out.

Give yourself all the time you need. All the time you want.

One of the problems you face is all the years of lying. Both while in the LTA and all the years of her actively hiding it afterwards (if indeed it has even been truly afterwards these past 15 years.) The crap she did is a big red flag for future conduct.

Adulterers all lie through their teeth. No surprises there. They lie to their spouse, their family, their children, their friends, their coworkers... They lie to themselves. Believe it or not they even lie, especially lie, to their OPs. They lie by commission and they lie by omission (a particular specialty of adulterers.) Three things make this important to you in you assessment of what to do with your tainted marriage and your not what you thought it was life now:

1. Adulterers in an LTA get lying down to an art form. Lying becomes part of their nature. They become a walking talking living lie. Their actions have gone on for so long it becomes who they really are.

2. Any adulterer who successfully hides their adulteries for years become, well, see number 1.

3. She is still lying. She is saying what she thinks you want to hear. She acting (and I do mean acting) the way she thinks will get her though this temporary episode of partial discovery. Period. A lie itself is who she is, now. I do not believe for a moment all she did is what she says she did. Nor do I believe there were only, what, two or was it then three? No, this is a genuine lifestyle she is still trying to minimize. She is still lying to herself.

This means you and I lived part of their lie with and for them. We lived a lie for their selfish entitled needs. We didn�t know it, but our lives became a lie too. This is particularly hard to take. This eats at you day and night. This does not go away with time. At least it hasn�t for me. This realization made it impossible for me to recover, actually, unless I am a liar too.

BS respondents in MC surveys routinely say the hardest thing to get past is the lies. Even harder that the sex for most BS. Wow, and here we have as LTA�s a lifetime of lies.

You will hear lots of former adulterers, and former adulterer apologists, say people can change. Not that I notice. Not, IMO, adulterers. And not LTA adulterers in particular. They did it for too long and they lied about it for too long. They have beome who they really are. People Of The Lie.

Do you think your wife is not what she has actually and really been practicing at for almost half her life now?

In the end, you should know, LTA adulterers do not love their spouse. They don�t really even like their spouse. They haven�t for all those many years.


OK, my last piece of cheap advice:

Ignore me.
Call the MB counseling center.
You really, really need their expertise.

Absolutely.....positively.....polygraph.

Well, OK. A poly may well catch some current lies. Or force some measure of truth to specific questions of the moment. And maybe not.

But LTA liars continue to lie after the polygraph. They can't seem to help it.

So I don't see much of a return on the investment.

People on here are polygraph happy. They're not reliable and can read things incorrectly. I can say that as someone who took one.

The affair was 15 years ago. How has your marriage been since?

You're focusing too much on the idea that the affair would have continued if she hadn't been fired.

She could have continued it even though she was fired. It's not hard to do.

Aphelion
She was fired for an unrelated issue if I had done what I wante dto at the time and followed she and all involved would have been fired as soon as I caught them.
Her health issue is something that I thought she may recover from but now not sure. she can't drive at this time. PM me and I will give you more info.
As for contact back when she was fired I think she told me one of them called and invited her to lunch but she did not go not sure why not. I know it is strange as soon as she was fired they stopped contacting her. Guess they moved on to someone else. And yes there was one time since she was fired where she kissed and touched another much younger man but she says that is as far as it went because she felt guilty. I think it was because of his age. Not sure I believe all of it though.
At this time I am trying to get her health back to where she could work and drive and then I will make final decision. At this time I do not believe I will ever be happy with her again after what she did only 3 or 4 years into our marriage and only a year or so after our last was born.
As for issues in our marriage at that time the only major issue we had was with my step son who was always causing trouble.

To be perfectly honest with you, this is a marriage building site. We would LOVE to help you get your marriage back but we all understand perfectly the reasons you might not want that. You are posting here and that leads me to believe you either want help to recover the M or just help to recover yourself. Both are fine but I am confused and would like to help with what you want help with.

Every single one of us has felt as you do, all for various reasons. My reasons happen to be similar to yours. Again, to be perfectly honest this is very very hard work. Your WW will have to be truly remorseful after all of this to even make you feel like pushing ahead. There are recovered marriages here from LTA's and there are marriages that are not. It just depends on how much the WS is willing to help the BS heal and how much both commit to the program. If you just want to have help to get through the illness so you can leave that is again, another issue.

To be clear, most of us have waffled back and forth between saving and recovering at first. I did not go back through your posts before posting this but it seems you only want to recover yourself and be able to make it through this illness so you can then leave. Could you be more specific? Maybe I am being thickheaded. Nobody is going to judge you if you just want the latter but I know I don't know what else to say if I don't know what your really really want in your heart. Do you really know that yet?

I would love for it to work out but part of does not see any way I can stay with what she did. The main problem is she did not stop what she was doing.

I was sitting right here wondering if you had replied when you did!

Look, most BS's do not stop until they are forced to. My H did not stop until I busted him. Many people here have to plan A their spouse while the A is still going on. I can't think of too much worse than that. As I said before, it is very hard and not for sissy's . If you want to do this you have all the support you could ever want here. Just put it out there and wait for response. I did not think I could live through what happened to me and the A info was not all out for months and months, it was hit after hit. We are so much better now. Does it still bother me and hurt? You bet it does. Still, things are slowly getting better. Your pain right now is horrible, unbearable but if you have not start reading all the threads here and you will see. We all think our situation is unique and most horrible but in fact they are pretty much all the same when it comes down to it.

You have no idea how many times I wonder how you are doing during the day. I feel so badly for you dealing with everything you are dealing with right now but it will begin to get better when you have a plan to work on.

I've purposefully avoided any reading of this thread, I don't like the title! It hits too close to home.

So, I've just read the last few posts.

LTA's, it's hard, it's soooooo hard. The years of being lied to seem to be the toughest for me to hurdle over.
Thinking back over the years that the A was going on and then relating that time to everything that was going on in our life and our M.
How much was real, was any of it real.

Like DWG has said, although it's tough, it is possible. It does get better, then worse, then better ......
I personally think that it takes so much longer for fog to lift when a WS has been wayward for so long, years rather than months or weeks.

Good luck, you are not alone, in rebuilding, in wanting to D or wanting to recover yourself.

Like I said many times I think it would be easier on me if it was not for the act she was doing for these men. This was something she had only done with me. All she ever got out of it was them just touching her and kissing her. She was just giving them pleasure so it was not just for sex. One of them did have a hotel booked but had to cancel so she never actually got to have IC with him and that is the one she really wanted. The other she said she did oral with him just to keep him from talking if he found out about the other. This makes me sick. I asked her how does it feel to know she did them more in 4 years than she had done me in over 20 years. Since she was doing them daily.
There are times when I think I should just forget it since it was so long ago. But when I think of how she told me she loved me as she was going out the door with one of them it makes me sick and want to RUN.
I keep telling her if she had only stopped at any time I may be able to look at her different. Instead of stopping she was going to continue and even do more with the one she had feelings for.

I am not in any way minimizing what you are feeling but BHM, we ALL have to deal with the same things. My husband husbanded his last OP, he took care of her and bought her expensive things and left me totally alone eventually but when it was really going strong he told me we were 100% so we could build our house on my farm. He knew he did not even really like me, he loved her. It was the height of their love and passion but he promised me it was OK, he was not going anywhere, I would not lose my farm because of him leaving and he loved me. It was our new start. Our 25th wedding anniversary trip was to NYC. Somewhere we had always talked about going and he was seemingly not happy with going, not really. I did not know why but it was because he was in love with her and did not even want to be with me. Heck, just last night he told me that it was OK because he was only gone for a few days. Our 25h wedding anniversary.

I suggest you look around at all the threads. We all have this kind of thing to deal with. We can help you deal but you have to know that we are doing this because we understand, we all have these things and we all feel your pain.

To get yourself on track you are going to have to give that up a little bit of painful info, make it a little less important right now than recovery and decide how you want this to go. You will not forget it but you are killing yourself over it. Yes it hurts as bad as anything possibly can but if you want to recover you have to learn to put it aside for the sake of making and using a plan. She will have to know what she needs to do as well. Are you certain there has been no one else, at least recently? Maybe knowing would not matter anymore at this point, we all have a point where we have had enough info. Decide what that is for you and we can move on. Polygraph? You might want to think about that. Have you done everything to snoop out anything more that might have been going on? Will she commit to helping you because you need to be healed. I understand you are having to care for her at this moment and possibly for a long time to come but she is going to have to find it in herself to heal you.

I have to say that I feel woefully inadequate giving you suggestions. My FWH was about the worst there is and I am nowhere near recovery, just beginning and it is still one step forward, 5 steps back but we are both committed to doing this and that helps a great deal. Last night was one of the most painful I have had in a long long time. That is good. It used to be 24/7 of that pain. It was partly because I happened to find her mugshot on the internet and find out she was not the ugly hag GM told me she was. Whatever, today is a new day. I can sleep later but I have work to do on my marriage that she has nothing to do with anymore. So you see, it does get better. I hope those with more experience will come along and help you, there are some right above this post. Listen to all of us and lean on us but try try try to let go of some of that pain. It will always be there waiting for you. Read the site, order SAA from the bookstore and formulate something positive to start the ball rolling. We can help with that or we can read what you come up with and believe me, no one is shy about telling you that something you are thinking about will not work. I will try to look back into my not so distant past and drag out all the things that helped me. If you have the time read it yourself, I had some amazing help. It starts out bad and then gets worse and worse and here I am a year later feeling better. Action and a plan. This is the place my friend. Release yourself just a tiny bit for a while and read.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2257665&page=1

brokenheartedman,

First I think you are looking at this all wrong. I am not talking about your feelings concerning her long ago affairs. I am talking about you ignoring her online affairs as recently as Jan of this year.

What has she said about these affairs?

You see the really deadly things are the emotional attachments, I know us guys focus on the physical, but the real betrayal is her emotionally focusing on those guys years ago, and the new guys on the computer. Any working girl can give a BJ, charge for it and leave. No attachment at all. However, a woman that gives herself emotionally to a man is a woman that doesn't think much of her husband and she is likely to be willing to give herself physically.

If there is anything I have learned big time on this site is that women most often attach emotionally and will do the physical to keep the attachment to the man they are emotionally attached to. You don't know the whole story because you are focused on her physcial betrayal, the real and deep issues are her emotional attachement to these men...ALL OF THEM.

Your marriage has no chance if she is constantly seeking emotional attachments to men. Her "oral attachment" may bother you a lot, but deep down that isn't the problem. The problem is you have a woman that can emotionally attach to men, and then just use you for the support you give her and your family.

Worse you have years of this behavior to consider. Please start to focus on her latest affairs and start to understand what was really going on in her head.

I wish I could offer you some really good advice, but I do hope something I have said is of help to you.

God Bless,

JL

The sad part of her LTA's was the fact that she only had feelings for 1 of them the other was just so he would not talk if he found out about the other. She says she don't remember why she did not stop. As for the online/phone issues that started from a stupid game and grew from there. She says there was no feelings but the chats say different. She had the same problem online 10 yrs ago and I thought that had been worked out. If it had not been for the online this time I never would have found out about the actual affairs years ago. When she would not delete accounts I asked just how many d***s she had touched since we had been married and she answered honestly this time. I had asked her in the past if she had done anything she wanted to tell me and she always said no she had nothing to hide. She is not the person I thought she was. She was very active in Church and actually got me to going. During the time of activity with these men she was a teacher in Sunday school.

BHM,

Churches are for sinners and it seems church was definitely a place she needed to be and needs to be.

I will repeat, your issues with her are more about what she is doing now, not what she did then. She is an accomplished liar, and she is a serial cheater. If this marriage is to survive you need to quit focusing on the BJ's from long ago and focus on the real issues. She could give you BJ's from now until you die but if she is still seeking other men for emotional connections, your marriage will never work.

Focus on the marriage issues, focus on the trust issues, on the honesty issues.

God Bless,

JL

Just
You are correct about her issues and I have asked her why she has to keep looking for support from someone else and she can't answer. I hope she figures this out during her counseling. Even if this issue is solved I am not sure I can make it. When I think of all she has done through the years that has caused problems in our marriage. Don't get me wrong I have done plenty myself that has caused problems but nothing as bad as what she has done. Whether we make it or not I would like for her to resolve her issues. I know she had a rough childhood but that is no excuse for her behavior.

Even with all she has done there are times I want us to make it. Then there are times where I can't stop berating her for what she did. There is absolutely no excuse for what she she did. When I am in the mood to forgive her it hurts me for what I have said. She is physically sick at times from what has happened. But I just don't know if I can ever trust her again since I have been hurt so bad.

BHM,

It is normal for you to waver between wanting to dump her and wanting to save the marriage. Perfectly normal so don't worry about it right now. You are also right there is no excuse for what she has done. But, there may be reasons, deep reasons, even dating back to her family of origin, FOO. If there are these can and need to be addressed.

As for deserving forgiveness, or even earning forgiveness, that is a complex question. Forgiveness is forgiving a debt that can never be repaid. It is also done for you more than her. At some point you will need to lay down what you are carrying and that comes with forgiveness.

Are you ready to forgive her now? Probably not. I always thought that someone needs to seek forgiveness before you forgive them. I personally, and this is a person thought, think that forgiveness is a gift that cannot be earned but some times is deserved.

You are just starting this whole process and progress is measured in months and sometimes years. You are well within your right to walk away and no one here will chastize you for that. But as long as the thought of staying with her comes to your mind you should try and see if the marriage can be rebuilt. You will never regret giving your best effort no matter how this turns out.

Hang in there.

JL

She was abused as a child and we talked a lot about this before we got married and she said she did not feel the way she had about men in the past. She has a history of cheating and I thought it would be different with me but I guess I was wrong.
She is not in a position to cheat at this time since she can't drive but I don't know if that will always be the case. Even if I know she will never even think of cheating again I still am not sure I truly want to stay.
Will I be better off without her NO. Will I be better off with her NO. That is why I am confused about what I really want. It would only be a separation instead of divorce because she would need my health insurance.
I keep asking why she has to look outside for emotional support and she can't answer.

She is very depressed all she does is cry and sleep. I don't know if it is because of what she did or if she is just upset with the way I am responding at this time.

BHM,

My guess it is both. She would be happier if you were happy and you did not hold up that darned mirror for her to see herself.

Take plenty of time and relax right now. You are in a position to do nothing and have it be productive. Take that opportunity.

God Bless,

JL