I dont know how to do friends on this forum, but I bookmarked your thread. I remember on your OP, the "I havent stolen or cheated on tests or anything, but...". I read that and thought, "I have done those things..." The last time was when I walked out of a wal-mart at age 15 with about $1500 worth of electronics and junk. Not a proud moment. Got buzzed at the door by the sensor but didnt get stopped or caught. Made me think "WTF am I doing? What is wrong with me? Is this waht I really want?" I had a really smart way of doing it and had been very successful, but deep down, I knew what I was doing was wrong and didnt like myself for doing it.

If you have indeed decided to change regardless, then we are definately in a similar boat.

As I understand it, trust is relatively easily given. It is just as easy, if not easier, to break that trust. Once broken, tust is MUCH more difficult to repair.

With that said, we are both in the boat of trust (my wife doesnt trust me not to neglect her) having been broken, and now must be repaired before we can hope our W's will want to stick around.

Its easy to say that "this time its gonna be different," but I have the feeling we both have said this before and it wasnt different.

All we can do now is show it is different. Day in, day out, as long as it takes.

I have a thread too, not sure if you really want to roll through about 4.5 pages of my rambling. I am mostly using it as a place to store my thoughts and reread later to check for progress and stuff like that. Its called "My thread" and it gets bumped about every other day when I add updates to it or more if other people stop in and say hi.

This same post was made on my thread - LionOrGazelle.

This is a post from the spouse of HBS. My user name is LionOrGazelle if you want to see my posts. I thought you all might want to see a more complete picture rather than one sided versions considering there are so many of you seeing both of our posts but in the dark.

I received an "off MB" post from MBS from a post I made and decided I would stop the cycle of secrecy and deceit by exposing both of us to all of you. Some of you have read and posted on both of our threads.

I have seen the MB forum as an ultimate say place - as a way to have honesty with anonymity. There is no reason on earth that someone could not be honest with the other members here because you will never know us in our real lives. I was hoping it would be a way for HBS to have a network of people he could learn to be open and honest with that did not cause him so much distress from his known peers for being "less than perfect" and judge. I do not want to be the person who holds him accountable as Sandy and Dr. Harley have stated he so desperately needs. But the forum can be if he is willing to use it to its fullest open potential.

My original thread - Questionning myself in MN
His Original thread - First Post-Accountability and Honesty.

A major issue in our past relationship is lying and dishonesty by HBS. He has admitted it over several years, through numerous letters and apologies, through counseling and his earlier section on this very thread. It is on going, constant, pervasive and never ending.

In my thread, I posted a question on honesty and he emailed me off MB to address it. I thought his reply would better serve him and me by being open and honest on MB, rather than personally by email. I also know people have posted on both of our threads and likely did not know we are married (currently separated), that maybe we viewed the online MB program in March so are both in the public forum and the private forum with Dr. Harley, that we are both frequent posters and readers on MB, and both read the posts we each make. He even acknowledges that I will likely read his posts, which if you knew us, you would know that we both know how active we each read stuff.

I also posted an example that is real, but I changed it to read as if I was doing it. It was HBS that was being dishonest but I did not want to write this "he did, he said" email so I made it about me. The answers should not be the same but I was hoping if I made it about me, I would not be putting him down. But it is a real text and call exchange that occurred recently.

I posted a specific post here on May 12th within my thread: Re: May 12th Post His reply off MB was:

D, I will answer your question from MB directly on my own behalf. It was absolutely a lie, but is it a justified lie? Sandy told me it was a gray area. I am trying to get advice from the forum on the request you've made of me. It is a request that Sandy, and Steve Harley state I should say no to, and I want additional feedback from the forum before I answer what appears to be an incredibly important question. I don�t have the luxury that most MB posters have of knowing their spouse has no clue about MB. You are on the forum, and I would rather get my advice and digest it on my own, without knowing that you�ve seen all of the various opinions. For that reason, I did not tell you I posted originally on Monday at 12:30, nor about my follow-up posts.

Veteran MB posters tell newbies all the time, �Don�t tell your spouse about this site�. Is that a lie to the spouse, when that newbie is actively posting and getting advice? It certainly is a lie by omission, but it is obviously a justified lie in their, opinion.

I expect the answer you will get to your question will without a doubt be a chorus of �Of course it�s a lie!� But anyone so saying will not have been given all of the information. I am working hard to be honest with you (and others) on all issues under the current difficult circumstances, and I will continue to do so� J

Now..knowing what I know about MB principals, not telling your spouse might be true for people trying to save marriages where there spouses were not the ones that introduced them to MB. I introduced HBS to MB as I have been fairly aware of it for many years. I have come across it several times for different reasons: researching pain during sex, honesty in marriage, meeting needs, etc. Until we took the online program I had never gone through it in as much detail but the MB system is what I have nearly always believed my whole life even before I stumbled across it. And our issues and the reason I have proceeded with a separation is that HBS is dishonest and when he feels "caught" will lie or justify.

You have all posted various things about me to him. I thought I would set the record straight and hope you feel like you can ask me anything instead of relying on his version of information. So many of the things he has posted as "she didn't say" is him not being willing to ask.

I asked him very early on if he was receiving "private messages" off of MB, I stated I did not think it was a good idea considering he has such a strong drive to lie and attempt to gain sympathy that without a public forum, it puts him at a serious disadvantage to honesty. When I asked, he said, "I didn't know you could do that". He has said nothing else since then but I would be willing to guess he knew when he started going off MB with other members as he has, that he did not want me to know because I had already said I did not think it was a good idea. But like a typical pattern in our M, he decided to disregard my feelings and went private on MB anyways when I asked him about it today. When I asked him, he replied with a question (why do you want to know). Then said he was not willing to answer because he thinks I didn't answer his question about an EA.

I AM NOT HAVING AN EA! I am not having one with one person, with several people, as a group, in a meeting, through forums, or "in an amalgam" as I think he stated in a thread. I don't have time while trying to earn enough extra money to save our house and avoid bankruptcy (we had to take $ from our ROTHs to make this month's mortgage), trying to take care of 3 kids under 5, keep up a house, manage family relationships and take time for myself. I have not been to the gym since March, but HBS has. I don't have my family out to help with the kids when it is my nights, I do it on my own, but he has them out 75% of the time. I am lonely, withdrawn and isolated. This forum was the closest thing I thought I was going to have to a safe haven but I feel it has been hijacked by his dishonesty and his attempts to gain sympathy and friends.

HBS played online poker and participated in numerous chats and forums with poker people all over the world. He got his EN met through poker, chats/forums, porn and alcohol, and I have no idea what else. He spends so much energy trying to make it seem like the reason he is lying is I am having an EA. No PA. No EA. Nothing. I am definitely lonely and I need someone to talk to and connect with, and I would love to get my EN met by someone else and I will not be getting them met by a lying dishonest manipulative HBS, but I am not in love with HBS and I am not in love with anyone else. I daydream about others coming to my rescue and meeting my ENs so I am not so alone.

Recently I decided to "level the playing field". HBS has a laptop I don't use or see, so I decided to put a password on my home computer so I had some privacy too. He seems to strive on privacy and if he wants MB replies private, then why am I not entitled to the same? He used to have the password to BOTH the home earthlink and my personal hotmail account. I have never had his. I changed mine. I do not get private messages on or off MB and I don' want any. If you have something to say to me, say it here, don't hide behind secrecy.

I stopped answering the questions I know he was trying to ask even though he didn't ask it. Now, I will answer very narrowly only the question asked and nothing else. I will choose to lie by omission because I can and it is how HBS still chooses to treat me. If he thinks it is so healthy for a relationship or good MB practices to lie, omit, twist words, manipulate people or situations, then I can easily do the same.

HBS is a very intelligent litigation attorney. It is his job to control information, elicit the "right" responses, and get the outcome he desires. he is very good at his job. In court, you are told to only answer the question given, and nothing else. It is the other party's job to ask the right question. He uses words I have to look up in a dictionary (despite the fact that I am also college educated) and controls conversations with circular talk and redirection.

BTinTrouble...I feel terrible. You posted on my thread that you were impressed by me. I saw you were posting on HBS's thread too. I see he did not say any now...thing Looking at my spouse to you but he knows you posted. Seeing my ranting craziness above...I am sure you are less than impressed right now. I am sorry to have disappointed you and everyone else thought that I sounded somewhat sane. I am, lately most of the time. But the world created by HBS does send me over the edge and I don't recover well.

And I am ranting and venting because I have no one else to vent to...I am not having an EA because if I was, I would not be wasting my time with this forum. If I do not get this out and have my meltdown, I can't get myself together to go get my kids up and have a great time with them.

So yes, I locked him out of the home computer, I stopped answering his questions with unfiltered honesty as I had for so many years, I am choosing not to spend any time with HBS, I am proceeding as a single parent (not a single person) because I do not believe HBS will change his ways to save any marriage with me. He has told me he can't stop lying so I do not have reason to believe things will change. And I would never accept any decision to consider reconciliation on my part without two things: 1) A plan in place that allows OTHERS to hold him accountable to lies, and 2) an ownership and honest recounting of the lies in the past (historical honesty). For me, I cannot consider HBS to be the one to meet my EN until I know both the historical dishonesty and a describable plan to be held accountable.

He has told me he will not account for his historical dishonesty without me agreeing to the same. I can understand his position and if that is the ultimate position he wants to take, that is fine with me. He states he is working hard at being honest with me and others on all other issues but he is not, as it is still selective, partial and controlled honesty.

He has told me that he is being advised by Sandy & Dr. Harley that he will not disclose historical dishonesty under the current circumstances and he does not have a plan he can or will articulate or demonstrate that he is being honest and accountable. Other posters have suggested a 12-step program and possibly AA considering the alcohol use. In AA, you do not demand or wait for others to amend to you, you own your own issues and move forward in your healthy ways. You don�t say you will only acknowledge past hurtful behaviors and apologize for them if the other person says so too. I would support HBS attending an AA program because I do believe his alcohol use can be abusive and is definitely used both to cope and as a justification for poor behavior or choices (for example, one time he got too drunk and that was his excuse for swimming naked during the day in a public lake with his group of male and female friends with pictures taken when I was not there and had already stated that they did this last year and I did not want him participating, or another time when I found a bar condom in our car and he said he did not buy it for someone else but for us even though I have an allergic vaginal reaction to most foreign materials so we didn't use condoms and then he said he was too drunk and can't remember where he bought it, when and with whom.)

So...I love the sane person I can be when I am not in the tornado of craziness I am with HBS. I can be that person when I am not sucked into this chaos and insanity. His dishonesty is like a drug addiction in our relationship and that is why I have chosen to disengage. I will not engage as a spouse or a co-parent with HBS in the state as he is.

So, if you want to ask me something, do it. If you want to help HBS, help him be open and honest with you and keep him accountable in this forum publicly. Help him focus on what he can do for himself and maybe find a group or AA to help him in his process.

If you think he isn't lying to you now, you are kidding yourself the same way I did for 13 years. He may not make up wild lies like he went on an African safari, but he controls every last word he puts into his posts so that he can "win in the court of his peers".

Sorry, just couldn't keep it in any longer.

Keeping it in from MB, BT or HBS, any longer?

I think radical honesty will improve your life and your intimacy, Lion (I just cannot bring myself to call you LOG).

I know you didn't say...I figure many MB readers/lurkers/posters still knew that HBS was your spouse.

And it's super tough, what he's going through...and very painful for what you've been through.

And if he would go to AA, then please go to Alanon...because you really have many of the same "symptoms" yourself for being the partner of an addict...

consider his addiction to lying...

and how radical honesty is a boundary that goes around you...so he can't cross it. What's been missing.

In your posts, there are so many other parts of the whole...do you believe in yourself? Do you believe in HBS? It's a choice...because he's so capable in so many ways...and it's unreasonable for an addict to just stop one day...and never do his addiction again. Check yourself for that hidden belief...that if he would, then I wouldn't...because that's the lie we tell ourselves. Our choice.

And we can stop.

You both seem to share how important self-image is to you both...not unreasonable...very human. Would you consider reading "Healing the Shame that binds us" by John Bradshaw?

If you keep seeing HBS as wanting to win, just not your admiration, your approval...then you will "feel" at a loss, justify your resentment...

Your choice, not his. He cannot justify lying...and you cannot justify resenting. You each have patterns, issues, and your marriage has both of you in one union...and it's own issues.

You, of all people, understand that your H cannot control how others see him...he sure can choose to experience life as if he can...

until he can't anymore. He's there, Lion...where lies break apart our human mandate...to know and be known...

Same for you...to really be known and to really know your spouse, your partner. Sure is difficult...and I do know about lying...and yes, my DH said the same thing...that he will always lie...

and I chose not to believe him. I wait and see. I don't judge...and I don't buy in...and I have compassion for his struggle with dishonesty...

and don't lose focus on my own struggle with resentment...my own drug...and when I justify, I lie.

You're not alone.

LA

Hi LA-

My reply was too long IMO so I am going to cut it into parts for easier digestion.

(First series):

Keeping it in...just more of a reference to what felt like was a vomiting of information. I don't like it when I give into the frustration and isolation and rant. Life with HBS is a constant moving target so I don't really (very seldom) engage in his game. So I keep quiet, focus on my kids, working, and trying to take care of myself physically (not great in the eating/ sleeping category) and mentally. It is nearly 1am (when I started, now 3:24). I need to be up at 5:30. Another night of little to no sleep.

I like Lion, but LOG doesn't bother me. Either is good by me.

It is tough I am sure. If it wasn't, he would have made different choices a long time ago. Yes there is pain.

I have likened his lying to addiction in past posts. It does feel that way to me. I have some guilt over feeling/writing it that way because I know being with a full blown "real" addict is more serious, but I do feel the similarities. He has even stated to me several times that he doesn't know why he lies so often, for what seem to be, many times, non-issues. He has said it just comes out and he can't stop it. And then once it doesn't, he wants to pretend it never happened. I know it is painful to be on the receiving end of it for me. I am sure it is just as hard for him when he can't stop it.

I would definitely consider some form of alanon meeting. I attended during a past relationship, and a few times after we separated when the deceit was exposed in the 2001/2002 years. We had discussed him attending AA back then during counseling (I suggested). I attended a few alanon meetings. HBS expressed displeasure that I was attending. I think it had more to do with "if I attended then what does that say about him". I didn't stop attending because of that, I just stopped going and the MC went onto focus on other things. HBS did not want to go to any meetings, I do not believe he did but I can't honestly recall today if he did go to any. HBS, if you did, please correct me. I just can't seem to recall what came of that topic and I don't want to minimize your efforts because I can't remember.

I am not sure how I put the radical honesty boundary around me. I won't accept anything less, but to know if he crosses it means I have to spend more time (sleeping less) trying to figure out when/where he did. Removing HBS from the home did remove the constant opportunities that arise in a M for honesty. Like me asking things like what did you do today...who joined you for that claim adjusters meeting ... how's your brother doing...did you get a gift for your mom's birthday. They seem simple (to me) as easy ways to have filled my LB with conversation and honesty, but each has easily be a launch pad for lies that may be a "sign" of some bigger problem or might just be another random unstoppable lie.

I do believe in myself lately. I did before I met HBS in 1995/1996. I spent 2 years single trying to figure out why I dated some losers (and what type of a loser I was to them in the relationship as I am sure it was felt mutually). I decided to stay single and learn who I was. Figured it was really hard to know when I found a good relationship when I didn't know what I found important in a relationship. I also figured if I was going to want to look for a guy with traits A, B & C, I felt I better darn well know what I bring to the table. What values did I have, what activities did I enjoy...who was I and why would someone want to date me.

This is very hard to write...but no, I do not believe in HBS. I do not think my statement will surprise him. I used to for the M. I don't think he can change. I don't know that he really wants to or at least that is how his behaviors talk louder than his words. But I can't say I will ever not hope that he won't for the kids. They need to know their dad as he really is...including the warts. I know from growing up a perfectionist in training how devastating and lonely that is. You can never let anyone really inside for fear of their judgment or losing them. You fear failure more than you fear anything else. Your self esteem is 100% dependent on what others think of you. It is a crappy roller coaster. I had to get off.

When I met HBS I was at a place in my life I have said and do say (might sound non-MB) where I no longer "needed" a man in my life. I wanted one. I wanted to share myself, I wanted that 1-on-1 intimacy and I thought I finally knew what I brought to that table...including the warts. I really wanted to be married and share one life.

I know when I met HBS I really respected him, I admired him. I thought he really seemed to be comfortable in his own skin. He seemed really comfortable with me asking or telling things about me and what I was looking for, and what I could offer. I asked a lot of questions (kids, career, life ambitions, desires and dreams, beliefs about gambling and alcohol). I offered myself up for "inspection" and pretty much wore my life experiences on my sleeve.

What I know now is that I did hear all the right answers because that is how he chose to reply. I didn't suspect he was lying.

Example - I said I had a past boyfriend that had addiction issues (gambling, drugs and sex). He was "in recovery" for the drugs and the sex...but I didn't know until later (many, many dollars later) the gambling had developed. I am not comfortable with gambling (I make no bones about my position on this) but I had no reason to think HBS had any issues with it then. I told all of the details of my past to HBS because he had a Monday night poker game weekly and I knew this could be a road block for me for any longer term relationship if not addressed. I expressed my concerns due to my past experience with it, but also said I was willing to accept some gambling within guidelines because I also recognized HBS wasn't my ex-BF so I needed to find a balance on the topic. Despite having discussed details like he would not gamble in secrecy or go to casinos without me knowing, would not gamble online for real money, would not allow the "poker gang" to smoke pot on the nights he hosted in our home (again, I make no bones about my position on drugs either) even if other hosts allowed it, and would always disclose to me what he won/lost, then I felt like I would accept his gambling for its entertainment value he said it was. I later found out that he said all of those things but then did them all (except I don't really know if he allowed them to smoke pot at our house) behind my back and lied to my face so he could have his way and a happy supportive wife all at the same time.

Take that pattern, change up the topic, and you have my life. So no, based on his continued patterns of secrecy, I do not believe in HBS.

(end of first series)

Lion/LOG

HBS,

I'm sorry I replied to Lion on your thread. I thought I was on hers and messed up.

Would you please do the historical honesty questionnaire for yourself? In each sentence you write, you have the chance to unravel a bunch of the lies inside you, the set stories you have told yourself of how it was...and what happened...

and see it fresh...raw...and real. And you can make tick marks on the upper right hand corner each time you want to lie and don't...and on the left for each time you did lie and caught yourself.

Tick yourself off, sorta.



Do this for yourself...which is doing it for the marriage. You are married. Doesn't matter what Lion actually does...you have to end this self-deception habit for yourself whether you save your marriage or not.

I wish you'd go to AA or Alanon meetings, too (different ones from Lion's) because of the honesty/image issue. Get "Healing the shame that binds us" by John Bradshaw...

because you chose to bring three children into this world, created new life, and you will not stop being their father. And if you want children like me (who grow up to do a ton of harm), then don't do what it takes to be honest...like my father, 'k? I guarantee you that I knew when he was lying, just like my mother knew when I was, and when he was...

and he doesn't get that he doesn't get it.

Don't do that to your children, 'k? You can really make amends to your wife and the marriage...and to yourself. Not dependent on Lion's choices...choose to act from love before you feel it...for yourself. Fear is the father of lies...you can feel fear and NOT lie...learn it now.

Or you pass it down, as it was passed down...just like the behaviors of alcoholics are passed down throughout generations...long after the alcohol is removed from the equation. It doesn't stop until you do.

LA

PS--Make sure all your email correspondence includes a cc to HBS...and if it's BT who is emailing you, then BT, be a friend of the marriage and cc Lion, too, 'k? We develop the honesty habit by NOT assessing it's necessity...we just act transparent all the time, helps us let go the response.

To the Forum,

Seven weeks ago to the day, I was invited to this site and this program by my wife, who told me she had embraced it as her future, either with me or her next companion. After lots of reading and investigation, I also embraced it.

Five weeks ago to this day, I came to this forum and posted for the first time, primarily on my failings and my flaws, and asked for guidance, understanding and advice. Both before and since then, I have not been perfect, nor have I ever held myself out to be.

What has happened in the weeks that have has gone a long way toward breaking my soul.

I take significant issue with the �facts� as stated in my wife�s most recent posts. Sandy has suggested that responding to my wife on these issues on this forum will serve no further purpose, and I reluctantly agree. I will not be engaging in bickering, correcting and arguing with her here, which would only further abuse the good will of this forum. But it is not easy to sit and do nothing when you are unfairly attacked as I believe I have been.

I do not plan on posting again on these issues between us, but will watch and respond to posts related to my issues, my work and my recovery. I am continuing to work with Sandy and, through her, Dr. Harley, on the issues I have candidly admitted have contributed to our current situation. I have made and will continue to make the improvements I am striving for in my life.

I ask only that you keep these facts in mind as you consider my wife�s past and future posts, and know that my silence and/or failure to respond should not in any way be taken as agreement with her statements.

HBS
-----------
Me 41
W 39

Married 10 years, together 13

LA, thanks, as always, for your kind and insightful words. I don't know if you do it on purpose, but you have a writing style that compels the reader to read your posts several times--often seeing new things in each successive reading.

I have filled out the Historical Honesty sheet, and have a separate notepad (on computer) that I have been using to update as other things pop into my mind. It is important for me, and has been very helpful and will continue to be as I move forward, alone or with my wife.

I have every intention of changing this destructive behavior, and notwithstanding the rough waters these past few weeks, it has felt very good. I am accountable to Sandy, (and to a lesser extent to my parents, who know just enough about MB to be dangerous, if you know what I mean ) I will continue this to be for as long as she�ll allow me to do so.

I have tonight free, so I found a local Alanon meeting and am going to go. Thanks for the gentle pushes. It�s easy right now to get wrapped up in the nothingness. But as Steve H told me, without a fixed goal, you�re just on a walk in the woods.....

HBS
_____________
Me 41
W 39

Married 10 years, together 13

3 Kids: 5, 2 and 1

I posted the corollary to this in her thread:

The agreement to work on it make it safes for you to be honest.

As long as the axe of her bailing on the marriage is out there, it's not safe for you to be honest.

You want it to be safe to be honest, but are unwilling to be honest until she makes it safe.

She wants you to be honest, but she is unwilling to make it safe for you to be honest.

One of you has to go first.

Why not you?

LA,

Went to a local Alanon last night and enjoyed it. It was an all mens' group. Gathered the literature and had some good small group talks. I'm sure it's not the reason to go, but it was helpful to hear about some of the men who are far worse of than me (wife's in jail, kids in social service custody, etc). Hard to have a self-pity party after that.

The message for the week was that life provides adversity so that the person experiencing it can use it as a chance to learn and grow.

Thanks to you and the others who had suggested it. I will likely continue....

HBS
_____________
Me 41
W 39

Married 10 years, together 13

3 Kids: 5, 2 and 1

A goal and a plan...

congrats on going to your first meeting; and for picking the all-men's group. Good choices. They recommend you do six meetings in one week, six different groups.

Transparency is the key to breaking your deception habits.

It's the new boundary you hold yourself to...so you cc your w on all emails; give her access to anything you've hidden (and most likely justified purchasing/hiding); tell her where you are and what you're doing and where you will be.

This doesn't make her your accountability partner...this makes you accountable. Begins flexing the boundary muscle around yourself...and you'll hear an inner voice more clearly telling you all the reasons you shouldn't have to do this...

and you'll do it anyway.

Did you come away cherishing your w? Is that what you meant by others far worse off than you?

Would you also consider doing a resentment timeline? It's where you write down times in your marriage where you felt resentment over your partner's actions...do it chronologically. Then sit with it...revisit it.

I would advise you to scour your "nothingness"...stay aware when you're in it...it's the habit already formed...and part of the self-deception recipe. Awareness replaces judgment inside...which is another part of honesty...we have a belief that we need "down time" to shut off our brains, combat our stress, and actually cultivate escape as a coping skill--and part of being present, here and now, is an escape from our focus on the past and the future (which skips over the present)...yet we can go overboard, into the nothingness, into the just-the-next-thing-to-do...and you're looking for true balance now. So look inward and listen...be curious about your mind and heart and how the two talk and don't talk...

And exercise vigilance for what you hide from your spouse...because you also hide stuff from yourself. That's your new past, 'k?

LA

Um, I havent PM'd anyone on these boards.

Congrats on going to meetings HBS!

And I am rooting for you in your plan. Sounds like people have good suggestions for helping you unlearn this bad habit and replace it with good ones.

You have many things going for you to help you with this. Have faith in yourself.

To me, the ultimate quality of the human being is self-awareness.

We think. We see ourselves.

And we can learn.

There is nothing that you cannot change about yourself if you are sufficiently motivated.

I absolutely agree with other posters that this is more than about your marraige. You absolutely have to do this for yourself, and your kids, your wife and your marraige.

I will tell you, as you start to get it, as you begin to stop lying, you are going to be amazed.

The lies are a rubber band around your chest. You dont realize it now, because its "always" been there, but as you cut it away, you will be able to breath, finally. You will feel so free and alive.

It was a wonderful moment in my life when I realized it.

Look forward to your moment. Run to it, and seize it.

BT,

I meant by email. The PM feature is disabled on MB.

If you email HBS, would you consider cc'ing his Lion? To me, you are pivotal to HBS's recovery.

Might not be you that Lion references...might be someone else. Whoever, please cc either way...emailing to Lion or to HBS. Active honesty.

LA

Um, ok, I havent talked to anyone on MB boards outside public boards. I am not in contact with HBS or Lion in any way outside what you see me posting on their threads.

If thats cleared up, I dont think I am the one "pivotal to HBS's recovery" that you mentioned right? You are referring to whoever is emailing or PM'ing or whatever right?

It is Fred_in_VA that has/is emailing HBS privately. HBS said he got the personal email right off Fred's profile. I based on that, I am guessing it was HBS that reached out first.

Not sure if there are others off MB. Not sure if the disposable cell phones are related to anything here...or something else. Found other receipts for the same so there are more going back to at least early May.

HBS has not said anything to me on the topic of Fred or the cell phones or anything else MB. But he knows I know because I told him in an email. Now on this thread, he will know I know there are mutliple ones, all so far paid in cash.

He did give me the passwords to some of his gambling sites after I told him I saw one site was opened on the 14th while I was away. On the topic of whether he opened the site, I guess I do believe him. I would feel sick if I am wrong on that but at context of what he posted. I thaked him for providing me the info.

Unrelated question - is there spell check on this site when you are posting? I am a bad typist (fast hunt and peck but gotta look at the key board) and a less than steller (spelled right?) speller. I have been trying to compose stuff in my hotmail account and copy/paste back here just so I can use spell check. Cumbersome. Any one know?

BT,

I was hoping it was you. My bad. Yes, I see you as pivotal.

Lion,

I was waiting for HBS to address both of those...the email and the cell(s).

LA

Thanks LA.

No acknowledgement from HBS to me either, re: post here on disposable cells or to my email to him personally. Not copied on any emails either. Just so you know. And I don't expect to either.

I have noticed some other behaviors or issues as well. I am choosing not to engage.

We did meet with a mediator yesterday. We put together a parenting calendar for the next 6 weeks. I am waiting on his reply if he is comfortable choosing this mediator (recommended by both of our attorneys) as I think we both like and respected her.

It has been a good several days. I am working on my own peace.
All for now.

Loving,

I couldn't answer your questions, or those of my wife's, for reasons that have now come out (via the apparent implosion of my marriage). I have been emailing off MB to get advice and encouragment on snooping given my wife's conduct these past months, the vast majority of which still has not come out on this forum. Needless to say, I couldn't "cc" LoG on these.

The pre-paid cell phone (the first I've ever purchased) was bought to use as a GPS for W's car. See Melody's link here. http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2370584&page=1

Again, no way to explain this, so I remained silent. I wish things had gone differently, and still have not given up on my marriage....

HBS