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Could I ask you some general questions about FM alcoholics?
Nesre
M 29 yrs
DS 28 DD 18
Me 53 FWH FBS
MTA signed 5/11/2011
D final 5/16/2011
Free.... and going wherever the big guy wants me to go......
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Hi nesre! What is an "FM" alcoholic?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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FM=Female alcoholic =real alcoholic + wayward wife
Nesre
M 29 yrs
DS 28 DD 18
Me 53 FWH FBS
MTA signed 5/11/2011
D final 5/16/2011
Free.... and going wherever the big guy wants me to go......
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Sure, ask away. I will answer as best I can.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I find myself in left field on MB's at times here because wife has been active alcoholic for the past 10 years.
I attend and work AA, alanon, work with IC who worked under Harley for seven years. God send b/c she uses MB principles and is christian. She also is an addictions counselor.
I try to use all parts from all I have learned. W went through alcohol treatment Nov of 2009. I could see no contact with her and POSOM and she did not drink until Dec 15. Started drinking and OM started popping up just like old times. Expsosed A about Jan 5th 2010. WW semi-moved to an apartment within eyesight of our home about Jan 20th. Gave her a PLB letter. Went dark for about 6 days and she just moved back in when I was gone to work. Basically broke in the house. Sig line is still current and DD and I moved out at the advice of the IC Feb 20. At this time W is 40 days sober. Just started talking and seeing her this weekend. In my PLB letter one of my conditions was to have 30 days sober and working a program of recovery which she is doing. She also wrote and I sent N/c letter.
This may be out of bounds here on this board but I have heard you post to other about attending AA and I have seen where you said you have 20 years + years of sobriety.
I work the AA program and attend the fellowship.
Do you attend AA or do you work the program from the first 164 pages of the BB? Do you work both MB's and AA because if you do it is a rarity.
Do you sponsor other female alcoholics in AA?
I ask this because my story of alcoholism is on page 21 of the BB. Wifes also.
We could also be the couple whos story is in the book LB's.
I ask b/c she is dumping the whole A down with her 4th and 5th step and I feel there are important questions left to ask before we move toward any type of reconciliation.
When I bring questions here and I know its the MB's board I get well I am not familiar with alcoholism or wait until she is done with her drinking. Does this need to be a way differnet approach? Would you if you were sponsoring someone in this postion use a way different approach?
Nesre
M 29 yrs
DS 28 DD 18
Me 53 FWH FBS
MTA signed 5/11/2011
D final 5/16/2011
Free.... and going wherever the big guy wants me to go......
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I ask b/c she is dumping the whole A down with her 4th and 5th step and I feel there are important questions left to ask before we move toward any type of reconciliation. Nesre, she can wait to do her steps 4, 8 and 9, but she cannot use that as an excuse to withhold the truth from you about her affair. She has to do this: The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy. You should not touch her with a 10' pole until she a)comes clean and b)completely and totally affair proofs your marriage. Let her know you will consider reconciliation when she does that. If she wants to wait, then YOU SHOULD WAIT. Another issue I foresee is her going to unisex meetings and/or getting so overly involved in AA that she neglects her marriage. Do you have women's groups in your area she can attend? You and I both know that there are some sick SOBs who attend those meetings, resulting in affairs.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Also, what about opposite sex friendships? Has she ended all those?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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You and I both know that there are some sick SOBs who attend those meetings, resulting in affairs. Ain't that the truth!
Preach the Gospel every day. When necessary, use words.
St. Francis of Assissi
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I ask b/c she is dumping the whole A down with her 4th and 5th step and I feel there are important questions left to ask before we move toward any type of reconciliation. Nesre, she can wait to do her steps 4, 8 and 9, but she cannot use that as an excuse to withhold the truth from you about her affair. SHE IS WORKING WITH A FEMALE SPONSOR WHO SEEMS TO BE KICKING HER A$$. SPONSOR IS MARRIED AND VERY FAMILY ORIENTED. SPONSOR LOST EVERYTHING THREE YEARS AGO. h, KIDS, HOUSE. ALL SHE HAD WAS A GARBAGE BAG FULL OF CLOTHS WHEN SHE SOBERED UP. NOW HAPPILY Md AGAIN AND 4 MONTH OLD BABY, JOB. WIFE DOES ADMIT TO THE A. JUST WONT TALK ABOUT ANY DETAILS. JUST WANTS TO DRAW A LINE AND MOVE ON. I KNOW THE OM. WHEN W IS SOBER SHE SEES HIM FOR WHAT HE IS. A 55 YEAR OLD MAN WITH THE MIND OF A 15 YEAR OLD. HE IS A FUNCTIONING DRUNK. She has to do this: The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible,requires a complete understanding of the affair.[
THE WAY SHE HAS PRESENTED THIS TO ME
SOMEONE WHO ACCEPTED HER AND HER DRINKING BEHAVIOR. WAY TOO MUCH INDEPENDANT BEHAVIOR WITH THE DRINKING.
b] All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, HE IS SINGLE AND I HAVE TALKED TO HI GF SEVERAL TIMES. SHE IS ALSO A FUNCTIONG DRUNK. IN AND OUT OF JAIL.
TALK ABOUT A WW AFFAIRING DOWN BIG TIME.
including the name of the lover,I KNOW HIM
the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, A WHOLE LOT OF DRINKING. HE DRINKS JUST LIKE HER BUT MIXES OXY WITH IT
all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy. [/b] You should not touch her with a 10' pole until she a)comes clean and b)completely and totally affair proofs your marriage. Let her know you will consider reconciliation when she does that. If she wants to wait, then YOU SHOULD WAIT. SHE DOES NOT SEEM INTERESTED AT ALL WHEN SHE IS SOBER. SHE SEES HIM FOR WHAT HE IS. ONE OF MY REQUIREMENTS EVEN TO HAVE CONTACT WITH HER WAS 30 DAYS SOBER/WORK A PROGRAM OF RECOVERY FROM ALCOHOL/N/C WITH OM. ITS HARD FOR ME TO VERIFY N/C HAS BEEN KEPT BUT SHE HAS STAYED WITH PARENTS TO BE CLOSE TO HER SPONSOR. THEY ARE WORKING THE 4TH STEP AND SPONSOR IS CALLING HER ON EVERY TWISTED BEHAVIOR LINE BY LINE POINTING RIGHT BACK TO THE BIG BOOK EVERY TIME. SHE ALSO ATTENDED A MONTH LONG GROUP WHERE THE BB AND THE BIBLE WERE MIXED. SHE IS BEING TRANSPARENT RIGHT NOW AT THE MOMENT BUT INSISTS ON NOT GOING BACKWARDS INTO THE PAST WITH ME. Another issue I foresee is her going to unisex meetings and/or getting so overly involved in AA that she neglects her marriage. WE ARE SEPARATED AT PRESENT. DD16 AND I LEFT B/C SHE WOULD NOT Do you have women's groups in your area she can attend? SHE IS STICKING TO MARRIED FM'S.I ONLY KNOW OF 3 WOMANS GROUPS LOCALLY. You and I both know that there are some sick SOBs who attend those meetings, resulting in affairs. YES...THAT IS ONE OF MY FEARS. EVERYONE IS CAUTIONING ME TO GO VERY SLOW AND I AM. JUST STARTED TO TALK WITH HER AGAIN FRIDAY SINCE SHE SHE IS MEETING THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE PLNB LETTER. AT THIS POINT I SEE CHANGES BUT KNOW TIME WILL TELL IF THEY ARE REAL. WOULD LIKE TO TALK MORE BUT HAVE TO RUN NOW.
M 29 yrs
DS 28 DD 18
Me 53 FWH FBS
MTA signed 5/11/2011
D final 5/16/2011
Free.... and going wherever the big guy wants me to go......
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You and I both know that there are some sick SOBs who attend those meetings, resulting in affairs. Ain't that the truth! Amen !
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Also, what about opposite sex friendships? Has she ended all those? FROM WHAT I GATEHR ALMOST EVERYTHING AT THIS POINT IS IN A GROUP. NO MALES IN ONE ON ONE SITUATIONS. NESRE
M 29 yrs
DS 28 DD 18
Me 53 FWH FBS
MTA signed 5/11/2011
D final 5/16/2011
Free.... and going wherever the big guy wants me to go......
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FRED, PEP
THANKS FOR CHIMING IN. I APPRECIATE IT.
IT GOT SO BAD AT MY HOME GROUP WITH A CERTAIN MAN WE BASICALLY ESCORTED A NEW FEMALE NEWBIE TO HER CAR TO LEAVE WHEN A GUY WOULDNT LEAVE HER ALONE.
NESRE
M 29 yrs
DS 28 DD 18
Me 53 FWH FBS
MTA signed 5/11/2011
D final 5/16/2011
Free.... and going wherever the big guy wants me to go......
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"EVERYONE IS CAUTIONING ME TO GO VERY SLOW AND I AM. JUST STARTED TO TALK WITH HER AGAIN FRIDAY SINCE SHE SHE IS MEETING THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE PLNB LETTER. AT THIS POINT I SEE CHANGES BUT KNOW TIME WILL TELL IF THEY ARE REAL."
It all depends on how you define going slow, doesn't it?
Talking to her at this point can't hurt, unless it does.
KWIM?
If talking to her ( at this very early stage ) gets you emotionally invested, vulnerable, hopeful, etc ... I think you are making a mistake.
I know it is most difficult to manage to maintain zero expectations ... But IMO, that is what your task is right now.
Here are my suggestions:
Go slower than slow.
Meet for one hour over coffee once a week.
No deep relationship talks.
Observe her.
How relaxed vs tense is she?
How often or how easily does she smile, or laugh.
Is she able to maintain eye contact?
Does she make sense?
Does she sound grounded?
Zero expectations.
Observe don't engage emotionally.
Time limit .... A strict time limit.
Just my suggestions.
Best to you.
Last edited by Pepperband; 05/31/10 12:44 PM.
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...THAT IS ONE OF MY FEARS.
EVERYONE IS CAUTIONING ME TO GO VERY SLOW AND I AM. JUST STARTED TO TALK WITH HER AGAIN FRIDAY SINCE SHE SHE IS MEETING THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE PLNB LETTER. AT THIS POINT I SEE CHANGES BUT KNOW TIME WILL TELL IF THEY ARE REAL. Well, she has not met the conditions of your Plan B if she is not cooperating with the MB program. I would lay out your conditions for marital recovery: 1. absolute no contact with OM for life. no opposite sex friendships 2. complete and total honesty about her affairs 3. no leisure time spent apart you get the picture. Lay it out and do not negotiate on one damn thing. If you lower your standards with a drunk, you are asking for trouble. Raise the bar and she will either meet your standards or you will be better off without her. Personally, being an alcoholic myself, I would never marry an alcoholic myself. They are too high risk.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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p.s. and I would be ADAMANT that she attend all female meetings. ADAMANT.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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"Personally, being an alcoholic myself, I would never marry an alcoholic myself. They are too high risk." - MelodyHellLane. I would never knowingly marry an alcoholic either. Key word : knowingly But, too late! I already am married to an alcoholic. He's adorable.  As a sober man, he's my best husband, so far.  The issue is, once you know your spouse is an alcoholic .... Then what? The choices are different. Alcoholics are some of my favorite people. The sober-AA-attending ones, that is. Having said that, if I were single, I would not knowingly marry an addict of ANY variety. Sex addict? Gambling addict? Porn addict? Drug addict? No thank you.
Last edited by Pepperband; 05/31/10 02:01 PM.
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Nesre,
I consider the requirements of reconciliation to be above all.
You need to require complete Openness & Honesty! To think NC or sobriety is enough is foolish, yet many fall in to this way of thinking.
Even the BB says as much;
"The alcoholic is like a tornado roaring his way through the lives of others. Hearts are broken. Sweet relationships are dead. Affections have been uprooted. Selfish and inconsiderate habits have kept the home in turmoil. We feel a man is unthinking when he says that sobriety is enough." (pg. 82 of the third edition)
Last edited by tst; 05/31/10 02:19 PM. Reason: spl chek
Recovery began 10/07;
Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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Through the years, I've witnessed many members of AA that like to cling to the paragraph on pg 82 of the BB that says; "...we feel we have no right to involve another person".
And then there is grand illusion that I do not need to be honest about my wrongs because of the disclaimer, "....except when to do so would injure them or others". (second half of the ninth step)
It's amazing how we cling to our old ideas and support them with what we want to hear.
These same alcoholics convieniently leave out some of Bill W's other thoughts on the same subject from the BB when discussing infidelity. "Perhaps there are some cases where the UTMOST frankness is demanded. No outside can appraise such an intimate situation." and "Each might pray about it, having the other ones happiness uppermost in mind". (pg 82 of the third edition)
We often forget that Bill W wrote this BB in 1939 and the fact that he was not a professional. We know so much more today. Just as Bill said in 1939, ".....we realize we know only a little. God will constently disclose more to you and to us." (pg. 164 of the third edition)
Last edited by tst; 05/31/10 02:22 PM. Reason: added a line
Recovery began 10/07;
Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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p.s. and I would be ADAMANT that she attend all female meetings. ADAMANT. I would agree! This was my wife's requirement for me after my A. The only exception being open meetings that she would attend with me!
Recovery began 10/07;
Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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The issue is, once you know your spouse is an alcoholic .... Then what?
The choices are different. We sober alcoholics do fine married to normals, but 2 alcoholics together is some bad, bad, business. I have seen some disasterous marriages between 2 alcoholics over the years. They almost always end bad because when you have 2 crazy people together, you have craziness. When you have 1 crazy and 1 normal, you get a nice mix as long as the craziness is held at bay by sobriety. But one crazy person can bring that out in the other. When I got divorced, I would NEVER go on a date with an AA because I would never marry one.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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