Maybe I'm just tired of men taking the rap for everything.

If a woman leaves, folks will find some way to blame the man. Even if he's not having an affair, again the majority of the case, and he's not abusive, again the majority of the cases where the woman leaves, it's the man's fault.

Why blame the victim? He's the one being abandoned. He's the one suffering as his wife breaks the vows. Yet he's painted as the one to blame for the marriage imploding.

How do you KNOW that cases like yours are not counted in the 17%? Do you know they are looking at filing stats? Given what Dr H has said, that most women he's encountered who choose divorce are NOT the ones who are abused or betrayed. Are you saying his data set is anecdotal and your set of one or a dozen is more accurate?

That's my problem with all of this. Folks are running with their anecdotes as if they are the typical case. Dr Harley, who has worked with THOUSANDS has a different story to tell. It's not a story of men are bad and women are victims.

Yet we keep reading from folks here how men are dogs, pigs, bad, whatever, and everyone thinks their personal anecdote supports their view.

The problem is, the data from the bigger picture doesn't match. The truth is men are no more and no less sinful, evil, bad, than the women they marry in the big picture.

For every man having an affair, there is woman right there having the affair with him. But it seems we give women a pass and blame men for both halves of the affair equation.

Seeking the truth is NOT misogynistic. In fact, I fight the misandry of blaming men for all the evils and failed families.

Men are by and large NOT choosing divorce. The majority of men who end up divorced are NOT cheating on their wives, nor are they abusive.

They may be clueless, and I've said that time and time again, so I'm not saying there is no reason why the wives who divorce them are unhappy. However, in the majority of cases, they are not the ones who are choosing to break up the family and have a judge tell them when they can or can't see their children.

Until the stats change and men are actually choosing divorce more than 50% of the time, I refuse to accept the recurrent lie that men are abandoning and breaking up their families.

It simply isn't true.

Now you can try to label that as misogyny if you wish. But it does not accurately describe my motive, nor does it change the facts. Your attempt to call into question my character and motives does not change the fact that most men who are divorced by their wives were NOT engaged in marital misconduct.

So label away if that makes you feel any better. But realize your labels do not change the facts. The facts are most divorced men did not beat, cheat or choose the divorce they received.

Yeah and you know what I heard from some people..."Well what did you expect him to do if your WH wasnt happy"..."Well if hes not happy at home of course he was gonna leave"

So I have been blamed for my WH leaving also...Not with everyone, but I was the victim being blamed also...it goes both ways...

I don't know where you see people blaming men specifically - here or in real life. Men may be called pigs but women are called skankho's and worse. I assure you nobody blames the man when the woman cheats.

ITA. Sometimes I find myself feeling a little bit sorry for OW...I can't imagine a life like this and I sure hope the children of these women do not follow in their footsteps.

Scot ~ our OW was single as well and we are well into recovery. They are master manipulators but in some ways that is good...your WH will soon see her for what she truly is.

There's a great quote in (I believe) "Not Just Friends" that says something like:

Quote

When someone has an A, it's often assumed that it's because they were not getting enough out of the M, when actually it's because they were not putting enough into the M".

This would support both your and Mulan's experience, and in fact many of us who are BSs. I wouldn't say my husband fully neglected me pre-A but he WAS very, very into his IBs, which I suppose could be a form of neglect.

Sadly, some do. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this is the basis for certain personality disorders: learned behavior.

I did not connect the dots when my step-daughter was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). In fact, the little I knew of it at the time suggested that I learn to live with the fact that she self-harmed and was unable to maintain stable relationships. I never knew what the underlying cause of her disorder was. Until my wife's disorder openly surfaced (which is my story, and led me here).

The sad truth is that Cluster B personality disorders (Sociopathic/Antisocial, Borderline, Narcissistic and Histrionic) are conditions that are induced at a young age (typically before 15 years-old) by a lack of "proper" nurturing and often family trauma. It is estimated 3% - 4% of the population, or 1 in 30 is sociopathic. That's about 12 million people!

That's astounding.

And with the failure rate and breakdown of the American family occurring at a record pace, I can only believe this percentage will climb higher. Already my step-daughter has been afflicted, and with WW's most recent behaviors, how can her other kids not be affected? Younger step-daughter is already exhibiting tell-tale signs (improper behavior, lack of remorse, self-abuse, etc.).

This is key to why I believe my recovery is dependent on not trying to get her and her children back in my life!

Those divorce and infidelity stats are extremely skewed. For the woman who divorces her husband because she's "in love" with her coworker, but they haven't have sex yet, do you think she's going to answer a survey saying she got divorced because of infidelity? No, she's going to say she got divorced because of incompatibility with her husband. She's going to blame her BH, but take any responsibility herself.

Remember what Dr. Harley said: About 70% of divorces in the US are filed for by women. Now, he also said that most women will not leave their husband until they have another guy lined up. Now they may have been unhappy for a while because of needs not getting met, but they pulled the trigger for D once they found someone else to meet their needs. I guarantee those don't get counted in the statistic. I bet it's more like 50% of divorce is cause by infidelity and the other 50% hold off on getting their needs met until they get divorced.

Men rarely leave their wives for some skank. These ho's are nothing more than cockroaches looking for crumbs at the table of some other woman's life. Why in the world would any decent person volunteer for that? I cannot even fathom the reasons...

AMEN SISTER! And why would a man leave a decent, honorable woman who can control herself by keeping her panties up and leggs closed unless she is opening them for her own man, not someone who has made vows to someone else.

I really believe these crazy women who sleep with MM think they have something so special that a MM would risk his M for them. They don't realize that woman can give a bj to a man and expect little in return. They take prostitution to another level.

My WH did leave me for skankho OW...but he doesnt live with her and as of now still only sees her a few days a week...I am sure WH tells her that his witchy wife wont divorce him or some stupid thing to that effect....So he gets to be a good dad and then have skankho still "on the side"...and he got rid of me, the old ball and chain...

But OW is still ,two and a half years after Dday, settling for scraps....I just dont get it....maybe she only wants scraps like he does and that is why they stay together.

But OW is still ,two and a half years after Dday, settling for scraps....I just dont get it....maybe she only wants scraps like he does and that is why they stay together.

You will NEVER understand the thought processes of a woman who knowingly sleeps with another woman's H. I know I am in my 40s and I never will understand that. My integrity, self-respect and self love means the world to me. I like looking in the mirror and seeing a person who would never hurt another person for my own selfish gains. Your DH's OW is a low life POS who doesn't love herself. You are right they deserve each other. God has just cleared him out of your life to allow for a real man who doesn't need a harem of women to make him feel like a man.

Your WH (like mine) is a wh@re and so is OW. Some W just like to get sex on a regular basis and do not want commitment. My WH's OW has 2 small kids and a XH who pays alimoni.So why would she want to jeaopardize that? She just want to get sex from a man who wants the same thing...sex and no commitment. That is why this type of A last because they deserve eachother.
They are both wh@res. No need to call the man a pig. Just call him by the same name you call a woman. They are just the same. Both you WH and mine, I am sure, will not disdain sleeping around, so if OW is not there, and she often isnt
and another W comes along, they will certainly sleep with her. No doubt.
See, this is what we are missing...those kind of men! Can you believe it?

Also, I have a question. In a earlier post on this thread someone said that in the USA adultery is a big stigma. But is it really?
I see that it can easily be offset by the WS saying: I was unhappy for a long time.
As far as I understand hapiness is a right in the USA constitution so when you admit you were not happy even adultery can be condoned..becasue you have the right to be happy no mater what...
That's how my IL see it. Thei precious son was unhappy, what could he do?
blessing

I agree with aetna, heck i do not think ANYTHING has a stigma attached to it anymore.

I can see all the points made on this thread.

I think EEx hit the nail on the head when he said it was more the gender differences though. It is like he said men and women are different when it comes to relationships and that is what an affair is, a relationship.

The "typical" male does not need to be emotionally attached to have sex with a woman (any woman) so it is easier for him to cake eat and have both the OW and his wife.

A "typical" female has to have that emotional connection to have sex with a man and she can not have an emotional connection to more than one person at a time. So she probably does shut out her husband for the OM.

I do not think however that women just divorce their husbands out of the blue for no reason. It is either an affair or he truly has been neglectful. And i think that a lot of men do not realize what neglectful is so they all may say they were not neglectful.

However when you take your wife for granted and she pleads and begs you to quit and you keep doing it, after a while she is going to quit taking it and leave.

And i do not believe she has to have a man waiting, if i were to ever decide to divorce my h (and believe me he has neglected me for years and i am still there and have never cheated), i most certainly would not even WANT another man in the wings. I would want to be alone.

I think however in today's society "typical" is getting less and less the norm and more and more the exception.....

Yeah ours was too and they IMHO are the WORST kind..........

And since neglectful is defined by the person being neglected, if they don't clearly share what that looks like, then the person doing the "neglecting" has no way of knowing they are being neglectful.

I've never said that those who choose divorce or even affairs don't have valid complaints. They likely do. What I've questioned is do they communicate those complaints in a respectful and clear manner that is understood by their spouse.

In some cases they do, and the spouse dismisses them. In other cases, they say nothing, or worse, when their spouse takes the marital temperature, they say "Everything is fine" when it really isn't. They hide how they feel because they don't think they should complain.

So then, when something that looks better comes along, they bail. It could be an affair, it could be the kids have grown and they can leave without as much guilt, or any number of things.


We have to be careful that we don't think our situations always define typical. Just as the case goes that the wife complains and the husband ignores, my case wasn't like that. The first time I heard the words, "I'm not happy" is the day she said she wanted to move out. So was my case typical or atypical? Dunno. In some ways it was very typical. In others, not so much.

I had been shut out for quite a while. I could have counted on one hand the number of times we had SF in that year, and she dropped the ILYBINILWY bomb in September 2003.

So any neglect was not a one-way street.

I have to say the first time i heard anything about our marriage not being good was on d-day, i was so blown away by my d-day that i still can not believe it, my H never once complained to me about being unhappy about anything, as a matter of fact he has always told me (and still does) that i am a great wife. So i had NO idea and i did not get shut out and we were having SF while he was having SF with the OW (before i knew of course) .

Perhaps this is a trait of waywards and not a trait of either gender specifically.......

I will say that you at least should have had a hint since you were being shut out and not receiving SF that something was wrong, you might not have known what but something.......

So yes you are correct in that it goes both ways and if you do not state your complaints then you really have no right to be upset when they happen.

However if you are told about a complaint (and i am sure most women do this because that is just the way we are) and still do nothing about then she should leave. Not have an affair, but leave the marriage. And same goes for the husband, if you do make your compalints known and nothing changes, you should leave, not have an affair but leave the marriage.

This is 100% true. My sitch was a textbook case of this. I was definitely neglected. I DID communicate my needs but clearly I didn't communicate them in a way he understood. Actually looking back critically, I think he had(has)some serious self esteem issues and "picked" me for all the wrong reasons. I was an impoverished single mom in hiding from an abusive, stalking exH - I believe his attraction to me was more of a rescue mission than anything. The thing was, I am also high energy, ambitious, very social, somewhat risk taking and outgoing whereas he is introverted, more of a loner, afraid of risk, and prefers to spend his time staying home and watching tv. Throughout our dating we used to play cards with our friends, go dancing, take weekend road trips out of the blue and do all sorts of fun things. After we married and I was "rescued" I think he thought that I would enjoy staying home and watching tv with him and save all of our money - spending none whatsoever except the bare minimum required to survive. It didn't work out like either of us expected.

So many years later, I was unhappy because I was in an affectionless relationship, had no friends, did nothing, went nowhere and I was going stir crazy in front of the television. He was unhappy because I constantly nagged at him to be affectionate, make friends, do stuff, go out and shut the damn tv off for once (I would have been happy to sit in the back yard but even that was too much for him). I also pursued my career which, at times, involved taking some risks (to him, improving our financial situation was accomplished by working longer hours, not by obtaining a position with higher pay). Being honest with myself, I can see that he did make some efforts - I did manage to get him to sign up for baseball with me - but it was barely scratched the surface.

I did a number of things to "solve" my problem. I emersed myself in my career and actually became fairly successful. I pursued my childhood interest in horses and bought my own - something he was dead-set against since it cost money but I justified it based on my significantly higher salary (he was still working for low hourly wages trying to get over time when he could). I got so involved with it - I was training and competing and I spent most of my weekends at the barn with other like-minded women - hence my social life had resumed. And I was very involved in every extracurricular activity my son was in - and I registered him for a lot. WXH went to 2 or 3 events over DS's entire childhood but I went to them all. I even took a few trips to visit family without WXH and a couple of weekend road trips with friends over the years. All in all, I had a very fulfilling life and though I had grieved the fact that I was rather partnerless, I knew that this was what my marriage was and there was nothing I could do to change him - all I could do was be happy with what I had. And I was.

But all that did was contribute to my neglect of him. I can't honestly say I gave his happiness much thought during this time. He didn't appear unhappy. If he complained about something, I tried to fix it but I didn't go out of my way trying to please him. Our sex life waned - any effort I had once made to squeeze some affection out of him I'd long since given up. He had once told me he'd be affectionate during SF (when I used to complain about it) but he apparently thought affection=SF and never touched me anywhere other than what is covered by a bikini. Again- miscommunication because to me that was the absolute opposite of affection. I could easily imagine him getting his rocks off with a blowup doll in exactly the same manner. I just accepted that I wasn't going to get any affection and didn't pursue it any more. So the only time we had SF was when he initiated and I no longer made myself readily available so even his opportunities were reduced.

So what's the point of telling you all this? Well, despite feeling neglected myself all these years I have to admit that I neglected WXH as well. And it became more than habit - it was a lifestyle by the end. So when OW confided in him with her marital problems (she was already a WW with a previous OM and I'm sure her wayward babble to WXH was full of venom and lies about OWH), WXH probably saw another damsel in distress that he could rescue once more. And since he had a wife (me) who certainly didn't need any rescuing and was happy doing stuff on her own anyway, I guess he decided to stray.

The only difference between WXH and I was that I found my solution without cheating. We both were neglected and we each did something to try to fix our own problems. What I did didn't help the marriage and I wouldn't recommend this route to anyone now, but I still remained true to my vows. What he did destroyed it instantly.

And despite having more or less an independent life where I merely shared an address with WXH, the betrayal hurt terribly. I had no idea he was unhappy until d-day. True, I was neglectful in paying attention to his happiness, but there was nothing to indicate that he was prior to that day. He could have said something but he didn't. If he did attempt to communicate it, perhaps it was in a way I didn't understand. After all, I'd spent many years attempting to communicate my frustrations without success. Perhaps he didn't understand either (though I have problems with this theory as well since I told him straight up in no uncertain terms many, many times).

I still feel I have a bit of one-upmanship over him in all this since I am still, more or less, the same girl he married in that I'm social, outgoing and active. I still feel like he faked this stuff in the beginning until after I said "I do." I would have never married an affectionless, ambitionless, workaholic couch potato who considers family funerals too much of a social event to go to especially when the Leafs are playing (I went to my father's funeral alone). Nevertheless, that's who I ended up with. I tried to make it bearable, and ended up actually making it quite good for myself, though clearly not for him.

It's entirely possible I may have divorced him within a few years even if no affair had happened. DS had moved out the year before d-day and our only financial obligation to him at the time was his college tuition. I had hoped that when we finished with that we could start taking real vacations where we actually travelled somewhere other than visiting family. WXH knew I wanted to do this and perhaps having his A was, in part, a way to escape this fate. As a complete non-risktaker, he likely never would have divorced me over that whereas I quite possibly would have. In the sense that he was the one who became emotionally involved with OW - he was atypical. But in the sense that he likely wouldn't have divorced me otherwise - he actually was typical. In fact, he did say once - which I dismissed as wayward babble but perhaps it was a rare truth - "I only meant to have an affair. I didn't mean to fall in love with her."

I am extremely late to the party, skipped half the thread, but wanted to comment on this.

Yes it's a thread jack, and I'm only partly serious.

75% of divorces are filed by woman. Most woman won't file for divorce unless they are in an affair. Therefore most of that 75% are filed by woman in an affair.

25% of divorces are filed by men, most men will not file for divorce due to being involved in an affair. Therefore most of that 25% is filed by men who are the victim of there wifes affair.

Conclusion
The 10-1 odds of a man leaving his wife for OW when the divorce rate is 50% is possible because 90% of that 50% divorce rate is due to WW's filing, or the BH filing.

Yes, buuuttt...what about the women of that 75% who file that are filing because their husband is in an affair....Hmmmmmmm

ITA.