Here's my view of individuality and and autonomy.

Most couples who are struggling in their relationship are struggling with each other. They have see life as a zero sum game, where no one can get more without someone else having less. Rather than working to better themselves, they work to hold others back. Their marriage is just like their other relationships, a 25%/25% split, with the other 50% being wasted. They are playing "marital chicken", blocking each other, demanding that the other go first.

The minority who can work together have a sort of 50/50 split, with a division of labor, and keeping score. Exceptional marriages, as described by Gregory Popcak, Pepper Schwartz, and others, have a 100/100 partnership. Each spouse gives 100% all the time, doing as much as they can to achieve their goals as a couple, and as individuals.

The difference between these couples is identity strength, a strong sense of who you are, and what you want to become at the end of your life. Many people make the mistake of getting married before they have developed this sense of identity, so their marriage becomes a crutch for their weakness. If they don't outgrow this weakness, they will become more stuck in an unhealthy codependence. If they outgrow this weakness, their spouse may no longer serve their new emotional needs.

If you don't have identity strength, your motives for doing something will be to avoid disappointing other people and not being liked by them. A person with a strong identity is motivated to do the best they can out of a sense of service.

So it is important that husband and wife sit down and write out the qualities they want to define themselves. This is a time that your weaknesses should also become apparent. Then they have to have serious conversations about this, and see if they are working together, or can work together to support these qualities and help each other overcome these weaknesses. Only when you are working off of principles of your character can you know what you want to do with your career, friends, church, school, and other activities.

How well you can do this depends upon where you are individually, and as a couple. For example, if you are financially insecure, every expense and vocational decision has to be negotiated. If you have lots of financial security, you can give each other more autonomy in spending, because you trust them. You agree on limits, and then don't worry about their personal choices inside those limits, which do not affect your marriage in a negative manner. Maybe the economy goes bad, your family income suffers a great decline, so you can't make large purchases without discussing them. But if your marriage is further along the growth path, this will not be stressful at all. A couple with the same income, and same setback, but with a less principled and less mature relationship, will feel very insecure and struggle with each other rather than working together by renegotiating.

I recently read that somewhere... Hmnnn.. I wonder if Mark recently posted it as well...

Anway, I really do agree in theory. And I love POJA in general, because I want both my H and me to be happy. I also love this example, as I think it is a good one.

I always chuckle over your example of the lettuce, because I totally get where you were coming from, and yet I can see how important it is to be able to follow POJA even on small matters--especially when you are spending shared money.

I also think that people can take it too far, and have expectations that are too high of their spouse.

How would it be taken too far? Can you give me an example?

MelodyLane's example of the football game at a friend's house illustrates an important principle of negotiating by thinking positively about what can be done, not what can't be done.

Try not to talk about WHAT your spouse can do or cannot do. Talk about WHY they are going to do it and HOW they are going to do it, and do that in an objective, non-judgemental manner. That puts the conversation into a framework of finding a solution that will be pleasing to both of you, without harming real friendships and business relationships.

"How can you watch the game with Steve without leaving me out?"

"How can I watch the game with Steve without leaving my wife out?"

Erm.

Well, we're talking on another thread about a spouse who wants to bring donuts for the guys at his new job. His wife says she would lose respect for him in feeling like he is trying to "buy" friends.

I don't know why this bothers me so much, even though I understand the fears she has about being used.

Another example (from my own life) is that I have always disliked the long messages my H leaves on people's machines.

Finally, I realized--what does it really have to do with me? Why do I have to make him responsible for the fact that I don't like to think of people being annoyed at him for leaving long messages?

So I just decided if he was leaving a long message and I could hear it, I would step out of the room and do something else.

I think we probably could have POJA'd something... OR, I could take some responsibility for my own feelings.

Also, I think of the person who divorced her spouse because he wouldn't provide DS, even though they could afford a housekeeper.

I think that's too far.

Telly, just a suggestion that helped me tremendously around here. Go find those that are in happy, productive marriages and ask them how they do the POJA. I say this NOT TO DISMISS the advice of those who are not in happy marriages, but to emphasize something very important about the POJA: those who are not accustomed to using POJA have not learned to resolve conflict in their own marriage. They have a very hard time understanding this process because they often still engage in IB themselves.

If anyone does not believe me, go read my own post to Dr Harley about the POJA. I had been here for 6 years and still didn't get it! I figure if I, the Independent Behavior Queen, can learn this, then anyone can.

Some good pointers from Effective Marriage Counseling, Policy of Joint Agreement pg 111-112

..............I came to the realization that problem solving in marriage is a habit, and if I could train couples to become skilled in the habit of win-win negotiation, it would be much easier for them to sustain romantic love.

This approach to problem solving, to make the goal mutual agreement, turns marriage into a partnership instead of a sole proprietorship. It gives the partners an equal standing.

Until a decision is made, couples should continue to negotiate.

I estimate that spouses in about 20 percent of all marriages follow this rule without ever having been introduced to it. They are the marriages that are most successful. But for the remaining 80 percent, the rule may seem ridiculous. They are accustomed to doing what they please, making independent decisions and then fighting about them.

When I first introduce this rule to these couples, they think I am exaggerating. How can any couple make all decisions with enthusiastic agreement? they wonder. Even if they finally agree that some couples do follow this rule, they don't think its possible for the\m.

In practice, spouses who come to enthusiastic agreements don't spend the day asking each other how they feel about every single issue. Most decisions are made with the knowledge that, if asked, they would both agree with enthuiasm. Negotiation begins when one of them raises an objection to an activity or behavior that the other spouse has innocently planned or has already completed. The offending spouse is now on notice that the activity cannot continue in its present form. Discussion that leads to enthuiastic agreement is in order.

As I have stated earlier, Joyce and I have at least one conflict every hour we are together and we're together far more than the fifteen hours a week that I recommend. But in our forty six years of marriage, we've never had an argument. Thats because a conflict triggers a respectful discussion, not a fight. When a conflict arises, we try to discover a win-win resolution that will make both us happy.

I am glad this discussion is happening - when I suggested using the POJA to my XSO he said no way because my standards would be much higher than his and he was right.

For example, he used to have a few drinks with co-workers after work 1-2 times per week. He said there was a standing invitation for me to join but it usually worked out that I couldn't. About half of the coworkers that would attend these events were young, single women and he would sometimes buy their drinks. I wanted to POJA this but we could not get on the same page. To me, I thought he shouldn't go if there weren't many guys going, he should try to sit by the guys instead of the girls, and he shouldn't buy the girls drinks (both for financial and relationship reasons). He could in no way get on board with this so I started trying to rearrange my schedule so I could attend these events. He found this really annoying because I was attending out of jealousy/control rather than wanting to hang out (although I was friendly with everyone while I was there).

In the reverse, if I was going out for drinks with my co-workers and half were single men, I can honestly say he would not have had a problem with it.

I will admit that I tend to be what some would label a jealous person and I had this same issue in a previous relationship as well. So, what I am struggling with when thinking of the future and POJA is, do I need to learn to be more trusting and less suspicious, or should whomever I date/marry accommodate this? When asking for restrictions with behavior toward the opposite sex, what is reasonable and what is too much?

Agreed, Telly. With both examples.

The one you provided of you and your husband simply illustrates how you took responsibilty for yourself and figured out a way to resolve the issue.

Ok, Telly, but this bothers this spouse so it shouldn't be done. And it is disrespectful to diminish things that are important to her. This would drive my own husband CRAZY if I bought food for coworkers.

Now, you and I might not bat an eyelash at this, but that is irrelevant. What is relevant is that it bothers some spouses and if it is done, it results in love bank withdrawals.

It is like my lettuce example. That was not micky mouse to my H! But finding a solution that made us both happy contributed to the feeling of romance in my marriage.


If his long messages are a lovebuster to you, I would discuss it with him and explain that it it is an annoying habit to you. What I would not do is suck it up and allow love bank withdrawals to go unresolved. That is destructive to your marriage.

Jealousy is a rational reaction to a threat to the relationship. If you remove the thing that CAUSES the jealousy, the jealousy goes away. My sugggestion would be to find a husband who does not engage in destructive, reckless behavior, like bar hopping without you.

Opposite sex friendships should be off limits completely if you want to affair proof your marriage.

The more you think in terms of POJA, the less you will have to actually do it, because many times, you will already know how your spouse feels about many things. The more you can actually practice POJA together, the more you will know how your spouse feels, especially if you can get it based on principles they have defining their character - who they want to be.

Even if you think you know their answer, the more you ask them, the more you are SHOWING your respect for them, which is important.

Bingo!!

My DH and I went to the grocery store today and breeeeezed through. We thoroughly enjoyed our shopping trip because a) know what is acceptable to the other and b) know how to resolve conflicts. He flirted with me the entire time. And I flirted with him.

Compare that to our first POJA experience in 2007 where we had a huge fight in the produce section of Kroger and I stormed out of the store.

Telly, one of the worst things you can do in your marriage is suck it up and endure things that annoy you. That leads to lovebank withdrawals and resentment. My H and I have a standing PROMISE to never let things like that go; to always give the other the opportunity to correct the problem.

A complaint is an irritation in a bad marriage, but an opportunity for change in a good marriage.

The key is whether you really let go of it, or suck it up and resent it.

The key is for the offending partner to STOP the behavior.

You have to be careful that your career(s) don't force you to make so many unilateral decisions that one, or both of you, start practicing disrespectful IB. If your spouse is not ready to handle independent decision-making, it is not fair for you to force them into that role by traveling too much for work, or having a job away for long periods of time, like merchant marine, or the military.

On the other hand, if your spouse is an independent, take charge, decision maker by nature, turning them loose on everything they can handle may lead to their "going wild". It's like turning a nicely-trained horse loose for six months - don't surprised if they don't want a bit in their mouth when you come back to get them.

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Thats about like saying one has to be "careful" when they go drunk driving. If they are being careful, they will choose a career that is destructive to their marriage. Traveling jobs are devastating to marriages.

Agreed. But once they stop, letting go is something you have to do.

And you have to think about whether everything that bothers you should bother you. If it shouldn't, then you should stop letting it bother you.

What kind of shirt I wear fishing shouldn't bother my wife, as long as it it not raggedy or printed with something offensive. If she says something about what I have on, I will go change. But she should be asking herself why it bothers her, and if this is really worth wasting thought over it. (I will plant that seed in her head, by asking why she cares, in a respectful way.)

I think what Telly is getting at, and what was the thing that bothered me in CWMI's sitch, is that it's not simply enough for a spouse to say 'I don't like X' and let it be done with it.

It needs to be 'I find that t-shirt really horrible and even the thought of you going about town looking like that gives me the hives. That said, I know you have excellent reasons for liking that shirt, so how about we go shopping for a shirt that makes you feel JUST as good and I like too?'

With the work happy hour: 'It's not good for our relationship for us to be around eligible singles + booze, but I know you really like happy hour because it allows you to socialise, relax and goof off. I want you to be able to have that in a way that includes me/doesn't threaten our R.'

And with CWMI, what bothered me is not that she didn't want H to bring donuts, but that she didn't agree with the NEED behind him wanting to bring donuts. He wanted to leave a good impression, give people something to remember him by, maybe have something to function as a conversation starter. It's natural to want to feel secure and admired. She thinks that's sucking up/setting yourself up to be used later. I agree that he shouldn't bring donuts if she doesn't want him to, but the flip side of that would be that they brainstorm together to find something that would give him the reassurance he felt he needed. And "You can get in on your own merit, so suck it up," ain't it.

And that IS where POJA can go wrong. "Sure, honey, I'll accomodate your preferences. Not happy about not getting to meet a need. Wanna brainstorm so I feel good as well?" "Ehm, no?" "..."

Basically, then what? For one spouse to demand the other relinquish everthing they want, and not do anything to create enthusiasm for that sacrifice - not good. But IB-ing until the spouse wisens up to the idea of MUTUAL satisfaction? Not good either. Keep pushing until your spouse thinks you're LB-ing? Not good either.

H likes Pepperoni sticks. I think they are disgusting. I could ask that he stop eating them but why? It doesn't bother me that he eats them (unless he wants to kiss me right after...he knows that he needs to brush his teeth first!). The only issue would be if he spent too much money on them.

But in my marriage (like many, I assume), we each have a small amount of $$$ that we spend each week as we please. We actually just formally reached this agreement. We always thought we informally had one in place, but turns out that it really bugged my husband that I was harping on saving money but went to Starbucks occasionally, and I wound up defensive, telling him that my 4+ trips to the Bux/week have been trimmed down to maybe 3-4/month because of the financial situation (lovebusters on both sides!)

We agreed that even with our tight finances, we'd each have a small amount of $$$ that fit within our budget, and we'd spend it as we pleased. So now I don't have to cringe if H sees the Starbucks key tag on my key ring and wonders if I've put more money on it.

Under this arrangement, if I wanted to spend $25 on lunch, I could (though that would be OVER my budget for the week ,so that would be a bit ridiculous) and if I wanted to buy pastry, coffee or donuts for office staff, it would come out of this $$ as well.

Might be one way to solve the issue.