[I know for me, that POJA fails when I don't speak up for myself enough... And I think there is some value to figuring out how to POJA so both parties feel good even about the discussion.

The biggest mistake I see people make here is that they engage in regular lovebusters so negotiating is not safe or pleasant. For example, I keep seeing people talking about whether or not a spouse's desires are "reasonable." That is a disrespectful judgement to decide that a spouse's desires are unreasonable.

Where I have become confused is that there are several people here who have gone through seminars and even counseled with SH, and I find myself scratching my head over some things they are doing.

Turn that around. I've seen some stories here (the wife who wanted the husband to WANT to want to do DS) where it's a selfish demand made by one spouse under the guise of POJA.

Some much of the head scratching could be eliminated by Melody's words

"...they used the entire program and both spouses are willing."

This, really, is the heart of the matter when it comes to MBers. Both must see the value in following ALL the methods and WANT to do it.

I'd venture to say this is true for a very small percentage of couple here.

Isn't practicing these tools a good thing, something to be happy about?

<puzzle: who can figure out where I'm posting from? lol>

So I guess my question is when is a request unreasonable?

Not to beat my dead horse any more, but I really believe the best way to be enthusiastic is for each person to have a solid identity

Here's my view of individuality and and autonomy.

Most couples who are struggling in their relationship are struggling with each other. They have see life as a zero sum game, where no one can get more without someone else having less. Rather than working to better themselves, they work to hold others back. Their marriage is just like their other relationships, a 25%/25% split, with the other 50% being wasted. They are playing "marital chicken", blocking each other, demanding that the other go first.

The minority who can work together have a sort of 50/50 split, with a division of labor, and keeping score. Exceptional marriages, as described by Gregory Popcak, Pepper Schwartz, and others, have a 100/100 partnership. Each spouse gives 100% all the time, doing as much as they can to achieve their goals as a couple, and as individuals.

The difference between these couples is identity strength, a strong sense of who you are, and what you want to become at the end of your life. Many people make the mistake of getting married before they have developed this sense of identity, so their marriage becomes a crutch for their weakness. If they don't outgrow this weakness, they will become more stuck in an unhealthy codependence. If they outgrow this weakness, their spouse may no longer serve their new emotional needs.

If you don't have identity strength, your motives for doing something will be to avoid disappointing other people and not being liked by them. A person with a strong identity is motivated to do the best they can out of a sense of service.

So it is important that husband and wife sit down and write out the qualities they want to define themselves. This is a time that your weaknesses should also become apparent. Then they have to have serious conversations about this, and see if they are working together, or can work together to support these qualities and help each other overcome these weaknesses. Only when you are working off of principles of your character can you know what you want to do with your career, friends, church, school, and other activities.

How well you can do this depends upon where you are individually, and as a couple. For example, if you are financially insecure, every expense and vocational decision has to be negotiated. If you have lots of financial security, you can give each other more autonomy in spending, because you trust them. You agree on limits, and then don't worry about their personal choices inside those limits, which do not affect your marriage in a negative manner. Maybe the economy goes bad, your family income suffers a great decline, so you can't make large purchases without discussing them. But if your marriage is further along the growth path, this will not be stressful at all. A couple with the same income, and same setback, but with a less principled and less mature relationship, will feel very insecure and struggle with each other rather than working together by renegotiating.

The discussion of POJA& IB is a good one and reminds me of a situation with my wife.

One Saturday morning, wife was beginning an argument. Probably about something I had done wrong. At this point I glanced out the window and saw my friends car arriving to take me out to play golf. I don't think I had told her at this stage I was plying golf that day.

So I said to wife, "Hold that thought for a second" I casually went to the spare room, grabbed my golf clubs, run down stairs and outside. Wife smelling something was up, like a crazed orc came bounding down the stairs after me.

I reached the car safely and threw clubs and myself in saying "Go, go". Looking out the back window I could see wife standing in the middle of the street screaming "Come back here and fight like a man, you b$$[censored]."

The golf was rubbish but I finished well on the 19th, so it was a good day.

I'm sure some of you are saying, Jack how can I POJA to play golf like you???

It's easy, I think POJA is a form of statics to avoid war so that the relationship can move forward. Eg if your wife wanted to leave work, well her working is the status quo and so enthusiastic agreement is needed for her to stop working. I think everyone can see that.

Well the same applies to me. Playing golf when I want is the status quo and so we would need enthusiastic agreement to change that. Works for me.

Some of you would have picked up and be asking about wifes AOs. I know this is a problem and at the time did not have the tools to deal with it. But hey I'm an easy going guy and I know everyone is a work in progress.

I really believe the best way to be enthusiastic is for each person to have a solid identity. I elaborated on this very early in this thread, but here is another way of stating it in general.

You must have some positive concept of yourself, of who you want to be when you grow up, or when you grow older. You must be looking ahead.