You don't need dishes to eat Burger King!

Oh....<gag>..

I lived in Italy for almost 3 years and the ONLY fast food restaurant in the town we lived in was Burger King.

I was so sick of Burger King that I haven't eaten there since I moved back to the states.

commie

Telly,

I believe what you're missing is an explanation of the two kinds of resentment. There is one kind of resentment caused by your spouse doing something you do not want them to do. There is another kind of resentment caused by not getting what you want to do. There is a real psychological answer to the question "Which is worse?" and there is one of these which is temporary. Taken together, all of these facts justify completely following the POJA.

The first place I saw this concept of the two types of resentment mentioned was in Effective Marriage Counseling, but I think since then I've seen it in a couple of Dr. Harley's other books.

I am more than willing to not do ANYTHING if my wife doesn't approve. For any reason. Whether I think it's "reasonable" or not. Right now, I'm not seeing my own parents (and my children aren't seeing their grandparents) because my wife isn't enthusiastic about it. I formerly had some ideas about how my wife "should" feel about the issues involved. But my ideas were irrelevant; what matters are her feelings. Because my wife's feelings matter, I don't do something I know will cause great emotional harm to her. I'm happy to grant her a "veto" over ALL of my actions, because she means more to me than anything else I want to do.

The POJA doesn't let you expect anything. Taken to its total extreme, your spouse will never do anything at all. If the two of you are following the policy and your spouse does anything, then by definition, it is something your spouse is happy about. That doesn't sound like one person getting to impose their expectations on the other to me.

Here it is, Markos! I wore my poor fingers to the bone this afternoon....

The discussion of POJA& IB is a good one and reminds me of a situation with my wife.

One Saturday morning, wife was beginning an argument. Probably about something I had done wrong. At this point I glanced out the window and saw my friends car arriving to take me out to play golf. I don't think I had told her at this stage I was plying golf that day.

So I said to wife, "Hold that thought for a second" I casually went to the spare room, grabbed my golf clubs, run down stairs and outside. Wife smelling something was up, like a crazed orc came bounding down the stairs after me.

I reached the car safely and threw clubs and myself in saying "Go, go". Looking out the back window I could see wife standing in the middle of the street screaming "Come back here and fight like a man, you b$$[censored]."

The golf was rubbish but I finished well on the 19th, so it was a good day.

I'm sure some of you are saying, Jack how can I POJA to play golf like you???

It's easy, I think POJA is a form of statics to avoid war so that the relationship can move forward. Eg if your wife wanted to leave work, well her working is the status quo and so enthusiastic agreement is needed for her to stop working. I think everyone can see that.

Well the same applies to me. Playing golf when I want is the status quo and so we would need enthusiastic agreement to change that. Works for me.

Some of you would have picked up and be asking about wifes AOs. I know this is a problem and at the time did not have the tools to deal with it. But hey I'm an easy going guy and I know everyone is a work in progress.

Oh she knows. I came home one day and she was wearing one of the shirts. I stopped dead in my tracks staring at the shirt like as if a deadly poisonous spider was crawling up her neck. I have very blatantly told her that her scrubs are ugly and and the shirts that I hate the shirts. So I don't want he wearing the shirts when we're walking around in public but I just don't care what she wears when we're together. I would feel unreasonable to ask her not to wear something when we're not together.





No, the solution is to stop wearing the shirt if it bothers your spouse. This is not the "sacrifice" that Dr Harley refers to in his articles. I already addressed this in my posts so I won't rewrite it.

[/quote]

So I guess my question is when is a request unreasonable? Let�s throw out the shirt. My wife doesn�t like the shirt, it causes her unhappiness, so I won�t wear the shirts. My wife�s ex-husband did not want her to visit her mother�ever. This caused him unhappiness. His ideal was to move to Alaska and live off the land and not have much contact at all with people. So, according to this, my wife must never speak with her mother again because it causes her spouse (ex-spouse) unhappiness.

I don't do things that my husband wouldn't like. I want him to be happy, and (despite some of teh difficulties we sometimes face), he wants me to be happy.

In fact, though it is too late for this summer, we have talked about how much travel would work for both of us next summer--and in the meantime, he has been working with me to (essentially, though we don't use these words) find out what would help me feel enthusiastic about this summer's arrangements.

I appreciate everyone's thoughtful responses, and I guess perhaps my issue is even bigger than whether or not my H never does anything to annoy me or vice versa (though I do believe we should try to change as many of those things as we can).

To me, it is sometimes a matter of doing what's write.

For example, Markos--I respect the fact that you choose not to see your own parents/siblings because it would make your wife unhappy.

I would never ever ask that of my husband, and frankly, I would never do it if my husband asked.

Interestingly, my husband was at one time very uncomfortable with my family, and we worked it out where he simply did not attend family events with me for at least a year.

It was hard for me, but it was the right thing to do. And then once we did start attending events together, we built a plan for how the visits would work so that I could feel good and he could feel good.

I would never expect my H to ask ME not to spend time with my family, and I would never ask him to do that. I believe it would be totally wrong to do.

It isn't totally about what one spouse is willing to do, or what kind of arrangement they are coming up with where they are both enthusiastic. I get it that nothing is actually off the table when it comes to POJA.

I guess I just believe that some things shouldn't be asked of our spouses--that sometimes we DO have to address the issues of our own hearts that might be putting us in a place where we want to ask our spouses to change certain things.

If I, for example (sorry to use your example, Markos--but it sort of strikes home) wanted my H not to have anything to do with his family because of hurts they had caused him/us, such a request would not line up with my own values for my H and myself. So I would do some work on myself so that our choices could be more aligned with our values.

I value being in love with my H and him being in love with me. I really do. But that value does not supercede the idea of 'doing the right thing', and perhaps that's the problem. Perhaps I don't really agree with Dr H. enough to really do MB.

In the case of my husband and the phone messages--I value my husband's right to feel happy and connected with people... to feel heard and satsified with how he has expressed himself, and to be authentic MORE than I value the resolution of my own embarrassment over his long messages.

I live by those values. Who I want my H to be; who I want to be ; who I believe God wants us to be. And I guess there are things I am willing to (genuinely) let go of because my value for each of us to be healthy and whole is a higher one.

Further, while I want to talk to my H about my fears, I do not want those fears to determine his actions. I think that is wrong.

But that is OUR marriage, and MY feelings, and everyone is different.

Side note:

Last night, I got two fingertips caught in the hinge side of teh door that my daughter was closing. It hurt. Horribly. (note: You think you are so tough, and then an injury to 1% of your body has you crying like a baby).

I ran and hid in one of our daughters room to cry because I didn't want to scare them.

My H ran after me, got me ice and Ibuprofen, was sweet and gentle to me--ran to check on D2 who was crying because Mommy had screamed and ran away--then came back to be sweet to me some more.

over and over yesterday, he reiterated to me that he loves me, and can't live without me, and he took me out for a nice dinner alone.

What brought about this tenderness from him? His silent retreat. He said he spent a lot of time talking to his Spiritual Director about us and about our life.

Now, I wasn't thrilled about him taking this trip, but I knew it would be good for him, and I knew that would be good for me. We did sort of "poja" it by talking (and still talking) about what I need to feel connected to hiim given that he will be away so much this summer.

But "don't go" was not an option for me in negotiations. It was always a matter of "what do we do so I can feel good about this situation".

I would not like myself or my marriage very much if the only way I was happy was if my husband just did (or didn't do) what I wanted. I much prefer being flexible in figuring out how we can both be happy with blah-blah-blah.

uh no, that is not how it works. The "status quo" or the default position is to do nothing. What you did was a lovebuster that we call Independent behavior.

That would be a selfish demand to ask your wife never to speak to her parents again and that is not what the POJA is about. Why would your wife agree to that? Remember, she has to agree too. The POJA is about finding an enthusiastic agreement between you both.

People who are not accustomed to using POJA have a tendency to see things in black and white, ie: my way or the highway. But when you are used to proactively looking for solutions, it is much easier to come up with creative solutions.

From Lovebusters, pg 170: [case study of wife Judy, who allowed her sister and BIL, Barbara and Jack, to move in with them when Jack lost his job. Judy's H, Bill, eventually moved out when the relatives would not leave]

How should the Policy of Joint Agreement be applied to a decision that has already been made unilaterally? The damage has already been done, so why not see it through to the bitter end? She wanted her sister and brother-in-law to stay until he could find a job, and from then on she would follow the Policy of Joint Agreement.

I explained to her that when the Policy of Joint Agreement has been violated, and a decision has been made without a joint agreement, a couple must correct the decision as soon as possible. In this case, it meant going back to her decision to invite Jack and Barbara to live with them and making that decision again, this time with the POJA in mind. Since she now knew that Bill would not agree to that arrangement, she had no choice but to ask her sister and BIL to find another place to live. As soon as Jack and Barbara moved out, Bill moved back in.

Telly, I truly get what you are saying. At some point, we each have to determine of what we are asking of our spouses is reasonable and therefore, open to the POJA, or is it something within ourselves that's unreasonable and perhaps needs more introspection before deciding to throw it out on the table to POJA.

Here's where I see the inherent danger in POJA in the "wrong hands" (so to speak)

1. An person can avoid having to look inside him/herself first to determine the reasonableness of the request. Instead, it's easier to just hide behind the POJA concept and say "I feel X so we have to negotiate"

2. Which brings me to point #2. At what point does the "request" really become a disguised selfish demand?

There are a lot of gray areas here and a person just itching to deal with some issues and eventually have his/her own way, could easily manipulate this to his/her advantage.

I do understand POJA and about find a solution both spouses are equally enthusiastic about. Where I�m getting confused is at what point is one request a selfish demand and the other request should be POJA�d. I realize that saying �I don�t like that shirt� is a far cry from �I don�t like your mom�. However, in the one example you say not to wear the shirt. In the other example, you say it�s selfish to say �I�m not comfortable with you talking to your mom ever again.� So when is something selfish and something not.

That, Melody, is where I�m having trouble understanding where the line is to be drawn.

Well exactly Telly, if you made a selfish demand that he just didn't go, then thats not POJAing. He has to be content with whatever plans you put in place just as you do.

I had a similar situation with DH when he had to go away for 3 months training for his new job when I was pregnant with our second. I never did WANT him to go but we figured out a way he could go and do it without me resenting him. That happened to be that he came home to his room every night and talked to me on the webcams and over that 3 months we talked and put a lot of effort into our relationship and I ended the 3 months really happy with how it had worked out for both of us. If I hadn't spoken up and told him I was really unhappy about him going then we wouldn't have had that, and if I had demanded that he not go then we wouldn't have had that experience, but then neither of those would have been POJA.

I understand it that its a selfish demand if your spouse feels that they have no choice but to comply. If your partner has simply stated their feelings "I find that shirt unattractive on you" then its up to you what you do with that, and you'd be well placed to not wear it, but if she says "Never wear that shirt again" then its a selfish demand and leaves no room for thought and negotiation.

Problems come in my experience when one partner DOESN'T speak up about what bothers them and just tries to keep the peace.

If both of you are willing to use POJA and speak up about your feelings then you can rely on your spouse to let you know if your request is not reasonable. Because you will both continue negotiating until you find a solution that you both think is reasonable and its only the 2 of you that have to think so.

kt, my suggestion would be to go start reading this stuff yourself. These are very basic concepts that are explained very well in Lovebusters, His Needs, Her Needs, Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders. That would help you much more than depending on posters to teach you the whole program.

You need to do some footwork here yourself.

Yuo all got me rereading the POJA Q&A articles again. Dr. H says that couples quickly move past the part where they're asking for unreasonable things. That makes snese to me. I've heard quoted that marriage is a people-growing machine. It makes a lot of sense to me that any personal growth necessary would be much better handled most of the time as a couple than one person trial-and-error.

Yes, this is exactly where I struggle.

I would also add that POJA can be a real problem if one spouse doesn't really come to the table. Either because he/she can't get out of giver mode, or because they are uncomfortable with the process, or they feel it's impossible to get to a good solution so they capitulate, or because they and their spouse discuss things so differently that they feel beat up and end up wanting to get out of the conversation as quickly as possible.

I know for me, that POJA fails when I don't speak up for myself enough... And I think there is some value to figuring out how to POJA so both parties feel good even about the discussion.

In the meantime, I think each spouse has a responsibility to really care for the other in the process--to make sure not just that I'm heard, but that my H feels heard as well. To make sure he feels safe discussing things with me, and that I am doing everything in my power to make POJA pleasant and safe and positive--and vice versa.