Nesre,
I don't have much experience in dealing with all of the things your having to face.
But my prayers are with you.
Personally I would limit the contact your DD has with WW; she is obviously not thinking and can not suddenly decide she is going to try and help you parent. Be honest with DD and let her also give her input into decisions like this. It sounds like she wants limited/NC with her mother at this time.
Again, thanks for all your advice to me and hope things get a little easier for you and DD.

MM
Thank you I appreciate this.



Pep
This is still current. Not sure a 6 month lease will be long enough at this point.





Part of the reason I lovingly have named her Bull Dozer.....




Thanks Pep-Your the best. This does help.

Nesre

Nesre,

Been thinking about you, and I hope it's been a good week......

I have thought about your DD situation with the WW and I wish I had the insightful answer.... on one hand the WW is the mother and has a say in the DD life and on the other you have every right to set the rules in your house.....

Given that the WW is probably just trying to make thing more difficult for everyone I would tend to blow her off and raise my DD as best I could ......

I just hate the the DD gets stuck in the middle, good counseling to help her understand where her mother is coming from and how to deal with it has got to help her and I think your spot on in setting that up....

I loved that comment the you made that you set your watch to go off and would stop to pray for the WW..... I'm using that one ...

It's been funny to me how I wouldn't even look at the divorcing threads didn't want to read them, but now I spend most of my time there..... guess it's all about where you are personally....

SC

I owe you an apology-I have not checked my own thread here for a long while.

Thanks with sharing on Bingos thread-That could not have been easy to share. I'm not sure if he had one ounce of empathy for the wifes situation.
Mr. W may have had the right diagnosis. I have been working with a Bi=Polar Sponsee for the last 18 months (now with him having 4 months of sobriety) He always says he thinks he can control his condition the best with BOOZE. After witnessing him on and off meds-The meds control it way better than booze ever does since hes alcoholic. For some reason he forgets to take his meds when he is drinking. I think it cuts the buzz.

I know my situation is a bit different with an active Alcoholic WW. Not much I can do except take care of myself and DD the best way I know how. Hey-Thats why I'm where I am now. Safe, secure, and twenty miles away.

I am trying to get DD back into counseling and she is bucking it at present but I think she will come around.

Since the last incedent DD has seen her mother for about one hour up to this point (almost 3 weeks). Basically DD is Plan Bing mom. Only texting and not calling back from VM's. I have Encouraged her to at least respond. She has chosen not to. DD is old enough to let her mom know how hurtful last visit was and needs to make up her own mind how to deal with it.

I need to respect DD decision how to handle it. There really has not been any earth shaking decisions here-mainly the day to day of work, school. and what to do with free time.

School has been hard for DD-She actually increased her work load-(on bad advice of the school counselor) By taking a college course. Counselor never said it was an advanced COLLEGE course so the grade in the class is really stuggeling there.
We would not have let her sign up for it but counselor didn't think an entry level class would be that hard for DD. She came from rurual school to here and it appears it is.

I know it is getting to WW. That following Monday she sobered up again and has stayed sober. That drunk was five full days. She ended up at her parents again and is now attending an intense spiritual step meeting.
According to parents she is staying sober . FIL let me know not much communication with DD is getting to WW.

I have been real upfront with them about DD's last visit to the house. They seem to understand I am letting DD set a limit on contact with mom.

Kinda waiting it out here. WW may have 30 days shortly but its been to this point many times.

At this point if she really works her program there should be real remorse with ammends. We will see.

Nesre

nesre,

I went to Yellowstone with my 3 brothers on a road trip, (one brother is terminal with brain cancer)...great trip ,wrote about it some on my D thread.

I know you may feel your not making progress but I think your making great strides with your DD, and who knows maybe the WW will actually stay on the wagon !!!

I know you can stay the course, just think about how bad it was before you left the house and how much peace you've had since you've been at the apt. I think everyday that you have that space is a day that you get to heal just a little more.

I head out on a 12 day trip Monday but will be on line.... I'll keep checking on you..... take care

Posted last week on a different thread about female alcoholic now recently sober and MB's. Got some great suggestions from several differnet posters. Thanks to all.

I posted this b/c WW now has about 50 days sober and is working the AA program right from the BB. Also N/C letter was written and delivered back in the first week of March. I mailed it. I think that was done only to gas light me at first. I sent it registered mail and POSOM did not pick it up from the Post Office for about 3 weeks?. WW gave me the letter to mail b-4 DD and I moved out.

These were the only two requirements I put into the PLB letter just to open communication with her again which we started a week ago Friday. This is a bit backwards since DD and I moved out Feb 20th to an apartment. WW WOULD NOT LEAVE>

I cut the end part where I did a summary from all the posts recieved. It helps me to see it in black and white.

If you would like to see the thread it is here


Questions about FM alcoholic

Summary of what I got out of it



I READ THESE POSTS LATE LAST NIGHT. I LET THEM CIRCLE AROUND IN MY HEAD ALL DAY.
THIS IS WHAT I GATHER:

SET THE BAR HIGH
REQUIRE O & H CONCERNING THE A.
NO MALE FRIENDSHIPS
TAKE IT SLOW-EXTREMELY SLOW
NO LIESURE TIME APART
ATTEND FEMALE AA MEETINGS
N/C FOR LIFE WITH OM
SHORT BRIEF MEETINGS W/WW. COFFEE-EAT OUT
NO R TALK/NO EMOTIONAL INVOLVEMENT
ZERO EXPECTATIONS FOR NOW

WATCH BODY SIGNALS-LOOK ME IN THE EYES/TENSE OR RELAXED/SMILES AND LAUGHTER

DID I MISS ANY? ARE THERE OTHER THOUGHTS?

I APPRECIATE ALL THE POSTS AND COMMENTS.

NESRE





SET THE BAR HIGH

Right now I am trying to figure out where the bar needs to be set. I have brought in the MB suggestions-as if they were my own and she seems quite resistant. I don't push the issue.

REQUIRE O & H CONCERNING THE A.

We did speak once this week about the A. I got the impression she did not see the EA as even affecting or damaging to the M. I just used a simple example from my WW days of how damaging it would be if I contacted FOW even today. I think she understood it. I dropped the subject then.

NO MALE FRIENDSHIPS

A former AA member stopped by the house on Friday night for approximately 1 1/2 hours. He has now got his drinking "under control". I was quite upset because this was a person who was an a$$ when drinking and got drunk on the AA program and worked it better than anyone in history. Just ask him-He will tell you. Regardless even if it would have been any male I let her know this upset me. I explained one example of the EP's I have placed upon myself concerning woman.
I do not allow woman (Md or single) inside my house (apt) unless there is a reason they absolutely have to come into the house. Even my DD's friends have to leave if she leaves. They are never alone with me.
WW got hot about this and my RULES. I told her to talk it over with sponsor.
She takled to sponsor last night and the sponsor does talk to single or Md men-They just do not get into her house unless H is present. Only in mixed groups or public places.


TAKE IT SLOW-EXTREMELY SLOW

Just met WW at church. This has been a biggie for her. We have gone-just usually not together. I did not push anything and sat next to her. Even before the service she started R talk about DD.
I have really been listening better when she talks now. Children have been a big issue between us in the past. I tend to be too laid back with dicispline and consequences according to her. DD has taken advantage of our situation before we seperated and several times since. I made no promise to WW about this. I am going to step up and let the results show for themself.

NO LIESURE TIME APART

This will come later.

ATTEND FEMALE AA MEETINGS

Suggested this. Sponsor advised to attend the meetings she is attending until she is strong enough in her own sobriety to go to the womans meetings to pick out or offer to be a sponsor. From what I gather the meetings are full of sick relapsers. How does a sick person help a sick person? There are only about 3 meetings to chose from in the area.
This may come with time.

N/C FOR LIFE WITH OM

WW brought up selling our house to get away from the OM. This is good and bad. The material side of me does not want to move. We live on a lake in about the prettiest setting you could imagine. We have all the toys that go with it. The chances we will get on another lake are very low.

The good side of this is we could move away from OM, get closer to our parents and sibbling's, keep our toys and really make a day or mini-vacation of spending the day on the lake. We would not spend the day on our lake. There are much larger lakes to play on than where we are at.

SHORT BRIEF MEETINGS W/WW. COFFEE-EAT OUT

Have implemented this. Church this morning and then parted ways. She is going to meet her sponsor this pm and finish her 4th and 5th step.
Last night on the phone she said she would like to meet at a park and just get pushed on a swing for a while. I am going to see if toward evening we can do this.

NO R TALK/NO EMOTIONAL INVOLVEMENT

Implementing this also. She now has come the last few days and says she does not know how to go slow. Wants to either be all or nothing. She does not want to hang in limbo. Bit my tongue since I have been in LIMBOLAND for quite some time now.

I change the subject. Try to do something with noise or physical activity. Grab some small easy chore that has been put off. Something where serious talk is hard to do. The few times we have seen each other this is hard to do.

ZERO EXPECTATIONS FOR NOW

I am going to keep listening and try to really hear the simple requests. Not a real plan A. Maybe an Olive Branch of sorts with her behavior being the factor. 50 days is not much time and new behaviors take quite some time to become real.

WATCH BODY SIGNALS-LOOK ME IN THE EYES/TENSE OR RELAXED/SMILES AND LAUGHTER

At this point its a mixed bag. From hour to hour she changes from relaxed and laughing to uptight and crying. I try to acknowledge what I see and hear without getting too heavy. I really belive she wants to get back together and is scared it will not happen. By placing little snipits of MB's out there it may be possible to lead her here somewhere down the road.

I know I need to lead with calmness, understanding, patience. I also need to recieve back out of this R at some point. At this point she is going through a soul searching that I don't think she has ever experienced in her life. I feel like I've been the one carrying the heavy load in the past. Right now I'm kinda in neutral. This needs to shift to her before I jump back in.

DD and I are probably in the best place possible right at this time. This opportunity allows me to get back to some fun activities that I have left at the wayside in the recent past.

Try to post more later.

Nesre

WHY did you move out?

#2386246 - Today at 04:20 AM FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=" Re: Finally-Plan B [Re: nesre] karmasrose
Member

Registered: 06/06/08
Posts: 1462

WHY did you move out?
_________________________
One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger

I will not spend my life this way.

KARMAROSE

TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION I TRADED MY HOME FOR MY SANITY. I KNEW SHE WOULD NOT DRIVE 20 MILES IF DRINKING TO TRY TO GET INTO A SECURITY APARTMENT. I WOULD DO THE SAME AGAIN. WE SAW A MC TOGETHER 3 TIMES UP UNTIL FEB 2008. HER LAST WORDS TO THE WW WERE "I DEMAND YOU STOP ABUSING YOUR H AND DD IMMEDIATELY". WW NEVER WENT BACK AGAIN. WW KEPT UP THE A AND DRINKING.

FROM YOUR SIG LINE:
One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger

THREE C'S OF ALANON-I DIDN'T CAUSE HER ALCOHOLISM-I CAN'T CONTROL IT-I CAN'T CURE IT

AFTER SEVERAL YEARS OF HEAVY DRINKING AND THE A MIXED IN THE BEST SOLUTION I SAW POSSIBLE WAS TO PHYSICALLY DETACH (PLAN B) FROM THE SITUATION AND LET GOD LEAD ME AND DD 16 ON TO A NEW PATH. I CERTAINLY DO NOT WANT DD TO THINK WHAT WE HAD AS A M IS "NORMAL". WW WOULD NOT LEAVE.

I WOULD LIKE MY W TO COME WITH SHOULD SHE CHOOSE SOBRIETY AND RECOMMITMENT TO THE M . THE LIMITS ON WHAT I FOUND AS ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR WERE RUN OVER A LONG TIME AGO. I LIVED WITH WAY TOO MUCH MANIPULATION, GASLIGHTING AND JUST PLAIN OLD CRAZY MAKING FOR WAY TOO LONG. THATS WHAT USING ALCOHOLICS ARE BEST AT AND I LIVED WITH IT AND TRIED TO DEAL WITH IT..

B/C I TRY TO LIVE ALSO WITH THE SUGGESTIONS IN THE BB THE CHAPTER TO WIVES TALKS ABOUT THE RELAPSER AND IS VERY CLEAR. IF THE ALCOHOLIC IS NOT WILLING TO QUIT DRINKING AFTER FOLLOWING THE SUGGESTIONS PRESENTED IN THE BB THEN LEAVE THEM AND START A NEW LIFE BASED ON SPRITUAL PRINCIPLES. LEAVE WITHOUT RANCOR..

SHE HAS HAD THIS PRESENTED MANY TIMES TO HER IN MANY DIFFERENT WAYS.

BASICALLY PLAN B NOT THE TYPICAL MB'S WAY. I WOULD NEVER SUGGEST IT TO ANOTHER POSTER UNLESS ALL AVENUES OF DEALING (COUNSELING/AL-ANON/SUPPORT GROUPS) WITH THE ABUSE WERE ADDRESSED OR PHYSICAL DANGER WERE PRESENT..

WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO IT I AM WILLING TO WALK AWAY RATHER THAN LIVE WITH THE M THE WAY IT WAS. I AM WAY TOO YOUNG TO LIVE OUT THE REST OF MY LIFE WITH A USING ALCOHOLIC AND ALL THE CONSEQUESNCES OF THEIR BEHAVIOR. NO MATTER WHAT THEIR CONSEQUNCES ALWAYS SEEM TO AFFECT THE WHOLE FAMILY .

NESRE

Dear NESRE,

Veering off MB speak, for a moment.

The following is all IMO:

My experience with M recovery after adultery and during my H's first years of sobriety has changed the way I offer advice/suggestions/recommendations when the spouse who strayed is also newly sober.

For me, it is ALL about the sobriety.
I would never apply MB to a dry drunk and expect there might be results similar to MB applied to a "normie".

The only way I could ever see myself mutually filling ENs as equals with a former wayward, is AFTER a few years of AA sobriety.

Not to mention, I had to face my Al-Anon issues at the same time.

The years an alcoholic spends drinking, is years of learning and maturity that have been skipped over.

The years I spent enabling my alcoholic had to be unlearned.

Currently, my H has 14.5 years AA sobriety, and thus it is a pleasure, an absolute pleasure to work together using MB tools.

Before he had a few years of AA sobriety under his belt, he was a huge pain in the azz, even when he was not drinking.

Why am I telling you this?
Because, I wanted to share my reality with you.
Real recovery with your W will probably take twice as long as it might if she were not an alcoholic.

Just FYI from MY point of view.

IVE TRIED TO FIND THE LINK AND IT ALWAYS COMES UP AS NOT FOUND.




THANK YOU PEP.
YOU TRULY ARE A PEACH AND A BLESSING TO THIS BOARD.

YOUR HONEST OPINION HAS BEEN HELPFUL. I KNOW THERE IS A LONG ROAD AHEAD. JUST BECAUSE SHE HAS NOW FOUND SOBRIETY DOES NOT MEAN SHE WILL BE PERFECT OR RELATIONSHIP WILL BE SOMEHOW MAGICALLY CURED.

WE ARE NOW AT A POINT WHERE THE POSSIBILTY OF MARITAL RECOVERY MAY BE POSSIBLE.

NESRE

Nesre,

Glad to see you standing up for your family!!! I've read along and shared your story with LaLa. Unfortunately, we are facing similar struggles and she's refusing to come here and address them. I just wanted to thank you for posting your struggle here because it partly forced me to take a long hard look at my own.

Want2Stay

W2S
Thanks for responding! I feel for your circumstances. I read and posted to your thread. Sure would have liked to see it be different than it is.

Everytime LaLa's thread In The WW's Mind gets bumped I have to look and see if she is back.

I know this is not the place to deal with my situation.

I see an I/C who also is an addictions/mc/family couselor. Very pro M.
I attend Al-Anon, AA, Church, and am involved in service work. I have one sponsee at this time and also host an AA group at a prison once a month.


When I came here I had no clue how A's worked or what could be done. I was very naive about how M worked in general (had my own ideas)and have now learned much better ways. Worked on my own lovebusters as best as I can. Continually working on myself..

Sad to say I have come to the realization that even if the M does not survive I know I will personally survive to be the best person I can be.

I will always stand up for the best for my family regardless of what direction my M goes.

I wish you the best and will pray for your situation

Nesre

NOTE TO SELF:

ANOTHER 50 DAYS SHOT IN THE A$$

JUST TALKED TO DD WHO IS AT THE HOUSE AND INFORMED ME.

THIS IS HOW IT HAS BECOME YEARS.

YOU DESERVE A BETTER LEFE THAN THIS NESRE.

NESRE,

So sorry, I was pulling for you and was so hopeful she would make it.

If anything it reinforces the decision you made to move out being the right one.

Everyone has a braking point and when your not as hurt as you are now I think you need to decide what your limit is going to be. At some point for your own health and your DD you will have to move on.

The one thing I am sure of is the advise your getting from those who have been thru it like Pep has to be better than anything I have to say.

Proud of you ...... You are doing all the right things and the DD will continue to see that. Take care of yourself

#1. You can't CONTROL it.

#2. You can't CURE it.

#3. You didn't CAUSE it.

Thanks Pep.

Outta the pity party.

Bummed out along with this cause I also put my bike up for sale. Gotta have some cash as funds are starting to run low.

Yesterday just reminded me of why I am in recovery not only from the alcohol but the M to. Even if we cant recover the M or even if she never finds sobriety DD and I need to stay out of the crazyness and recover in our own ways.

Nesre

Update

Just wanted to update this mainly for myself & also to ask anyone reading along for my whole family to be in your prayers.

The only way to describe the last three weeks is that it has just been crazymaking.

WW alcoholic has been through the cycle several times with getting drunk for several days-ending up at her parents twice to detox out. It is not there job to do that and wifes sponsor tried to convince them of that. Also detox center again as recently as wednsday this week. I try to stay detached since all I get is gas lighting. She left me a message wednsday morning and I called her back and said I would take her there with no games or backing out when we arrived. She did go in willingly and stayed until thursday afternoon when they released her.

She has now talked twice about suicide when sobering up. She can not hadle the reality of what her life has become and the guilt eats her up.

I think her parents now realize just how mentally sick she is. She needs alcohol just to survive and feel normal.

Very convincing stories to her parents as we have been comparing notes. OM is not even an issue. I have shown them twice where they also have been directly lied to about the A and alcohol. They were giving her money and have promised to stop. They will continue to bring food or items she needs when she requests it or drive her or stay at their house as long as she remains sober.

The worst part of this is DD almost 17 is back and forth and is lying about using. I have caught her in several lies and mom appears to be covering for her. I also found a letter where 2 weeks ago DD was present where the WW was drinking and witnessed her also smoke pot.

Basically WW gave the DD the green light to use "AS LONG AS YOUR DAD DOES NOT FIND OUT". Just guessing here but you don't tell on me for my A and drinking and I won't tell on you for your using comes to mind.

This was at OM's house. The fat bast@rd she hates. I did not even realize DD had become friends with OM's D again. Within the last week they have become good buds again and are back and forth. DD wants to stay out at the house.

WW has drug DD into her [censored] pile and is gonna drag her down with her.

Going to shut off wifes car. The tabs expired july 1st. Took both sets of keys this am when I drove out to the house at 6 am. No one there.

When DD gets back to town her car will be disabled. OM will have to start ponying up here. W has no money left from what I left in Feb and has no access to CC's or bank accounts.

PLB for real this time. DD may choose to live with mom and that has been my greatest fear. . I will be going to a lawer this week and start papers for D. Mainly so we can get a custody study going. Need something in writing or pending here to at least protect my rights. Medical records should be enough to basically self screw my WW. Professional Detox three times within the last six months should be reasonablly solid to stand on. Also recent treatment programs (last 3 yrs) completed and not completed.

I know this is crazy. Thats where I live. I realize most on this board can't even relate to this.
Just please say a prayer for the alcoholic/addict that still suffers. I know from my own experience that if WW is the least bit honest about her drinking that it is fun for about the first hour and then its off to blackoutville. It is personal HELL to come out of.

I'm so sorry.
Prayers for you and yours.

Just a suggestion.
You probably won't like this one.

DD17 needs to be on birth control.
Kids that age who are using, even if it is only "just pot" are also suddenly sexually active ... 9 times out of 10.

Again, sorry.